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  1. #91
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scourge View Post
    A specific quote was given. You ignored it.

    No mistake was made on my part.

    Now go troll elsewhere.
    Not a specific quote that any fair rational person could interpret as justifying belief that mickelmacknight believes "any one who is not a straight white Chritian male is wrong". Can you produce one??

    Earlier you accused me of "bad faith arguments". Now you accuse me of being a troll. Why do you find it necessary to personalise debate in this way??
    Last edited by JackDaw; 08-19-2019 at 12:12 PM.

  2. #92
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Why in the world would you think that Trump supporters make up HALF of comic buyers??? Or even a "fair wad"??? Trump does NOT have, and never has had, half the population of the US supporting him. He's only got like 30% of voters -- which makes for an even smaller segment of the population.

    And this is NOT about comic sales. Spiegelman's introduction was for a very, very, very niche product with a very limited run that is aimed at quality book collectors. It's a Folio Society book and costs $225. The Folio Society publishes all sorts of "political" classics, so seeing Trump referred to as The Orange Skull isn't going to have their audience clutching pearls. Frankly, I'm amazed it bothers any Marvel fan. For the far more ... snooty audience of the Folio Society, having PULITZER PRIZE winner Spiegelman on the book is far more likely to contribute to sales than Roy Thomas (who I love).

    Second, it's a Golden Age comics reprint, which also has a very limited audience, and certainly doesn't contribute to modern Marvel's sales numbers. Anyone who reads a Golden Age comic first, is not going to run out and find more of that sort of book being published right now.

    Otherwise, I agree with those that say Marvel has always has politics in their books. These particular stories have politics in them. Stan Lee's soapbox often addressed it directly. I don't see why they are shying away from it now.
    I am happy to see "politics" in comics...certainly in the sense they should cover things like corruption, racism, benefits of various forms of government, etc, etc. And certainly for comics aimed primarily at kids I would hope the heroes would be uniformly "good people" (fair minded, against racism, tolerant of different life styles, etc). Marvel has, I think, usually got this right over the years.

    For those comics Marvel produces for adults it can afford to be more nuanced..and maybe show a few heroes that are deeply unpleasant in some ways, heroic in other ways. (Again I think Marvel does a reasonable job of this.)

    I am (I admit) less keen at seeing specific real politicians feature in super hero comics.

    I don't think half comic readers are Trump supporters...but I do think a fair wad probably are.

    On reflection, I think I was wrong in my original opinion, and you're right to say Art S's introduction should have stood.

    But I do...in general..dislike idea of specific real politicians being criticised (or praised) in super hero comics,
    Last edited by JackDaw; 08-19-2019 at 12:08 PM.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reviresco View Post
    Why in the world would you think that Trump supporters make up HALF of comic buyers??? Or even a "fair wad"??? Trump does NOT have, and never has had, half the population of the US supporting him. He's only got like 30% of voters -- which makes for an even smaller segment of the population.

    And this is NOT about comic sales. Spiegelman's introduction was for a very, very, very niche product with a very limited run that is aimed at quality book collectors. It's a Folio Society book and costs $225. The Folio Society publishes all sorts of "political" classics, so seeing Trump referred to as The Orange Skull isn't going to have their audience clutching pearls. Frankly, I'm amazed it bothers any Marvel fan. For the far more ... snooty audience of the Folio Society, having PULITZER PRIZE winner Spiegelman on the book is far more likely to contribute to sales than Roy Thomas (who I love).

    Second, it's a Golden Age comics reprint, which also has a very limited audience, and certainly doesn't contribute to modern Marvel's sales numbers. Anyone who reads a Golden Age comic first, is not going to run out and find more of that sort of book being published right now.

    Otherwise, I agree with those that say Marvel has always has politics in their books. These particular stories have politics in them. Stan Lee's soapbox often addressed it directly. I don't see why they are shying away from it now.
    Quoted for truth.

    The whole thing about "half the audience" doesn't even make sense when less than half of the electorate even voted for Trump in the first place.
    "Obviously not all conservatives are racists/bigots but all racists/bigots claim to be conservative"- Unknown

  4. #94
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    A few points:

    1. Non-progressive doesn't equal Trump supporter. It means non-progressive.
    2. Given the popularity of super hero movies and TV shows, why wouldn't non-progressives be just as interested in all things cape & cowl as progressives?
    3. I've been reading comics for nearly 40 years, and I'm well aware that politics have always had a presence in comics. It seems much more widespread than ever. I'm not proposing its elimination. I'm proposing dialing it back some. That is all.

    I'm on these boards because I love comics, and because I'm interested in civilly engaging with fellow fans. I'm not looking for an echo chamber in which we all agree on everything, or even anything. That'd be pretty darned boring.

  5. #95
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikelmcknight72 View Post
    I'm on these boards because I love comics, and because I'm interested in civilly engaging with fellow fans. I'm not looking for an echo chamber in which we all agree on everything, or even anything. That'd be pretty darned boring.
    Agreed. I mainly go on these boards not just to enjoy talking about comics in general, but as well as explore any potentially meaningfully-deep themes or solutions that can be suggested in regards to any problems within the comics industry and how they can be actively worked towards. I'm not looking for everyone I chat with to agree with me, and I'm sure most people on these boards feel the same way, but I'm also certainly not looking for everyone I chat with to present their dialogue in a manner that's constantly angry, overly-cynical, and has a display butthole behavior all around, regardless of how factual their evidence and research may be.

