[Spoiler] Batman 77 Preview and Discussion thread

[Tzigone]

Out of his control, he will be as the writers deem him to be no matter how inconsitent it is with everything else Thats the real problem everyone just wants to write what they want when they want that was Wally west is a mess

This is true.

I mean, what character doesn't revert to some status quo in comics? It's just more noticeable in Damian and Guy because their character flaws are big and loud and allow for writers do have a go doing mean but funny dialogue.

Sadly, they always seem to revert to the most negative status quo. Batman and Green Arrow both became a lot less likable (and less enjoyable) to me in post-COIE era (Batman particularly in the late 90s up through at least the mid 2000s), and even when writers have tried to move them back to the previous status quo or even just move them forward and past the jerky status quo, the jerkier ones stuck. Dick had a pretty awesome status quo, only be replaced by the manchild philanderer. He's been taken away from it at times, but keeps get stuck back there. The new negative aspects seem to "stick" a lot more than the new positive ones of character that improved (in an in-universe "more responsible" "more competent" and "less mean" fashion - what the audience considered improved in entertainment value varies).

[CPSparkles]

I think one of the issues is the difference in comic time and real-time. He may be only 13, but he's been around for ...13 years now as Robin? So, even if he's still a kid in-universe, he can't keep doing dumb kid stuff for 30 real-world years and have us really think he should still be Robin. If he's going to be Robin, he needs to grow up and be more mature than his age in work life (personal life is entirely different kettle of fish) or he just won't be "worthy" of the job and we'll have to go all meta about kids in capes again, and I don't really care for that. Reading in back issues, it doesn't matter so much, because you fly through them quickly, but reading for years in real-time and the character is still doing the same dumb crap? It makes a good number of readers think less of them. And that's before we even to the regressing a character aspect. Too many characters get taken back to their emotional starting point every time a new creative team comes on because either the writer wants to deal with an issue than already been worked through (Vic Stone) or they don't bother to read or care about growth from a well-known version (Guy Gardner).

Excvept he hasn't been doing dumb kid stuff for years has he though. He hasn't been doing dumb kid stuff for 13 years.Even in this issue he was still being a hero

[Tzigone]

Excvept he hasn't been doing dumb kid stuff for years has he though. He hasn't been doing dumb kid stuff for 13 years.Even in this issue he was still being a hero

Which goes into the regression part. And I was specifically addressing those who think this was "dumb kid" behavior - heroic intent, but foolish execution. Of course there is plain old "bad writing" as Rac7d* mentioned - where a character will do whatever the writer needs to move the plot along, no matter how inconsistent it is with prior characterization. But this sort of brash overconfidence leading to him losing seems to be repeating theme lately, someone said.

[Swallowtail]

This is true.

Sadly, they always seem to revert to the most negative status quo. Batman and Green Arrow both became a lot less likable (and less enjoyable) to me in post-COIE era (Batman particularly in the late 90s up through at least the mid 2000s), and even when writers have tried to move them back to the previous status quo or even just move them forward and past the jerky status quo, the jerkier ones stuck. Dick had a pretty awesome status quo, only be replaced by the manchild philanderer. He's been taken away from it at times, but keeps get stuck back there. The new negative aspects seem to "stick" a lot more than the new positive ones of character that improved (in an in-universe "more responsible" "more competent" and "less mean" fashion - what the audience considered improved in entertainment value varies).

It's not sad so much as it is just a mechanic of the system of being stuck in the eternal middle. A character needs flaws to drive a narrative and changing those flaws changes a character so significantly. Though I guess it does happen. For me personally, Dick being robustly psychologically healthy at the cost of being a little flaky and oblivious to the depth of suffering of his friends and family is a more interesting and contrasting take than Dick who has a temper from the 1980s.

[CPSparkles]

It's doubtful but I am actually hoping this ends up being slme sort of wake-up call for Damian and he starts changing for the better again. His entire hero career since Rebirth began has been almost completely marred by failure after failure, and it's always the result of him getting in WAY over his head.

He was on the right track before he died. He was even more on the right track when he came back to life, and in his solo series. But after that....it's like Bruce forgetting his birthday had some weird domino effect that made him both regress and progress.

