Fantastic Four #13 SPOILERS

[Subzero89]

Ben's willpower resulting in him overcoming obstacles you wouldn't expect is a part of his character too.

That aspect to the character has taken a backseat in more recent years for some reason.

Sure but that isn't exactly unique to Ben, I think i saw just about every character have at least 1 moment like that. Hulk himself probably has dozens of moments like it.

Bens willpower can only get him so far, it's not really the same thing as Hulks anger which has at times turned him from a guy who can destroy cities to a guy that can destroy planets.

[Subzero89]

A great story, but a theme that's not unique to Grimm.

My main problem aside from the mind control, is that Ewing just spent 22 issues showing How much damage the Hulk can take, and keep going including being cutto pieces or having most of his head blown off, and not only survive, but remain conscious.

And Ben just sorta hits him and in the head. Joe even took a bullet to the head in Banner's body and kept mouthing off.

It just doesn't match up, at all, with what Ewing and Bennett been doing in the Immortal Hulk. Hulk straight up didn't have a healing factor in this. Or resistance to mind control.

Why? Well because then the story wouldn't work.

If you're gonna have Thing beat the Hulk fine, but explain how he overcomes these things.

The timing was Hulks biggest enemy here, Slott was determined to write a Hulk vs Thing story with Thing winning in the end.

Unfortunately it fell in the same time as when Ewing was writing one of the more powerful versions of Hulk, whose whole motto is that he can survive pretty much anything and remain conscious even when he is completely dismembered or hit by teambusters more powerful than either him or Thing like Challenger.

What Slott should have done is somehow write a story where Puppet Master didn't control the Hulk but Banner and then forced Banner to transform into Savage Hulk directly, even then it's not perfect but it does not diminish the insanity and horror of Devil Hulk.

By Slott doing this he kinda diminished the effectiveness and scariness of Devil Hulk that Ewing has spent dozens of issues building up.

In the end it is what it is and i am not really that upset considering i like Ben, he is an extremely likeable character after all.

[Prof. Warren]

A great story, but a theme that's not unique to Grimm.

My main problem aside from the mind control, is that Ewing just spent 22 issues showing How much damage the Hulk can take, and keep going including being cutto pieces or having most of his head blown off, and not only survive, but remain conscious.

And Ben just sorta hits him and in the head. Joe even took a bullet to the head in Banner's body and kept mouthing off.

It just doesn't match up, at all, with what Ewing and Bennett been doing in the Immortal Hulk. Hulk straight up didn't have a healing factor in this. Or resistance to mind control.

Why? Well because then the story wouldn't work.

If you're gonna have Thing beat the Hulk fine, but explain how he overcomes these things.

No matter what you show, someone's going to cry foul. That's just how it is with fans.

Ben clobbers The Hulk this time around with a punch that he puts everything into. Sometimes that's all it takes. There's nothing to explain.

How often in boxing has an underdog scored a surprise victory? Many times. It happens.

If all winning a fight was about came down to pure statistics, there wouldn't be a need to fight at all. You'd put the data into a computer and know the winner without a single punch being thrown. There are many factors that go into a fight and the outcome can never be fully guaranteed.

Of course Ben and the Hulk will fight again eventually and it will go a whole different way when they do. That will be a different story for a different time.

This one was a good read. One of the first FF's I ever read was a Hulk vs. Thing issue (#112) so I have a soft spot for their face-offs. This one sits nicely with some of my favorites.

[Crimz]

Sure but that isn't exactly unique to Ben, I think i saw just about every character have at least 1 moment like that. Hulk himself probably has dozens of moments like it.

Bens willpower can only get him so far, it's not really the same thing as Hulks anger which has at times turned him from a guy who can destroy cities to a guy that can destroy planets.

Never said it was unique, just a valid reason why it happened. I don't see why it's so far-fetched here when we've seen countless examples of willpower overcoming impossible odds.

Plus this run obviously has the intent of making Ben stronger as a few issues earlier he tanked a blast from Galactus. This is just the next step in that plan.

[Subzero89]

Never said it was unique, it's still a reason why it happened.