    This isn't to say I won't acknowledge the world's problems when someone mentions them, but if someone is being a jerk in explaining them, particularly in a manner that's antagonistic, malicious, or self-destructive, then that person shouldn't be surprised if I, as well as others, choose to leave that discussion in favor of having an alternative discussion that's more healthy, yet still productive, overall, because nobody needs unhealthiness in their lives, even when it comes to comics and the politics associated with them.
    Last edited by Electricmastro; 08-19-2019 at 03:18 PM.

  6. #96
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Just curious....has anyone here ever decided not to buy a collection, or any other product now that I think about it, based on the content of the foreword?

    And if so, what product and what was the content that made you decide against buying?

  7. #97
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Just curious....has anyone here ever decided not to buy a collection, or any other product now that I think about it, based on the content of the foreword?

    And if so, what product and what was the content that made you decide against buying?
    Some forewords and introductions are pretty valuable and interesting. Alan Moore wrote an intro for TDKR that’s pretty legendary in that it highlights some ideas that Moore would deal with in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

    So for a niche product it does have value. Likewise, Gaiman’s Sandman had intros by many famous writers. Delaney, Mailer and others.

  8. #98
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Just curious....has anyone here ever decided not to buy a collection, or any other product now that I think about it, based on the content of the foreword?

    And if so, what product and what was the content that made you decide against buying?
    Forewords and afterwords aren't usually noteworthy enough to get this kind of attention, so no. I've usually already made the purchase long before I actually read a foreword and/or an afterword. Of course, I suspect we'll see increased attention on them for a while.

  9. #99
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    A lot of Stephen King's forewards are fun! As for any that made me decide not to buy something, well, I rented Lolita from the library and almost didn't get it because the foreward was almost as long as the actual novel. I mean, it's like the writer was trying-really trying-to justify why you should read Lolita. And, to be fair, you should read Lolita. It's a great novel that really examines post-war America and the manipulative power of perception.

    Actually, it's odd how much that pertains to what we're talking about.

  10. #100
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Some forewords and introductions are pretty valuable and interesting. Alan Moore wrote an intro for TDKR that’s pretty legendary in that it highlights some ideas that Moore would deal with in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

    So for a niche product it does have value. Likewise, Gaiman’s Sandman had intros by many famous writers. Delaney, Mailer and others.
    I agree. I love me a good foreword. Moore did one for Ellis and Cassiday’s Planetary, too, and I liked that. Sandman and Preacher had some good ones. When done well they can help contextualize the actual work, or help explain why it’s important or vital. But I think they remain apart from the work. They’re about the work, not a part of it. As such, they’re easily ignored if one so chooses.

    I don’t know if I can recall one that made me think negatively about the work in question. It’s hard to even imagine such a thing. I’d simply skip over it if it wasn’t to my liking.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikelmcknight72 View Post
    Forewords and afterwords aren't usually noteworthy enough to get this kind of attention, so no. I've usually already made the purchase long before I actually read a foreword and/or an afterword. Of course, I suspect we'll see increased attention on them for a while.
    I agree they’re generally not noteworthy enough to warrant this kind of attention. Which then begs the question “did Marvel make this a bigger deal than it would have been had they included Spiegelman’s foreword?”

    And if the answer is yes, which it seems to be, then they simply should have published it.

  11. #101
    Astonishing Member JackDaw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    Just curious....has anyone here ever decided not to buy a collection, or any other product now that I think about it, based on the content of the foreword?

    And if so, what product and what was the content that made you decide against buying?
    I agree with the other guys, that forewords can be valuable. I can easily see it as a reason why some people buy a particular comic in a premium format.

    But that’s not question you asked, I think...you were wondering if a particular foreword had ever stopped anybody buying.

    It’s not something that has ever stopped me buying or reading a collection.

    I would guess it is something that does have to be considered at some level..but maybe more along the lines of “is being associated with this person or what they have said here” good for the overall company rather than specific sales of the one book.

    If Marvel has a policy to avoid being associated with criticising real living people..which might cause great difficulty at some point..can they afford to make exceptions?

    (And I suspect if exceptions are allowed..part of calculation will include question “if we insult this guy, can he cause real trouble for us?”.)
    Last edited by JackDaw; 08-19-2019 at 10:38 PM.

  12. #102
    Extraordinary Member Holt's Avatar
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    Glad Spiegelmen put Marvel on blast for this. This was lame of them.

  13. #103
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    And in speaking of calling out and finding solutions to go against injustice with, everyone mentions Marvel's Captain America punching fascist lunatics, which is worth mentioning, indeed, but seeing Quality's Hit Comics #2 showcase Neon the Unknown freeing victims of a concentration camp especially resonates with me and is also an example of a Golden Age comic worth mentioning.


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