He saved the Demon fist, saved the TT, helped in Metal, Saved the planet along with Jon,Saved the League alone with Jon just to name a few in Rebirth. It flat incorrect to say that his hero career has been marred with failure since Rebirth. The stories don't support that at all.

[Nite-Wing]

Uh, you are definitely still a scared, dumb kid at 13.

No he's officially in his middle tenure as Robin to me
No more excuses for when people die because he's an arrogant moron

[CPSparkles]

Which goes into the regression part. And I was specifically addressing those who think this was "dumb kid" behavior - heroic intent, but foolish execution. Of course there is plain old "bad writing" as Rac7d* mentioned - where a character will do whatever the writer needs to move the plot along, no matter how inconsistent it is with prior characterization. But this sort of brash overconfidence leading to him losing seems to be repeating theme lately, someone said.

The person who said it is wrong. That is simply not true. It's been how many years since rebirth and Damian has been in tons of stories and titles2/3 stories out of that many isn't a repeated theme.

I will say that because those stories happened relatively close together might be a factor.

most good characters have a flaw or two that they grapple with and which re occurs just so long as writers also write the characters try to overcome those flaws.

Damian has been absent from this like most of the family and it feels like his inclusion here was solely to have him as a fall guy

[Tzigone]

It's not sad so much as it is just a mechanic of the system of being stuck in the eternal middle. A character needs flaws to drive a narrative and changing those flaws changes a character so significantly. Though I guess it does happen. For me personally, Dick being robustly psychologically healthy at the cost of being a little flaky and oblivious to the depth of suffering of his friends and family is a more interesting and contrasting take than Dick who has a temper from the 1980s.

I never saw Dick as that temper heavy in the early 1980s (he changed up some post-COIE). He was a serious person, very cerebral and thinking, whereas now he's often an airhead. He was a man at 19 - more mature than most 30 year olds (Terry's bachelor party as a great example). The big exception was with Bruce, where he'd act less mature. He was very different with Bruce than with the Teen Titan, and I mostly read him with Titans. His peers always thought he had it all together, and had a better handle on life than they did (Donna and Kory being the exceptions who saw his weaknesses and doubts). He was a great detective and an extremely good leader. He was intelligent, competent and very well respected by not only his peers, but older heroes. He also was big on committed relationships, in contrast to Roy. He was different in the 90s, but still good (I am not a fan of Titans in the back half of 80s). More laid back and emotionally open, mostly because of different writer, but within the story because he's not trying to put on the strong front for the team. He was still very competent, not at all flaky, and interested in pursuing a committed relationship with Barbara. Yes, he ate cereal. But he was also a self-sufficient adult. I think Dick was a lot more psychologically healthy in the earlier 1980s than in more recent stories. He had "growing up" issues with Bruce. That made sense, he was only 19. But he grew past them. Then COIE came along and brought them back and amped them up to 11 (new story on becoming Nightwing) and the family dynamic has never really been healthy since. But Dick was in a good place, and then Devin Grayson turned him into a flake entirely incapable of healthy relationships or monogamy (she said that in interview on her perception of the character he was the kind of guy who was kinda out of sight out of mind - different words, of course) and incompetent at dealing with threats.

He had some good stuff with Damian, but he seemed too needy about Bruce (I really do not care for the entire idea his lazarus pit bit - like they can't function or move on or be okay without Bruce, but haven't read the issue, so maybe it's not so bad?) and had to pull a Bruce on taking Tim away from Robin (and Tim, of course is all brooding mini-Bruce himself in those days - so depressing). I do think that era helped him a bit, though, in being taken seriously.

So I think Dick was at least as psychologically healthy in the 1980s as in recent years, and was smarter, more faithful, a better detective, more mature, and much more respected by others. He had flaws, of course (hypersensitive in relationship with Bruce, too eager to prove himself, could be distant at times) , but was overall better to me, and I felt by time he became Nightwing, he'd made a good place. The latter 1980s in Titans was kinda poor for all the characters, I think. Lot of good stuff with Dixon (liked Bludhaven, Dick becoming a cop, relationships developed with Barbara and Tim), but some bad (retreading old ground with him and his issues with proving himself to Bruce and him taking orders from Bruce). I think the 2000s were his worst. Lex called him "not a big thinker" I think and the audience thought of him that way, and that's just sad to me for a character that used to be very much a thinker. Lost his own city. Became a Lothario, and not only did he become a cheater, but had it retconned to the past where it didn't belong at all. And he became more air-headed, less of a thinker. Part of that, too, as time wears on is more (ex)Robins and someone apparently had the brilliant ::rolleyes:: idea of making each Robin an aspect of Batman instead of having them as several highly-skilled, well-rounded (professionally-speaking) heroes. Tim got "detective" and it was sort of swept under the rug that Dick was once highly regarded as detective (and Barbara was one, too, btw).

