[Spoiler] Batman 77 Preview and Discussion thread

[Nite-Wing]

I imagine this big new change won't even last as long as Alfred's chopped off hand.

Enjoy the short pop from the 'controversy.'

Alfred still has a chopped off hand he just got a robotic prosthetic hand
I wonder if this new status quo change will be enough to ostracize Damian for good
No more "he's a dumb, scared kid" excuses when you are a teen this is the one time where Damian will have to own the chaos that he's caused

[Tzigone]

I don't think Alfred is dead. I think we'll find out that Thomas replaced him with a double for reasons, and the double was killed while Alfred is still locked away. Or at least that's what the next writer will say to undo the death.

I actually thought of that too, but I'm not reading the title regularly (only occasional issues, and not even this one), so don't know if it plays out. The other alternative is the hanging-in-the-Batcave not-death (because a neck can actually be broken without killing someone), but I don't know if it's feasible with this set up.

[Korath]

If anything, I want Damian away from the Bat-office. That character deserve betters that what terrible writers like Tom King do of him, ignoring every bit of growth he had to devolve him into this minuscule imbecile too dumb to actually plan for defeating two dangerous foes, because he got ahold of some shitty plot device the writer introduced to incapacitate his overpowered oc villain...

I really can't wait for King to be out, and everything he did to the Batman mythos pushed aside and forgotten.

[Batknight]

Did we get any explanation for the wand?

"Draw a circle on the ground, then a pointy star. Chat with some demon. Blah, blah, blah my soul'

.....

Hahahahahahaha, Damian sold his soul to a demon to get the wand. Not that that explains how he knew how to use the wand given he has no prior magical training or innate magical ability at all, but if anyone ever read Hellblazer then you know selling your soul to a demon should have major ramifications and consequences. But I doubt it will. This will either be handwaved away or just never talked about again once this story is over. God this makes him look so stupid. He sold his soul to take down one person but then didn't bother planning on how to take down anyone else. At the cost of his soul and still failed, getting Alfred killed. Just...so dumb.

[Tzigone]

If anything, I want Damian away from the Bat-office. That character deserve betters that what terrible writers like Tom King do of him, ignoring every bit of growth he had to devolve him into this minuscule imbecile too dumb to actually plan for defeating two dangerous foes, because he got ahold of some shitty plot device the writer introduced to incapacitate his overpowered oc villain...

Can we talk about Dick Grayson for the last large-number-of-years?

Hahahahahahaha, Damian sold his soul to a demon to get the wand. Not that that explains how he knew how to use the wand given he has no prior magical training, but if anyone ever read Hellblazer then you know selling your soul to a demon should have major ramifications and consequences. But I doubt it will. This will either be handwaved away or just never talked about again once this story is over.

If Damian still has available funds, maybe he can hire James Jesse to get him out of it?

[Swallowtail]

Damian didn't technically act out of character but, once again, it feels like his arrogance and overall lack of common sense were exaggerated to levels that he shouldn't be at anymore. It's kind of the same issue I have with him in Teen Titans (kinda funny how that series is the most mature and immature he's been) I don't know if puberty has put his brain out if whack or something but sometimes it feels like his judgement was better at ten years old (post-death) than it has been lately. This is the third time in a VERY short amount of time that he's gotten his ass kicked for being an idiot. I hope this is the time he actually learns something.

Like I daid, he doesn't necessarily feel...wrong or out of character. Just....slightly off. Exaggerated even. I hope they're going somewhere with the fact that he's had more **** ups, thanks to his hubris, than victories in recent years

That's an ongoing problem for Damian though, isn't it? All these characters have to stay still while running forward and Damian's default setting is to look a lot like the version of him typified in something like the DCU movies, soft on the inside but thorny and high-handed on the outside. How then do you depict Damian when he's not the point of view character or lead character after he's had nearly a decade of development under a single creative team? Make him too snotty and his dedicated fans don't feel he's true to the person he's become. But make him too open and straight forward and he loses his distinctive voice and begins to blend in with the other Robins. Like even in Tomasi's recent 'Tec run, he was sweet and he was competent but I'm struggling to find a moment that was distinctly Damian. He could have been relatively easily replaced by Duke or Tim.

[Rac7d*]

Alfred still has a chopped off hand he just got a robotic prosthetic hand
I wonder if this new status quo change will be enough to ostracize Damian for good
No more "he's a dumb, scared kid" excuses when you are a teen this is the one time where Damian will have to own the chaos that he's caused

so the only thing that gets to change is his age, he developop mentally and as a person only for it to not matter becasue a writer gonna make him do things that dont make sense anymore to the chracter

[Swallowtail]

No more "he's a dumb, scared kid" excuses when you are a teen this is the one time where Damian will have to own the chaos that he's caused

Uh, you are definitely still a scared, dumb kid at 13.

[Ansa]

Alfred still has a chopped off hand he just got a robotic prosthetic hand
I wonder if this new status quo change will be enough to ostracize Damian for good
No more "he's a dumb, scared kid" excuses when you are a teen this is the one time where Damian will have to own the chaos that he's caused

Maybe it's because I live in a country where you can't proceed against kids under 14, because they are not mature enough to understand the consequences for their actions, or maybe it's because I work with kids between the ages of 10 to 14, but Damian being a teen and not ten anymore doesn't mean he isn't a scared kid and can suddenly be judged like an adult character, at least in my opinion.

