Did you love OMD first time around? Well...

[Scott Taylor]

OMD was a story that existed to accomplish an editorially mandated goal. This was fully explained, in explicit terms, with the end goal of OMD being crystal clear.

Doesn't that concern you at all? I mean, the marriage itself wasn't done with that kind of purpose in mind. Not really. It was a gimmick, all of those involved admitted that. But somehow its a gimmick that turned out had legs and suddenly TPTB were petrified at what they had done. And for some reason they panicked and we got ... the 1990s. All that Clone Saga stuff didn't have to happen, you know.

OMD, as you say, was totally different. There was no intended fun in the storytelling, no motivation to tell us a good story or have it be reversible like all comic stories are supposed to be. It was just a ham-handed editorial fiat.

Compare this to the Death of Gwen Stacy. That was reversible, totally. But it was a story that turned out had legs, was good for the overall character and editorial sensed that and let it be all these years.

Anyhow I agree the Strange/Clea thing is intended to be reversible. And that means it was good storytelling.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I mean, the marriage itself wasn't done with that kind of purpose in mind. Not really. It was a gimmick, all of those involved admitted that.

There was a Spider-Man team at the time of the marriage. Editor Jim Salicrup, Writers PAD, and J. M. DeMatteis, David Michelinie, artist Sal Buscema, outgoing Spider-Man editor/writer Jim Owsley. With the exception of Michelinie (and even he got over it eventually) and Owsley (who was personally unpopular in the Spider-Office having feuded with everyone by his own admission)...everyone supported the marriage at the time. Jim Shooter and Stan Lee agreed to the marriage because it proved surprisingly popular (to them) at a Chicago convention and the wider public and it was indeed incredibly popular among most fans at the time (http://jimshooter.com/2011/09/three-...-or-holy.html/).

The only reason the marriage was rushed was because of poor communication between Shooter and Salicrup. It was fault in execution and not intent. And even then, the Wedding Annual is a great issue and still holds up pretty well. The idea that everyone in Marvel opposed it at the time isn't true. In fact it's demonstrably untrue. As is the idea that Slott and others put that every editorial team after that wanted to end it. That's not true either. Salicrup continued to be editor for years after that, and he never would have been okay with removing it. Tom DeFalco who became EIC after Shooter was also in favor of it and never moved once to remove it. It's only the Clone Saga people who wanted to remove it. And you know they wrote the freaking Clone Saga, who gives a damn what they think?

OMD, as you say, was totally different. There was no intended fun in the storytelling, no motivation to tell us a good story or have it be reversible like all comic stories are supposed to be. It was just a ham-handed editorial fiat.

We should be sympathetic because OMD being a terrible story and much worse than the Wedding Annual on every single conceivable metric makes it impossible to defend by most normal standards for those in favor of that editorial decision. So you know the argument to defend it mostly amounts to "F--k you, got mine!" on the part of Pro-OMD people.

[NC_Yankee]

There was a Spider-Man team at the time of the marriage. Editor Jim Salicrup, Writers PAD, and J. M. DeMatteis, David Michelinie, artist Sal Buscema, outgoing Spider-Man editor/writer Jim Owsley. With the exception of Michelinie (and even he got over it eventually) and Owsley (who was personally unpopular in the Spider-Office having feuded with everyone by his own admission)...everyone supported the marriage at the time. Jim Shooter and Stan Lee agreed to the marriage because it proved surprisingly popular (to them) at a Chicago convention and the wider public and it was indeed incredibly popular among most fans at the time (http://jimshooter.com/2011/09/three-...-or-holy.html/).

The only reason the marriage was rushed was because of poor communication between Shooter and Salicrup. It was fault in execution and not intent. And even then, the Wedding Annual is a great issue and still holds up pretty well. The idea that everyone in Marvel opposed it at the time isn't true. In fact it's demonstrably untrue. As is the idea that Slott and others put that every editorial team after that wanted to end it. That's not true either. Salicrup continued to be editor for years after that, and he never would have been okay with removing it. Tom DeFalco who became EIC after Shooter was also in favor of it and never moved once to remove it. It's only the Clone Saga people who wanted to remove it. And you know they wrote the freaking Clone Saga, who gives a damn what they think?



