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  1. #46
    Spectacular Member scourge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikelmcknight72 View Post
    So, it is an insult based on the idea that the perszon who used it can somehow know what I sm really thinking. It is definitely an ad hominem attack.
    If the flipper fits ya...

    Quote Originally Posted by Banner View Post

    No source has any credibility unless you agree with it.
    Maybe for you, but the Federalist has a record of being nothing but a bunch of Right-Wing BS.
    Last edited by scourge; 08-18-2019 at 10:10 AM.

  2. #47
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scourge View Post
    If the flipper fits ya...
    Aside from the fact that the motives you've decided I have are completely incorrect, you persist in engaging in Ad Hominem attacks. If you are unfamiliar with the term, here's a definition from a the Department of Philosophy at Texas State.

    Ad Hominem

    (Attacking the person): This fallacy occurs when, instead of addressing someone's argument or position, you irrelevantly attack the person or some aspect of the person who is making the argument. The fallacious attack can also be direct to membership in a group or institution.

    https://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/r...d-Hominem.html

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by scourge View Post
    Maybe for you, but the Federalist has a record of being nothing but a bunch of Right-Wing BS.
    I have actually never heard about the website before. I let articles speak for themselves, considering that two plus two is still four no matter who does the math.



    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Its ironic though that people are whining about superheroes being too Pc when the core concept of a superhero is inherently conservative.
    First of all; just because someone make comments about decisions, it is not automatically "whining". Unless your own comments about the opinions of others are considered whining as well. Second, the comment about conservative superheroes doesn't hold up.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikelmcknight72 View Post
    I'm not sure what sea-lioning is, but I'll guess it is essentially an ad hominem attack.

    I stand by my opinions:
    1. We need more civil discourse and less demonizing of those with whom we disagree.
    2. The comics industry should use more restraint in the insertion of politics into their products, as alienating half of their possible customer base is a poor way to increase sales.
    3. A lot of folks are looking to entertainment for a temporary escape the unpleasant politics & news. They aren't looking for more politics.
    Yep but as we saw with comicsgate, a large portion of the far right get political when too many minority characters get the spotlight.

  5. #50
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shooshoomanjoe View Post
    Yep but as we saw with comicsgate, a large portion of the far right get political when too many minority characters get the spotlight.
    Would you mind explaining how comicsgate and/or the far right have any relevance to what I've written?

  6. #51
    Spectacular Member scourge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banner View Post
    I have actually never heard about the website before. I let articles speak for themselves, considering that two plus two is still four no matter who does the math.
    I find that dubious but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. The problem with places like that site is that correlation does not equal causation. They might have correct numbers but those numbers have nothing to do with what they claim they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikelmcknight72 View Post
    Aside from the fact that the motives you've decided I have are completely incorrect, you persist in engaging in Ad Hominem attacks. If you are unfamiliar with the term, here's a definition from a the Department of Philosophy at Texas State.

    Ad Hominem

    (Attacking the person): This fallacy occurs when, instead of addressing someone's argument or position, you irrelevantly attack the person or some aspect of the person who is making the argument. The fallacious attack can also be direct to membership in a group or institution.

    https://www.txstate.edu/philosophy/r...d-Hominem.html
    Quote Originally Posted by mikelmcknight72 View Post
    Would you mind explaining how comicsgate and/or the far right have any relevance to what I've written?
    There you go with that sea-lioning again.

    Just to be clear, I'm quite familiar with what Ad Hominem means. But in this case it doesn't apply.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banner View Post
    I have actually never heard about the website before. I let articles speak for themselves, considering that two plus two is still four no matter who does the math.





    First of all; just because someone make comments about decisions, it is not automatically "whining". Unless your own comments about the opinions of others are considered whining as well. Second, the comment about conservative superheroes doesn't hold up.
    One man who can do what the government cant because its bogged down by inefficiency etc, who by his own hands solves the issues. That doesnt sound conservative to you ?