Plus this run obviously has the intent of making Ben stronger as a few issues earlier he tanked a blast from Galactus. This is just the next step in that plan.

Sure but even by Bens own admission here, he is not stronger than Hulk and regardless of what Slott plans he still never will be.

But i get the intent of the comic even though it was executed poorly IMO, this was Ben's Rocky Balboa moment. He somehow stayed conscious through punches that literally broke his body while during the entire thing he only damaged Hulk once visibly and then knocked him out. Again i get the intent, i feel like Slott could have done a somewhat better job with it overall.

I know some don't care or don't need any explanations to these things but i do and thats fine we all care about different things, but i don't want Hulk to pull a win from his ass against someone like Thanos the same way i don't see Ben pulling out a win from a guy who he struggles to even damage at all and is already at that point broken, weakened and on the verge of collapsing into a coma only to still muster enough strength to win.

[Ravin' Ray]

Maybe Slott came up with Ben's equivalent of Black Bolt's Master Blow.

[Ptrvc]

No matter what you show, someone's going to cry foul. That's just how it is with fans.

Ben clobbers The Hulk this time around with a punch that he puts everything into. Sometimes that's all it takes. There's nothing to explain.

How often in boxing has an underdog scored a surprise victory? Many times. It happens.

If all winning a fight was about came down to pure statistics, there wouldn't be a need to fight at all. You'd put the data into a computer and know the winner without a single punch being thrown. There are many factors that go into a fight and the outcome can never be fully guaranteed.

Of course Ben and the Hulk will fight again eventually and it will go a whole different way when they do. That will be a different story for a different time.

This one was a good read. One of the first FF's I ever read was a Hulk vs. Thing issue (#112) so I have a soft spot for their face-offs. This one sits nicely with some of my favorites.

Boxer's don't have healing factors. Boxer's can't keep fighting with holes in their heads big enough to fit their fists through.

If you slice a boxer into a dozen different pieces he can't put himself back together. Not even Ali.

[Ptrvc]

Never said it was unique, just a valid reason why it happened. I don't see why it's so far-fetched here when we've seen countless examples of willpower overcoming impossible odds.

Plus this run obviously has the intent of making Ben stronger as a few issues earlier he tanked a blast from Galactus. This is just the next step in that plan.

Then have Thing powerup and splatter Hulk's head across the island. Get a rivalry going.

Don't just shut off one characters powerset.

Edit: To clarify I want to see more competitive fights between Hulk and Thing. I think they've been missing from current comics, but that means you gotta raise Grimm up a bit, and show him capable of inflicting the necessary damage on the Hulk to make him notice.

[beetee]

Hulk fans are hilarious when their boy loses. Already Hulk is entering Superman level ridiculous powersets. He can't be killed is all. He can get beat. He got beat.

[phantom1592]

Honestly I think that is a flaw in Ewings Hulk. He's BORING. You've taken a character that is fueled by limitless rage.. one we've seen hold up mountain ranges and who's angry footsteps threaten the entire eastern seaboard... and said Nahhhh he needs MORE POWER!!!!

We've gone beyond 'Strongest one there is' and entered into godlike omnipotence. Worldbreaker should be the top end of Hulk... and he should only be able to REACH that when his good friends betray him and murder his wife. That was always the 'top end' of his rage. Angrier than he ever thought possible and decimated everyone and everything.

Immortal Hulk?? Where's the adventure when NOBODY ANYWHERE is even CLOSE to a threat?

I would love Ben to get back to the top tier of Marvel's strength Bracket... like he was in the 60's and 70's... but I do NOT want him powered up to the point of ridiculousness that Immortal Hulk is. HE needs to be toned back down to only be supremely powerful :P

[Subzero89]

Hulk fans are hilarious when their boy loses. Already Hulk is entering Superman level ridiculous powersets. He can't be killed is all. He can get beat. He got beat.