We should be sympathetic because OMD being a terrible story and much worse than the Wedding Annual on every single conceivable metric makes it impossible to defend by most normal standards for those in favor of that editorial decision. So you know the argument to defend it mostly amounts to "F--k you, got mine!" on the part of Pro-OMD people.

Winston Churchill once said "You have to be very, very smart to be very, very stupid." I will say I do not read Dr. Strange ( never cared for the character), or Champions, but I can say bringing back ANY variation of OMD is like trying to take a lump of coal and turning it into a bag of diamonds, while "Flipping the bird" to long term ASM readers at the same time. The only good thing( for now) is Mephisto has not popped up in Amazing

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I will say I do not read Dr. Strange ( never cared for the character),

If you can check out Essentials collection of Doctor Strange during the Ditko run. That's one of the best comics ever. Especially in terms of art. You will never see stuff like that anywhere else. Roger Stern's run on Strange is also very very good.

Among Mark Waid's stuff I recommend "JLA Tower of Babel" which was my introduction to DC's main continuity, and I also recommend some of his Fantastic Four stuff, though after Hickman, I find that much of it has dated in comparison. His Daredevil run also won a lot of acclaim though I haven't gotten around to reading that myself.

[NC_Yankee]

If you can check out Essentials collection of Doctor Strange during the Ditko run. That's one of the best comics ever. Especially in terms of art. You will never see stuff like that anywhere else. Roger Stern's run on Strange is also very very good.

Among Mark Waid's stuff I recommend "JLA Tower of Babel" which was my introduction to DC's main continuity, and I also recommend some of his Fantastic Four stuff, though after Hickman, I find that much of it has dated in comparison. His Daredevil run also won a lot of acclaim though I haven't gotten around to reading that myself.

Thank you for the info on Ditko and Strange, I will read.it. One thing that really bothers me.is how "The House Of Ideas" ( aka Marvel), takes bad ideas ( such as OMD and the Clone Saga), and tries to act like they were not only great but popular with readers with constant reminders of them. The sad thing is you do not have to go back to Ditko, Romita, Lee and Conway to.find good ideas executed well. Spencer's work, Spider-Island ( and my overall opinion of Slott's work is not good), and 'Into The Spider-Verse' come to mind. In fact, the animated movie was my favorite Spider-Man film ( Raimi's ASM 2 included). Why? 1: Lady Octopus worked. Until then for me she was a 'D-List' Character who was a gender changed ripoff of Otto. This was different. 2: MJ. She was not a main character but she was done correctly. 3: Special effects. 4: Last but certsinly not least: A great story that although it is Miles tale, shows the importance of Peter as well.

[NC_Yankee]

If you can check out Essentials collection of Doctor Strange during the Ditko run. That's one of the best comics ever. Especially in terms of art. You will never see stuff like that anywhere else. Roger Stern's run on Strange is also very very good.

Among Mark Waid's stuff I recommend "JLA Tower of Babel" which was my introduction to DC's main continuity, and I also recommend some of his Fantastic Four stuff, though after Hickman, I find that much of it has dated in comparison. His Daredevil run also won a lot of acclaim though I haven't gotten around to reading that myself.

Thank you for the info on Ditko and Strange, I will read.it. One thing that really bothers me.is how "The House Of Ideas" ( aka Marvel), takes bad ideas ( such as OMD and the Clone Saga), and tries to act like they were not only great but popular with readers with constant reminders of them. The sad thing is you do not have to go back to Ditko, Romita, Lee and Conway to.find good ideas executed well. Spencer's work, Spider-Island ( and my overall opinion of Slott's work is not good), and 'Into The Spider-Verse' come to mind. In fact, the animated movie was my favorite Spider-Man film ( Raimi's ASM 2 included). Why? 1: Lady Octopus worked. Until then for me she was a 'D-List' Character who was a gender changed ripoff of Otto. This was different. 2: MJ. She was not a main character but she was done correctly. 3: Special effects. 4: Last but certsinly not least: A great story that although it is Miles tale, shows the importance of Peter as well.

[FrogMan]

Mephisto isn't big enough the headline an event?

Sorry, that just makes me laugh. ��

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Mephisto isn't big enough the headline an event?

He's not big enough in terms of fame compared to Ultron, Doom, Thanos.