    The heroes may not be conservative in their ideology etc but the very core concept of a modern (20th century) Superhero is very mych a conservative thing.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    One man who can do what the government cant because its bogged down by inefficiency etc, who by his own hands solves the issues. That doesnt sound conservative to you ?

    The heroes may not be conservative in their ideology etc but the very core concept of a modern (20th century) Superhero is very mych a conservative thing.
    That's irrelevant in this context because that doesn't stop politically correct ideas or any other kind of ideas from finding their ways into the stories. The most influential superheroes may have originated in the 40s, 50s and 60s (a few even in the 30s), and they still have some of the trademarks from back then, but the comics themselves have changed a lot.

  9. #54
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikelmcknight72 View Post
    I'm not sure what sea-lioning is, but I'll guess it is essentially an ad hominem attack.

    I stand by my opinions:
    1. We need more civil discourse and less demonizing of those with whom we disagree.
    2. The comics industry should use more restraint in the insertion of politics into their products, as alienating half of their possible customer base is a poor way to increase sales.
    3. A lot of folks are looking to entertainment for a temporary escape the unpleasant politics & news. They aren't looking for more politics.
    Itís hard to respect the opinions of those that hold the certain identities of others in a negative light and maliciously attack them, but I get what youíre saying.

    I also get using comics as an escape, as I recall seeing people with depression and the like that found pleasant comfort in reading comics and likes them very much. That said, I donít think this idea of using comics as escapism should stop writers from writing comic stories with political and social elements, and I think the approach that should be had, if any in particular, is how the politics are handled along with the hopefully good storytelling and characterizations. The majority of people donít like low quality comics after all.

  10. #55
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop Dogg View Post
    That quote would likely date the collection after a single year, but even if that is the reason they cut it, it's not worth the optics.
    My thoughts exactly.

    Edit - I think this was the reason the Marvel Office did not show the President's face when Cap unmasked the President as a villain in the infamous issue. They did not want to date the project.
    Last edited by Celgress; 08-18-2019 at 02:27 PM.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  11. #56
    Fantastic Member mikelmcknight72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scourge View Post
    There you go with that sea-lioning again.

    Just to be clear, I'm quite familiar with what Ad Hominem means. But in this case it doesn't apply.
    The accusation of sea-lioning very much qualifies as an ad hominem attack. I've read up on the idea of sea-lioning. Sea-lioning has the following qualities.

    1. A presumption that the call for civility by the accused is a pretense rather than sincere. Put another way, the call for civility is presumed to be made in bad faith. In short, it impugns the character of the accused.
    2. An implied lack of willingness on the part of the accuser to enter into a discussion with the accused.

    Not that I've much hope you'll believe it, but my desire for civil discourse is not a pretense, nor is my call for it made in bad faith.

    I'm not prone to accept someone impugning my character without expecting them to back it up. Their willingness to do so, or lack thereof, is informative.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banner View Post
    And it's not just "straight, white guys" that voted for Trump. Also gays, blacks, transgenders, immigrants and women voted for him.
    A few years ago Marvel did what the social media demanded them to do; making the Marvel universe more politically correct, and the sales dropped. When you move away from what made the titles popular to begin with, there will be consequences.
    How about we go find out why those sales dropped?

    Because all I saw was folks take issue with books they were never going to read in the first place. They just saw the cover and how dare Marvel try to use POC and others.
    Meanwhile every other company was doing the same thing and in some cases WORST. Hi DC Comics, Lion Forge, IDW, Dark Horse, Scout, Dynamite, Valiant & Image.

    One of the problems is that already established characters are being retconned and changed when it would work better with new ones.
    Marvel gave fans NEW folks and they were met with PUSH BACK. Some found success OUTSIDE of comic book stores.
    Marvel gave fans established folks-who ALSO were met with PUSH BACK. Many of whom held books before. Some found success OUTSIDE of comic book stores.
    Marvel tried new talent who were met with PUSH BACK before a single issue was written. Yet some of them found success OUTSIDE the comic book stores.