Also, somewhere along the line, the comments about his body got way out of hand, and it frankly became a little demeaning to me. I know some girls said he had a cute butt at Donna's wedding - that was fine. Kory and Barbara both comment on his hotness to him. Okay - he was dating one and at least flirting with the other at the time, so that made perfect sense. I'm not sure when the line got crossed, but it did somewhere, and it's almost cringeworthy at times to me (named buttcheeks). Nothing to do with his characterization, but with how he's treated by other heroes/by DC.

[Godlike13]

No he's officially in his middle tenure as Robin to me
No more excuses for when people die because he's an arrogant moron

People didn’t die because of Damian, people are dieing because of Bane. Alfred was already dead. Bane was just waiting for an excuse to make an example of it. His ultimatum was one he knew couldn’t be followed, and it’s one that Bruce sure isn’t gonna follow. Damian is just guilty of the same thing Bruce is, losing.

[Rakzo]

King didn't earn the right to kill Alfred.

That's all.

[Schumiac]

The running joke on Dick's butt and him being "hot" wouldn't be as much an issue if Dc didn't degrade him to "pretty, funny one". Dick IS much more than that and it is kind of sad that in TV he is getting the respect he deserves and much better characterization than he does in comics, his origins. But at least he is getting some respect and decent writing somewhere I guess..

Also, man... Dick gets some spotlight on TV with Titans and Young Justice coming back and King puts him out of commission in comics with a bullet to the head.
Alfred gets his own series on TV and King discards of him...


Usually you want to make use of the interest TV shows are creating in your characters for better sales and publicity, I would think, but not at DC comics no. We get rid of the characters instead. lol

[Tzigone]

Usually you want to make use of the interest TV shows are creating in your characters for better sales and publicity, I would think, but not at DC comics no. We get rid of the characters instead. lol

It saddens me that I hadn't thought of his show in terms of Alfred dying here. I quit watching Gotham long ago, and never tuned for the new show, as I understood it to be same universe, but it is worth thinking on. Though there is the question of whether live-action or animated shows or even movies increase comic sales anymore. Especially those like the new Pennyworth or even Wonder Woman movie, where the time frame is so different than the current comics.

[Schumiac]

It saddens me that I hadn't thought of his show in terms of Alfred dying here. I quit watching Gotham long ago, and never tuned for the new show, as I understood it to be same universe, but it is worth thinking on. Though there is the question of whether live-action or animated shows or even movies increase comic sales anymore. Especially those like the new Pennyworth or even Wonder Woman movie, where the time frame is so different than the current comics.

I think if TV shows and movies don't raise interest, nothing else will tbh. I am not saying they will definitely be a huge boost or anything but I feel they are the best way for comics to introduce their characters and world to a brand new audience and maybe interest some of them enough to pick up a comics sometime. They would know it won't be the exact same thing, I think, but they would expect the basics of the characters to be the same and have enough love and interest in the character to read more stories with them in it... Maybe I am biased because Batman movie and X-men animated series were how I first got into comics myself. (I am not in a country where comics are a big thing...)

[phonogram12]

People didn’t die because of Damian, people are dieing because of Bane. Alfred was already dead. Bane was just waiting for an excuse to make an example of it. His ultimatum was one he knew couldn’t be followed, and it’s one that Bruce sure isn’t gonna follow. Damian is just guilty of the same thing Bruce is, losing.

While I'm hardly any huge fan of Damien, I completely agree. There was no way Bane wasn't going to at least try and kill someone close to Bruce just for the fun of it.

[Flash Gordon]

Oh god, none of this is earned.