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  1. #61
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    It’s hard to respect the opinions of those that hold the certain identities of others in a negative light and maliciously attack them, but I get what you’re saying.
    I'd caution that there actually are far less who engage in malicious attacks or have a negative view that it seems. The news media has a vested interested in spotlighting such people to boost ratings and to further their political ends. Creators of pop culture tend to exist deeply in a progressive echo chamber, and their depictions of Republicans, conservatives, and Christians are typically caricatures with very little resemblance to real-life Republicans, conservatives, and Christians. Most of us truly aren't what you think we are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    I also get using comics as an escape, as I recall seeing people with depression and the like that found pleasant comfort in reading comics and likes them very much. That said, I don’t think this idea of using comics as escapism should stop writers from writing comic stories with political and social elements, and I think the approach that should be had, if any in particular, is how the politics are handled along with the hopefully good storytelling and characterizations. The majority of people don’t like low quality comics after all.
    The escape provided by comics has been important since I was a kid. My childhood was filled with a great deal of abuse, illness, and death, and I still struggle with severe PTSD and chronic depression. Having some avenue of escape that doesn't have the weight of the real world on it is a real sanity saver. At times, it has truly been a life saver.

  2. #62
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    Interesting for you to say that, because I think I recall seeing some accusing Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, and Joe Simon as being bad people for helping create Whitewash Jones of the Young Allies, which some may find reminiscent of minstrel show racist stereotypes, and hold that against them despite punching Hitler and later creating the more respectable Black Panther.

    It's just a really bizarre scenario, like they were punching Hitler with one hand, and drawing demeaning caricatures of black people with the other.
    Oh absolutely. They made some mistakes for sure. I think they were generally progressive, but there are plenty of those kinds of exceptions that stand out.

  3. #63
    Spectacular Member scourge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikelmcknight72 View Post
    The accusation of sea-lioning very much qualifies as an ad hominem attack. I've read up on the idea of sea-lioning. Sea-lioning has the following qualities.

    1. A presumption that the call for civility by the accused is a pretense rather than sincere. Put another way, the call for civility is presumed to be made in bad faith. In short, it impugns the character of the accused.
    2. An implied lack of willingness on the part of the accuser to enter into a discussion with the accused.

    Not that I've much hope you'll believe it, but my desire for civil discourse is not a pretense, nor is my call for it made in bad faith.

    I'm not prone to accept someone impugning my character without expecting them to back it up. Their willingness to do so, or lack thereof, is informative.
    You do realize that the whole "Wah, you're insulting me and not attacking my position!" is just part of the whole sea-lioning act, right?

    Your position is inherently uncivil and flawed.

    1. "We need more civil discourse and less demonizing of those with whom we disagree."
    This isn't a matter of 'disagreeing'. There is no civil discourse with people who's position is "Everyone that isn't a straight, white, christian male is wrong and should conform to our demands!". Don't want to be demonized, stop acting demonic.

    2. "The comics industry should use more restraint in the insertion of politics into their products, as alienating half of their possible customer base is a poor way to increase sales."
    Comics have always had politics in them. ALWAYS. The only people who seen to cry and whine about it are ones that already weren't going to be buying it and will continue to cry "Politics!!!!" until its actually favoring their points of view and even then probably won't buy it. And further, what precisely do you mean by 'politics'? Because when this line is trotted out it often means any character that's female, non-white, or LGBT is 'Political' and that they don't want them to exist at all or have any kind of focus or spotlight. It also tends to be a call for people to just be quiet and let them continue to be bigots and jerks.

    3. "A lot of folks are looking to entertainment for a temporary escape the unpleasant politics & news. They aren't looking for more politics."
    See the above.

  4. #64
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Oh absolutely. They made some mistakes for sure. I think they were generally progressive, but there are plenty of those kinds of exceptions that stand out.
    I'm inclined to agree, and speaking of which, I'm reminded of Fantastic Four #278-279, which uses the N-word to help get what's said to be valid statement further across, in that a certain paragraph was apparently shown in the letter column. I can't find an image of the actual page, but http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chron..._278-279.shtml typed out it, and it's something I'm inclined to agree with as well:

    Last edited by Electricmastro; 08-18-2019 at 07:39 PM.

  5. #65
    Spectacular Member scourge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Oh absolutely. They made some mistakes for sure. I think they were generally progressive, but there are plenty of those kinds of exceptions that stand out.
    Definitely. They weren't perfect by any means but they definitely leaned progressive.

  6. #66
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scourge View Post
    Definitely. They weren't perfect by any means but they definitely leaned progressive.
    And that's fair, though the idea of "the creators had a clear idea on what was right and what was wrong" perhaps isn't always clear and there after all, at least when it comes to the Golden Age, because of the aforementioned caricatures that come off as racist-driven and demeaning. I suppose the actions of Stan Lee and the others show that one doesn't always have a clear idea on what was right and what was wrong, even with the best of intentions.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 08-18-2019 at 08:00 PM.

