[Spoiler] Batman 77 Preview and Discussion thread

[GCWaters]

Echoing T1L...
To those who enjoy/ "really like" King's run - What exactly do you like about it? Genuinely asking.
I for one have found his run to be underwhelming on the whole. Not sure it was a quality thing per say. Perhaps it was overhyped?
Truth be told I did enjoy some of the arcs e.g. Rooftops, Rules of Engagement and a couple of "smaller" stories.
But yeah I'm curious. I sometimes feel I'm missing something. Funnily enough had to re-read issue 75 to fully get what King was selling but while I "get it", I don't find it amazing or anything of the sort.
And before anyone says I hate King etc - I enjoyed his Vision, Sherrif of B and Mister Miracle...

I like tomatoes....I don't try to justify that to people who don't like them, because all of the things that make me like them are typically the things that make other people not like them, and vice versa. What I see as a great texture, others see as squishy. What I see as sweet, others see as harsh. We differ in how we perceive them, and neither of us is wrong, it just is. I find this run fun, interesting, and anything but typical. It's the first thing I read on Wednesdays. And I didn't like the first couple of arcs--I thought the Gotham/Gotham Girl arc and the "I am suicide" arc were not very good...it has definitely grown on me. I do see the criticism that he takes too long to get to a point, and I can agree with that somewhat. But, like I said, I'm enjoying it. Is it perfect? No--but I define "perfect" by the O'Neil/Adams run from the 70's and not much else.

[Talon1load]

I've been reading since 2004, and have done a lot of back-reading, though not much of the pre-Year One stuff.

The TL,DR version of why I love King's run:

For one of the first times since I started reading Batman, King has made me care about what Bruce wants. I care because it feels like he might end up in a different place than in Hush, or in Bruce Wayne, Murderer, or in Batman Inc, or the n52. All of which basically end by saying, "Batman cannot figure out how to balance a long term serious relationship with his mission."

And that does sound an awful lot like I just care about Bat/Cat. But if you look at Detective Comics #1000, "Batman's Greatest Case" - that, I think, is the mission statement for King's Batman. It's not all about Bat/Cat. It's about Batman finding a certain measure of contentment with the family he's found after his parents were taken away. It doesn't end with Batman alone - it ends with him saying, "Cheese."

And yes, it's kinda cheesy. And I would never argue that it's flawless. But Batman finding that contentment while still being able to be Batman is really exciting for me.

(There's also a lot about King's style - the setups and payoffs, the poetic style, the interpretive gaps - that appeal to me. But that's about all of his writing in general, not just Batman.)

What payoffs? The poetic style that he steals from others? The interpretive gaps that really just seem like he hasn't thought out the entirety of the story? The things that you seem to love are what I, and many others, hate. If he could tell more than one type of story, write dialogue that doesn't make you want to punch a baby, and make his stories at all coherent then his stories would be a lot more palatable to the rest of us. He can't though so he needs to be relegated to limited series that can easily be explained away by those who hate his stories but can be enjoyed by his fans.

[GCWaters]

What payoffs? The poetic style that he steals from others? The interpretive gaps that really just seem like he hasn't thought out the entirety of the story? The things that you seem to love are what I, and many others, hate. If he could tell more than one type of story, write dialogue that doesn't make you want to punch a baby, and make his stories at all coherent then his stories would be a lot more palatable to the rest of us. He can't though so he needs to be relegated to limited series that can easily be explained away by those who hate his stories but can be enjoyed by his fans.

And that's the crux of it--the rest of it is just opinion. And, for the record, I really didn't like "Mister Miracle"....

[Mr. White]

Intresting.
Thanks for the responses.
Side note: @GCWaters - wasn't asking for a "justification" as to why you liked it. Just what you like about it.

[Ansa]

Recent highlights of the batfamily since the start of dc rebirth include:

Bruce beating Jason half to death and telling him he deserves to get beaten up from time to time.

Bruce sending Cass and Duke away to work with Black Lightning, so he doesn't have to take care of them anymore.

Bruce letting Dick run around as Ric, a homeless, drunk cab driver.

Bruce punching Tim in the face , because he dared to care about his emotional state, but Bruce was too angry after his remaining allies didn't believe his claims about Bane he had no evidence for.

Bruce ignoring his son's birthday, letting him run around on his own for months after an off-screen argument before remembering that he has parental responsibilities for exactly one arc in detective comics and being a neglectful parent in general.

But hey, it's okay. He took a photo with them and said cheese. Father of the year, 10/10.

[Swallowtail]

Okay, can I ask a question. There's a defined end to this run coming in short order and minimum four other Batman titles on the stand. I've heard people wanting to petition to get him off Batman, when we already know he's off Batman. The wait for a new Batman writer is at this stage no greater than say you would have between two seasons of television. I can understand there can be a compulsion towards hate reading but when there's so much other content out there, both Batman and non-Batman related, and it's only causing you pain, why bother? You can't realistically be hoping for an answer to "why do you like it?" that's more satisfying, than "because that's how my taste leans" in which case why waste the mental real estate arguing about it? In a year's time will it matter to you what happened in Tom King's run.