Immortal Hulk has lost several times already, nobody complained about it. Him losing is not the issue, him losing to a guy he pretty much always beat for 4 decades, especially now in a more powerful than normal version of Hulk is unfortunate, but it's not the end of the world. I have no idea why people like you need to bait others and exaggerate things like Hulk fans came here and started burning the thread, everyone is just having a normal discussion. I am sure Superman fans wouldn't be 100% content if Aquaman beat him in a fist fight.

Honestly I think that is a flaw in Ewings Hulk. He's BORING. You've taken a character that is fueled by limitless rage.. one we've seen hold up mountain ranges and who's angry footsteps threaten the entire eastern seaboard... and said Nahhhh he needs MORE POWER!!!!

We've gone beyond 'Strongest one there is' and entered into godlike omnipotence. Worldbreaker should be the top end of Hulk... and he should only be able to REACH that when his good friends betray him and murder his wife. That was always the 'top end' of his rage. Angrier than he ever thought possible and decimated everyone and everything.

Immortal Hulk?? Where's the adventure when NOBODY ANYWHERE is even CLOSE to a threat?

I would love Ben to get back to the top tier of Marvel's strength Bracket... like he was in the 60's and 70's... but I do NOT want him powered up to the point of ridiculousness that Immortal Hulk is. HE needs to be toned back down to only be supremely powerful :P

Hulk is far from omnipotent even with all his power ups he is still around Superman level and would lose to the likes of Surfer for instance and certainly Thanos and none of these characters are even close to omnipotent either. Besides in his own series he has been very much beatable, mostly by exploiting his weakness which is something that came with him being immortal now, the fact that he can actually be pretty easily countered by anyone carrying UV lamps.

I have a feeling you probably haven't read the series so far, you should check it out, it's pretty great. I mean i am biased but it's pretty much universally praised.

Still one thing i always see, if you make your character more powerful, make his enemies more powerful too, that way neither will get boring.

[Cth]

Immortal Hulk?? Where's the adventure when NOBODY ANYWHERE is even CLOSE to a threat?

To be fair, that's not what the character is about and why many misunderstand how to write him.

Hulk's biggest enemy is himself. And over the years, we've discovered that it's not a war between Hulk and Banner like we originally thought, but Banner's out of control psyche and struggle to contain himself. Does he isolate himself from humanity and risk delving further into that misanthropy becoming what he ultimately fears? Does he try to channel it for good but risk making the war between his selves even worse?

It's literally on the cover of the first issue.. Is he man or is he monster or is he both?

Instead over the years, it's a retread of a few storylines -- The Hulk is a threat/killer/person we should attack/kill/banish on sight (writers who don't get the character) and Hulk is one of the most powerful beings and has immense potential to do massive good or massive harm and ultimately it's up to Banner to walk that fine line.

When fans and writers see the character solely as a dumb, dangerous brick it pigeonholes the character storywise. "When all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail." Traditional superheroes focus on external conflict, while Hulk and a few other anti-heroes concentrate on the internal conflict which is infinitely more interesting and less dependent on the rogues gallery. And like we've seen with Spidey and Batman, they have a tendency to overshadow the main character.

Long story short I'd rather read about that internal struggle than what character is hitting who this week which will inevitably be invalidated by another writer who doesn't understand the character.

[Michael Watkins]

Honestly I think that is a flaw in Ewings Hulk. He's BORING.

i think the major flaw is the art. i haven't been able to get past it. why bother to put such glorious work on the covers if everything is going to be devoid of details and sloppy on the interior. i literally bought the cover with the new abomination on it, ripped the cover off (to keep), and pitched the rest of it. i read the story. and not much was going on. so maybe he's boring. maybe he's not. i just think that better art would save it.

[PlatinumThorns]

i think the major flaw is the art. i haven't been able to get past it. why bother to put such glorious work on the covers if everything is going to be devoid of details and sloppy on the interior. i literally bought the cover with the new abomination on it, ripped the cover off (to keep), and pitched the rest of it. i read the story. and not much was going on. so maybe he's boring. maybe he's not. i just think that better art would save it.

why didn't you just print it out

[Michael Watkins]

why didn't you just print it out

because i prefer to read a story before deciding whether i hate it or not. and i don't have a printer.