[Blue22]

It's doubtful but I am actually hoping this ends up being slme sort of wake-up call for Damian and he starts changing for the better again. His entire hero career since Rebirth began has been almost completely marred by failure after failure, and it's always the result of him getting in WAY over his head.

He was on the right track before he died. He was even more on the right track when he came back to life, and in his solo series. But after that....it's like Bruce forgetting his birthday had some weird domino effect that made him both regress and progress.

[Batman Begins 2005]

If anything, I want Damian away from the Bat-office. That character deserve betters that what terrible writers like Tom King do of him, ignoring every bit of growth he had to devolve him into this minuscule imbecile too dumb to actually plan for defeating two dangerous foes, because he got ahold of some shitty plot device the writer introduced to incapacitate his overpowered oc villain...

I really can't wait for King to be out, and everything he did to the Batman mythos pushed aside and forgotten.

Grant Morrison wrote the character the best then Peter J. Tomasi and Patrick Gleason. Loved Morrison's run on the book.

[Tzigone]

Maybe it's because I live in a country where you can't proceed against kids under 14, because they are not mature enough to understand the consequences for their actions, or maybe it's because I work with kids between the ages of 10 to 14, but Damian being a teen and not ten anymore doesn't mean he isn't a scared kid and can suddenly be judged like an adult character, at least in my opinion.

I think one of the issues is the difference in comic time and real-time. He may be only 13, but he's been around for ...13 years now as Robin? So, even if he's still a kid in-universe, he can't keep doing dumb kid stuff for 30 real-world years and have us really think he should still be Robin. If he's going to be Robin, he needs to grow up and be more mature than his age in work life (personal life is entirely different kettle of fish) or he just won't be "worthy" of the job and we'll have to go all meta about kids in capes again, and I don't really care for that. Reading in back issues, it doesn't matter so much, because you fly through them quickly, but reading for years in real-time and the character is still doing the same dumb crap? It makes a good number of readers think less of them. And that's before we even to the regressing a character aspect. Too many characters get taken back to their emotional starting point every time a new creative team comes on because either the writer wants to deal with an issue than already been worked through (Vic Stone) or they don't bother to read or care about growth from a well-known version (Guy Gardner).

[Rac7d*]

I think one of the issues is the difference in comic time and real-time. He may be only 13, but he's been around for ...13 years now as Robin? So, even if he's still a kid in-universe, he can't keep doing dumb kid stuff for 30 real-world years and have us really think he should still be Robin. If he's going to be Robin, he needs to grow up and be more mature than his age in work life (personal life is entirely different kettle of fish) or he just won't be "worthy" of the job and we'll have to go all meta about kids in capes again, and I don't really care for that. Reading in back issues, it doesn't matter so much, because you fly through them quickly, but reading for years in real-time and the character is still doing the same dumb crap? It makes a good number of readers think less of them. And that's before we even to the regressing a character aspect. Too many characters get taken back to their emotional starting point every time a new creative team comes on because either the writer wants to deal with an issue than already been worked through (Vic Stone) or they don't bother to read or care about growth from a well-known version (Guy Gardner).

Out of his control, he will be as the writers deem him to be no matter how inconsitent it is with everything else Thats the real problem everyone just wants to write what they want when they want that was Wally west is a mess

Damian is an easy scapegoat for situations like this becasue he always get reverted to his robin year 1 self, its even worse becasue dick is not around to help or advise him

[Swallowtail]

I think one of the issues is the difference in comic time and real-time. He may be only 13, but he's been around for ...13 years now as Robin? So, even if he's still a kid in-universe, he can't keep doing dumb kid stuff for 30 real-world years and have us really think he should still be Robin. If he's going to be Robin, he needs to grow up and be more mature than his age in work life (personal life is entirely different kettle of fish) or he just won't be "worthy" of the job and we'll have to go all meta about kids in capes again, and I don't really care for that. Reading in back issues, it doesn't matter so much, because you fly through them quickly, but reading for years in real-time and the character is still doing the same dumb crap? It makes a good number of readers think less of them. And that's before we even to the regressing a character aspect. Too many characters get taken back to their emotional starting point every time a new creative team comes on because either the writer wants to deal with an issue than already been worked through (Vic Stone) or they don't bother to read or care about growth from a well-known version (Guy Gardner).

I mean, what character doesn't revert to some status quo in comics? It's just more noticeable in Damian and Guy because their character flaws are big and loud and allow for writers do have a go doing mean but funny dialogue.

[Chuck]

We don't know that. Before being revived in Rebirth, Thomas was in all of about 5 or 6 issues. We don't know the extent of his training.

Not to mention Bruce is fighting a father he long idealized. Yes, it's an alternate universe version, but it's still the face of a man he based his entire life mission behind avenging. Needless to say, his heart probably wasn't fully in that flight.

Thomas was an adult when he became Batman, Bruce trained since he was a child. Also Thomas uses a gun Bruce is so good he doesnt have to. All I need to know. King constantly has Bruce getting his butt kicked by everyone and outsmarted its as if according to King Bruce never trained at all. If this is the case then how is Bruce not dead? How is he part of Trinity? How coould Bane take over a whole city and JL not do anything? It's just dumb and bad writing.