  7. #67
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Electricmastro View Post
    And that's fair, though the idea of "the creators had a clear idea on what was right and what was wrong" perhaps isn't always clear and there after all, at least when it comes to the Golden Age, because of the aforementioned caricatures that come off as racist-driven and demeaning. I suppose the actions of Stan Lee and the others show that one doesn't always have a clear idea on what was right and what was wrong, even with the best of intentions.
    Well I didn’t mean that their sense of right and wrong wasn’t subjective. Just that they weren’t afraid to portray what they thought was right. The early Superman is quite different in many ways to the one we know today, as Spiegelman mentioned. He went after wife beaters and strike breakers as often as gangsters. There was nothing apolitical about him. Same with most others of the time.

    Their creators weren’t afraid to miss out on some sales because the actions of the character might not align with a reader’s politics.
    In a lot of ways, what was right and wrong could perhaps be universal....saving a runaway train, for instance. In others, it wasn’t as clear cut.

    Captain America punching Hitler, for example. Many people wanted the US to stay out of the war. That was a popular opinion of the day. Having a superhero on the cover of a comic punching Hitler in the face was a decision made without fear of alienating readers who felt that way. Or perhaps made despite that fear.

    In that sense, I absolutely understand Spiegelman’s essay and I can understand why it would belong in a volume of Golden Age comics. And Marvel balking at it...man, it just seems like they aren’t paying attention to the lessons they try to convey in their stories, doesn’t it?
    Last edited by hawkeyefan; 08-18-2019 at 09:11 PM.

  8. #68
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Well I didn’t mean that their sense of right and wrong wasn’t subjective. Just that they weren’t afraid to portray what they thought was right. The early Superman is quite different in many ways to the one we know today, as Spiegelman mentioned. He went after wife beaters and strike breakers as often as gangsters. There was nothing apolitical about him. Same with most others of the time.

    Their creators weren’t afraid to miss out on some sales because the actions of the character might not align with a reader’s politics.
    In a lot of ways, what was right and wrong could perhaps be universal....saving a runaway train, for instance. In others, it wasn’t as clear cut.

    Captain America punching Hitler, for example. Many people wanted the US to stay out of the war. That was a popular opinion of the day. Having a superhero on the cover of a comic punching Hitler in the face was a decision made without fear of alienating readers who felt that way. Or perhaps made despite that fear.

    In that sense, I absolutely understand Spiegelman’s essay and I can understand why it would belong in a volume of Golden Age comics. And Marvel balking at it...man, it just seems like they aren’t paying attention to the lessons they try to convey in their stories, doesn’t it?
    In a world in which people have the ability to live their lives and be exposed to all sorts of ideas, concerns, and problems, of course sooner or later someone is going to speak up about a problem and suggest what solutions could be done to solve it in the best way they can, and it's right that you should do so. And in Marvel's case, like I touched on above with the screenshot, as long as the material is well-written, well-researched, and just worthy enough to be considered good all around by many accounts, then I see no reason why you should just keep it to yourself, especially if it's very much a valid statement that's deserving of being seen and/or heard by the masses.

  9. #69
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scourge View Post

    There is no civil discourse with people who's position is "Everyone that isn't a straight, white, christian male is wrong and should conform to our demands!". Don't want to be demonized, stop acting demonic.
    Is that really a fair representation of anything mickelmackight has posted in any part of this thread? Or anywhere else??

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Is that really a fair representation of anything mickelmackight has posted in any part of this thread? Or anywhere else??
    With respect, he and others opinion is "Don't say mean things about facists/white supremacists/neo confederates because we should all get along and they have money"

    I dont what to get along with people who think ethno nationalism is a great idea and that killing 40% of the US population is fine. Their money can go elsewhere frankly.

  11. #71
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post

    I dont what to get along with people who think ethno nationalism is a great idea and that killing 40% of the US population is fine. Their money can go elsewhere frankly.
    Can you supply a specific quote from some on this thread that can be fairly interpreted that way??

  12. #72
    Spectacular Member scourge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    Can you supply a specific quote from some on this thread that can be fairly interpreted that way??
    Go read the thread.

  13. #73
    Latverian ambassador Iron Maiden's Avatar
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    Considering Ike Perlmutter not only contributed to Trumps campaign but was on the inauguration committee, unofficially worked with the Committee on Veterans Affairs and is a dues paying member of Trump's Mar-a-Lago, it's not surprising that the essay was pulled. I wish they would have left it in though. Anyone who is old enough to remember Stan's Soapbox columns knows that Stan was probably left of center. I think Jack Kirby would probably draw Trump getting punched by Cap if he were around today. He detested bullies.

  14. #74
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scourge View Post
    Go read the thread.
    In other words you canít supply a specific quote!

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackDaw View Post
    In other words you can’t supply a specific quote!
    Post 13, literaly "Dont offend half the customer base". If your a Trumper then you'll be offended, if your a non Trump conservative you'll be fine. Trumpers support heinous shit either willingly or unwillingly (by the act of supporting Trump).

    Its effectively "The nazis have money so dont be mean to them"

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