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  1. #16
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    Apparently there is a super hero punching trump, El Peso Hero lol. Going to have to buy these comics.

  2. #17
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Well no, it's not really appropriate and likely to irritate people who are going to buy the product. But personally I can't begin to mind and think Spiegelman is a really cool guest for a comic essay.
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  3. #18
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    Mu point is, there is a reason why conservative politics aren't usually the "good guy" in media, but there's especially a good reason why stories aren't kind to Trump and the far-right. They are objectively bad and really hard to make sympathetic and relatable characters.
    There is a reason, but not the one you said. The folks who bring you the MSM and entertainment are predominantly progressive, and they tend to exist in an echo chamber. The way they characterize conservative and Christians is rarely even close to accurate. Also, far right and conservative are two different things. Trump doesn't really fit either.

  4. #19
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    Imagine Rejecting Art Spiegelman. The kinda absolute idiocy of that is staggering.

  5. #20
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Donald Trump probably isn't as sneakily conniving and cunningly clever as Red Skull is, as immoral as he is.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikelmcknight72 View Post
    There is a reason, but not the one you said. The folks who bring you the MSM and entertainment are predominantly progressive, and they tend to exist in an echo chamber. The way they characterize conservative and Christians is rarely even close to accurate. Also, far right and conservative are two different things. Trump doesn't really fit either.
    But can you find me one critically accepted and mainstream piece of conservative media-a book or a movie or something-that has been successful in the past 20 or 30 years? Because I honestly can't think of any.

    Also, dude, I know you're on the X-boards. You know they have had several storylines about putting children in camps that refer directly to Trump's policies.

    And I'm not so sure really half of Marvel's readers are right-wing conservatives. And if they are, are those the people Marvel should be courting? Who is spending the money here?

  7. #22
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    But can you find me one critically accepted and mainstream piece of conservative media-a book or a movie or something-that has been successful in the past 20 or 30 years? Because I honestly can't think of any.
    Passion of the Christ for one thing, then you have Three Hundred by Zack Snyder, WWE is quite popular among red and blue states and Vince McMahon's wife works for Trump's administration (or at least did). And you also had the first Roseanne show.

    So I wouldn't say media targeting conservative types isn't popular or viable on the mainstream, if only because people on the left still find it hard to get movies made. OR stories told and so on.

    And I'm not so sure really half of Marvel's readers are right-wing conservatives. And if they are, are those the people Marvel should be courting? Who is spending the money here?
    It's not so much money as it is online clickbait and social media. Comics are read by a small audience, but they tend to create buzz online that can go viral and so on.

    After the failure of Secret Empire and so on, I think Marvel are skeptical of any rocking the boat and are timid.

    I personally think that they made a bigger deal of Spiegelman's intro than it would have been. For one, these are classic golden age comics that only scholars and special fans will read. Spiegelman obviously doesn't speak for Marvel. You get Spiegelman to do an introduction if you want prestige and a touch of class. His readership know who he is and they know that Spiegelman dignifying superhero stuff is itself a rare gesture from the man.

    Still it could be worse. Imagine if they got Alan Moore who's way, way to the left of Spiegelman.

  8. #23
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    But was Secret Empire a true failure? Was it because it alienated half of its audience? Do the numbers reflect that?

    And I'm not sure the first incarnation of Roseanne could really be called conservative. The reboot had conservative chsracters, but it wasn't entirely kind to them, especially considering that Roseanne had to be killed off due to her own actions and, in the show, because of Trump's own policies on healthcare.

    If Marvel could get Alan Moore to write anything for them, I would assume that literal witchcraft was involved.

  9. #24
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    But was Secret Empire a true failure? Was it because it alienated half of its audience? Do the numbers reflect that?
    https://www.ign.com/articles/2017/09...-empire-failed
    https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/08...e-future-drop/
    https://screenrant.com/secret-empire...ales-dc-comic/

    Marvel tend to do a lot of spin on sales numbers and so on. So they'll never outright admit they failed. Marvel have this attitude of "Never apologize".

    If Marvel could get Alan Moore to write anything for them, I would assume that literal witchcraft was involved.
    For a golden age publication featuring Jack Kirby stuff, who Moore continues to admire and express affection for, maybe. Moore never forgave Marvel for renaming Marvelman into Miracleman which they did by bullying Eclipse into doing so. If Marvel didn't do that, Moore might have, maybe, worked for them.

    Getting Art Spiegelman to say yes was a major coup as it was. Now of course they will just confirm the biases and critiques many outsider types have about corporations and so on. While Spiegelman gets another story to tell about another time he stepped on the toes of really powerful figures and so on. He's done that before as has Moore.

  10. #25
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    But those numbers still don't show that event lose half its numbers. And there's plenty of speculation that those numbers could have been from legit event fatigue. Remember, it was after this that we had to wait eighteen months for another large event and we were itching for it. So to blame it all on the loss of conservative readers seems as much of a spin as Marvel's own.

    But that's what I mean, about Moore. If Marvel could lure him back, I would assume that a literal deal with the actual Devil was made.