    MAYBE just MAYBE the comic book store guy is the issue. Because everyone else is not having issues with the above.

    That's black and white view. For some reason it is OK to complain about "whitewashing", demand that Disney should change the appearence of Tiana in Ralph Breaks the Internet (Disney had already made some changes in The Princess and the Frog, but it still wasn't good enough), the complain about every new blonde Disney princess, insist that Frozen needs more ethnic diversity and wanted Kristoff to have black hair and brown skin (so much for being "colorblind").

    And the same kind of people did their best to turn Ender's Game into a flop. Not because of the story, characters, actors, director or scriptwriter, but because they didn't like all the opinion of Orson Scott Card, who had nothing to do with the movie except that he wrote the book. The fact that it was a woman who took a huge risk making it is obvioulsy not that important in cases like this. They also demanded that Card should not be allowed to become the new Superman writer, which DC did what they were told.

    Do these too whine and complain?
    There is a MAJOR difference in both groups.

    The Tiana crowd will still show up and support the movie.
    The Tiana crowd questions why we keep getting blond princesses. With all the stories on the planet-when do we see more princesses of color? Yet they will STILL be there for Frozen 2.
    The Tiana crowd will forever bring up those points but it's not a DEAL BREAKER when it comes to supporting those projects in a lot of cases.
    The Tiana crowd will FIRE back at the next set of complainers because of the reasons below.

    The OTHER group complains to just complain. They take more issue with the existence of something than anything else. Because many view it as a threat to what they like.
    It's why you saw review bombs for Cap Marvel & Black Panther.
    It's why you got 40+ hours worth of Capt Marvel bashing lead by those who NEVER SAW IT.
    It's why you sudden see "fans" of something that NOBODY supported. No one cared about the Eternals until the casting started. Or IDW's MASK where you saw a petition to have the writer fired over a black Matt Tracker telling Hasbro-MASK belong to the FANS not the company who paid MILLIONS for it.
    It's why you see stuff get made up like Riri Williams was made to replace STORM.
    It's why you see guys who don't know comics make FOOLS of themselves. With cherry picking history.
    This is the group that gives you the gater community.

    DC the SAME mess to McDuffie with Justice League. Sam,e group threw fits about him and got him removed from a top selling book over 4 black characters. Who McDuffie has NO SAY WHATSOEVER IN HAVING ON THE ROSTER.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    How about we go find out why those sales dropped?

    Because all I saw was folks take issue with books they were never going to read in the first place. They just saw the cover and how dare Marvel try to use POC and others.
    Meanwhile every other company was doing the same thing and in some cases WORST. Hi DC Comics, Lion Forge, IDW, Dark Horse, Scout, Dynamite, Valiant & Image.
    Or maybe those who demanded it wasn't interested in buying them themselvs. One can only speculate the reason, but what you're saying is that white readers refused to buy them because the cover had non-white characters. That's a pretty strong accusation. When Marvel had a cover with Northstar's wedding, and someone refused to buy the issue because of that, do you think it was only white males?




    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    Marvel gave fans NEW folks and they were met with PUSH BACK. Some found success OUTSIDE of comic book stores.
    Marvel gave fans established folks-who ALSO were met with PUSH BACK. Many of whom held books before. Some found success OUTSIDE of comic book stores.
    Marvel tried new talent who were met with PUSH BACK before a single issue was written. Yet some of them found success OUTSIDE the comic book stores.

    MAYBE just MAYBE the comic book store guy is the issue. Because everyone else is not having issues with the above.
    As long as you're not giving any examples, I can't give you any reply.




    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    There is a MAJOR difference in both groups.