    Listen, my point is simple: Marvel's creative teams aren't apolitical and there's been plenty of anti-Trump in Marvel even since Secret Empire. The line is still making money, it's not losing money anymore than it was before Trump was voted in, and the fact is, I don't see any evidence that conservatives make up a huge portion of their fanbase. If comics are to survive, then they need to court younger audiences, which are comprised of a lot of liberal leaning people.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosebunse View Post
    But those numbers still don't show that event lose half its numbers. And there's plenty of speculation that those numbers could have been from legit event fatigue. Remember, it was after this that we had to wait eighteen months for another large event and we were itching for it. So to blame it all on the loss of conservative readers seems as much of a spin as Marvel's own.
    What I meant was that Secret Empire's backlash might have made Marvel nervous about leaning in to certain political ideas and matters. That's all.

    I actually agree with you about the fact that the readership for comics isn't conservative. The thing is Secret Empire became controversial and known to people who didn't read the comic simply because of "Captain America is a Nazi" traveled well and made for clickbait and so on, picked up by newsmedia and others and getting a lot of publicity. It's just that well, it turns out there really is such a thing as bad publicity.

    So I think people at Marvel didn't want a headline with "Marvel comic says Trump is a Nazi" which could well have spun out of Spiegelman's intro. I think they were over-reacting but I think that was the fear behind it.

    Listen, my point is simple: Marvel's creative teams aren't apolitical and there's been plenty of anti-Trump in Marvel even since Secret Empire. The line is still making money, it's not losing money anymore than it was before Trump was voted in, and the fact is, I don't see any evidence that conservatives make up a huge portion of their fanbase. If comics are to survive, then they need to court younger audiences, which are comprised of a lot of liberal leaning people.
    I agree with you. I think Marvel were too timid...but there's a lot of method behind fear, just like there's method behind madness.

  12. #27
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    I agree with the fear. Which is why they have gonenin a slightly more subtle direction. Especially since even a lot of liberal readers were put off because they thought that the book was being literal. Both extremes thought the book was saying the same thing and it got weird.

    That being said, I still think that people read way too much into some of the sales figures and don't apply simple and actual apolitical thought into why books are failing.

  13. #28
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    Let's see what Spiegelman wrote.

    The title itself is wrong: "Golden age superheroes were shaped by the rise of fascism"
    The only superhero in that regard is Captain America. Or at least the only one people are familiar with. As for the other heroes back then, like Superman, they were obviously affected by the war, but as soon as the war was over, it was back to business as usual.

    "Comics allowed readers to escape into fantasy by projecting themselves on to invulnerable heroes"

    That's a myth. Or at least only true for some of the readers. The idea that the readers of superhero comics are weaklings with the dream of becoming a super strong Superman or whatever is common amongst armchair psychologists. Another explanation is that kids read comics simply because they enjoy them.

    Auschwitz and Hiroshima make more sense as dark comic book cataclysms than as events in our real world. In today’s all too real world, Captain America’s most nefarious villain, the Red Skull, is alive on screen and an Orange Skull haunts America. International fascism again looms large (how quickly we humans forget – study these golden age comics hard, boys and girls!) and the dislocations that have followed the global economic meltdown of 2008 helped bring us to a point where the planet itself seems likely to melt down. Armageddon seems somehow plausible and we’re all turned into helpless children scared of forces grander than we can imagine, looking for respite and answers in superheroes flying across screens in our chapel of dreams.

    This is just ramblings. As for the Trump reference, it's a deliberate insult. It would be wise not to insult potential byers because of their political views. Especially when arguments, facts and documentation is completely absent, which doesn't belong in a comic book introduction anyway (along with the author's political opinions).
    Asking him to remove the sentence was only reasonable. If Marvel has made a decision to be apolitical, it's better late than never.

    I didn’t think of myself as especially political compared with some of my fellow travellers

    Sorry Art, but that's whataboutism.

    I realised that perhaps it had been irresponsible to be playful about the dire existential threat we now live with

    Existential threat because of Trump? If that's what he means, it's hard to take him serious.

    Perlmutter and his wife have each recently donated $360,000 (the maximum allowed) to the Orange Skull’s “Trump Victory Joint Fundraising Committee” for 2020.

    Does Perlmutter have anything to do with Marvel asking him to remove the Trump reference? If so, how? If not, what's the relevance? Perlmutter does not appear to be especially sympathetic, but I have a feeling that he could have been the nicest guy in the world, and yet the gossip about his donations would still have been brought up. Donating money to a fundraising committee is not exactly a crime, it's not even immoral.
    The tolerance of the tolerant often stop when they encounter someone with a political view different from their own.

  14. #29
    Spectacular Member scourge's Avatar
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    Yeah, I seriously have to doubt there's that many right-wing types that read comics at all let alone would be buying this.
    Most I've ever encountered are the ComicsGater whiners who moan and cry whenever a character that isn't a straight white male gets to exist. And really, we'd be better off if they did stop infecting comics in general.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by scourge View Post
    Yeah, I seriously have to doubt there's that many right-wing types that read comics at all let alone would be buying this.
    Most I've ever encountered are the ComicsGater whiners who moan and cry whenever a character that isn't a straight white male gets to exist. And really, we'd be better off if they did stop infecting comics in general.
    So you assume it was because of "right-wingers" Marvel asked him to remove the Trump reference? A request not to disrespect your country's legally elected president and to keep your political opinions for yourself is far from bending your knees for right-wingers, whatever that means these days.

    And sorry to say it, but comics are for everyone, not just the politically correct ones.

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