    The Tiana crowd will still show up and support the movie.
    The Tiana crowd questions why we keep getting blond princesses. With all the stories on the planet-when do we see more princesses of color? Yet they will STILL be there for Frozen 2.
    The Tiana crowd will forever bring up those points but it's not a DEAL BREAKER when it comes to supporting those projects in a lot of cases.
    The Tiana crowd will FIRE back at the next set of complainers because of the reasons below.
    All Disney fans will watch the movie, not just the Tiana crows, whoever they are. And there are only four Disney movies with blonde princesses; Cinderella, Aurora, Rapunzel (actually a brunette) and Anna.
    Disney is a western studio in a western country, and therefore it is most natural for them to use western myths and fairytales. But that hasn't stopped them from finding inspiration elsewhere now and then (and risk being accused of cultural appropriation?).

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    The OTHER group complains to just complain. They take more issue with the existence of something than anything else. Because many view it as a threat to what they like.
    It's why you saw review bombs for Cap Marvel & Black Panther.
    It's why you got 40+ hours worth of Capt Marvel bashing lead by those who NEVER SAW IT.
    It's why you sudden see "fans" of something that NOBODY supported. No one cared about the Eternals until the casting started. Or IDW's MASK where you saw a petition to have the writer fired over a black Matt Tracker telling Hasbro-MASK belong to the FANS not the company who paid MILLIONS for it.
    It's why you see stuff get made up like Riri Williams was made to replace STORM.
    It's why you see guys who don't know comics make FOOLS of themselves. With cherry picking history.
    This is the group that gives you the gater community.

    DC the SAME mess to McDuffie with Justice League. Sam,e group threw fits about him and got him removed from a top selling book over 4 black characters. Who McDuffie has NO SAY WHATSOEVER IN HAVING ON THE ROSTER.
    If they see it as some sort of threat, which they in that case is something they have in common with everybody else, then they don't complain just to complain. That's incorrect. As for abusing the like and dislike functions on imdb and elsewhere, that's a huge problem not just restricted to a single group of voters. And it is the main reason why I hate reddit.
    And yes, there are many who don't know their comic book history, on both sides, and everything in between.

    This is the first time I hear about the McDuffie story and him being fired by DC, so I googled it, and he said: Writer Dwayne McDuffie revealed today on his message board that he's been fired from Justice League of America, saying "it was my own doing." https://www.cbr.com/dwayne-mcduffie-...ustice-league/

  14. #59
    Mighty Member hawkeyefan's Avatar
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    Seems pretty stupid on Marvel’s part to go to Spiegelman for the foreword and then be shocked by such content. Deciding not to use his foreword and then him releasing it himself defeats the purpose of them not using it. It’s become a bigger story as a result and they look pretty wishy washy as a result.

    As for the actual content, it’s surprisingly mild. I can’t imagine anyone deciding not to buy the volume based on it. But it’s also very relevant. His point is that the super hero genre was birthed by people who were facing persecution and prejudice in many ways. And their creations reflected that.

    As he explains, Superman was very New Deal. Captain America debuted by punching Hitler in the face. The creators had a clear idea on what was right and what was wrong, and their creations shared those ideals. They were absolutely political.

    To have Marvel balk at a small political expression...to try and remain apolitical...seems antithetical to what they do.

  15. #60
    Incredible Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkeyefan View Post
    His point is that the super hero genre was birthed by people who were facing persecution and prejudice in many ways. And their creations reflected that.

    As he explains, Superman was very New Deal. Captain America debuted by punching Hitler in the face. The creators had a clear idea on what was right and what was wrong, and their creations shared those ideals. They were absolutely political.
    Interesting for you to say that, because I think I recall seeing some accusing Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, and Joe Simon as being bad people for helping create Whitewash Jones of the Young Allies, which some may find reminiscent of minstrel show racist stereotypes, and hold that against them despite punching Hitler and later creating the more respectable Black Panther.

    It's just a really bizarre scenario, like they were punching Hitler with one hand, and drawing demeaning caricatures of black people with the other.

    Last edited by Electricmastro; 08-18-2019 at 06:35 PM.

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