[Talon1load]

Okay, can I ask a question. There's a defined end to this run coming in short order and minimum four other Batman titles on the stand. I've heard people wanting to petition to get him off Batman, when we already know he's off Batman. The wait for a new Batman writer is at this stage no greater than say you would have between two seasons of television. I can understand there can be a compulsion towards hate reading but when there's so much other content out there, both Batman and non-Batman related, and it's only causing you pain, why bother? You can't realistically be hoping for an answer to "why do you like it?" that's more satisfying, than "because that's how my taste leans" in which case why waste the mental real estate arguing about it? In a year's time will it matter to you what happened in Tom King's run.

I feel like you answered your own question.

[Ansa]

I'm more a fan of the Robins and the batfamily than of Batman. King having Nightwing shot in the head, making Bruce punch Tim and whatever he has in store for Damian greatly ruins my enjoyment of current dc comics.

[Swallowtail]

I feel like you answered your own question.

That’s a quirk of behavior though, rather than a quirk of personality. In theory we can modify our behaviours, particularly ones that just make us angry or miserable.

[Inversed]

King has shown zero chemistry between the two though. How, in your opinion, has he made their relationship better? Batman has become a manchild, Catwoman has become CatGOD and they haven't really shown any sort of real emotional substance. They have both changed for sure, just not in good ways, to me anyway.

After decades where majority of the time their interactions are relegated to brief moments, a lot of which I looked at as more of a physical attraction, I appreciated getting to see what them being "together" for an extended period of time looked like. I like how they play off each other, how they complimented each other in their action, and with them removing their usual closed off personas, I was able to believe how much they genuinely cared for each other. Rooftops, Rules Of Engagement, Superfriends, Everybody Loves Ivy, and Annual #2 are the highlights for me in how well they work together in it.

Also, Batman not being "BatGod" (and dealing with his issues emotionally rather than physically) isn't going ""man child"" and Catwoman is no more competent/fallible in these than she's been in stuff before.

[millernumber1]

And that's the crux of it--the rest of it is just opinion. And, for the record, I really didn't like "Mister Miracle"....

I didn't either.

I don't think it's just opinion - but at this point, the absolute rage about King's writing is at a state where the conversation just breaks down. Thus, the other thread.

[Talon1load]

After decades where majority of the time their interactions are relegated to brief moments, a lot of which I looked at as more of a physical attraction, I appreciated getting to see what them being "together" for an extended period of time looked like. I like how they play off each other, how they complimented each other in their action, and with them removing their usual closed off personas, I was able to believe how much they genuinely cared for each other. Rooftops, Rules Of Engagement, Superfriends, Everybody Loves Ivy, and Annual #2 are the highlights for me in how well they work together in it.

Also, Batman not being "BatGod" (and dealing with his issues emotionally rather than physically) isn't going ""man child"" and Catwoman is no more competent/fallible in these than she's been in stuff before.

I definitely disagree with you regarding the manchild aspect. You don't think Catwoman being able to beat Talia, who was raised in the League of Assassins, in a sword fight or her beating Bane, or her beating the Flashes is her being portrayed as a CatGOD type character?

[Talon1load]

I didn't either.

I don't think it's just opinion - but at this point, the absolute rage about King's writing is at a state where the conversation just breaks down. Thus, the other thread.

Most people leave the other thread alone, so I don't think the rage is as absolute as you're making it out to be. If it were, you'd have no safe haven from it. Instead, people have been kept to the issue threads and, instead of just raging out, having articulated pretty well the things that they hate about King's run.

[The tall man]

Recent highlights of the batfamily since the start of dc rebirth include:

Bruce beating Jason half to death and telling him he deserves to get beaten up from time to time.

Bruce sending Cass and Duke away to work with Black Lightning, so he doesn't have to take care of them anymore.

Bruce letting Dick run around as Ric, a homeless, drunk cab driver.

Bruce punching Tim in the face , because he dared to care about his emotional state, but Bruce was too angry after his remaining allies didn't believe his claims about Bane he had no evidence for.

Bruce ignoring his son's birthday, letting him run around on his own for months after an off-screen argument before remembering that he has parental responsibilities for exactly one arc in detective comics and being a neglectful parent in general.

But hey, it's okay. He took a photo with them and said cheese. Father of the year, 10/10.

There really needs to be a wall of separation between Batman and the bat family, they just don't seem to mix, like oil and water. Batman is always made to be the bad guy when dealing with the family in any capacity, any conflict or misunderstandings is seen as his fault, all the blame is put on him. I say just seperate them, let the family do their own thing and let Batman do his own thing. It's always the same story, Bruce is a jerk, a *******, a bad father, a terrible person and on and on. But yet for all the hate that bat family fans level at Bruce they always complain that the family never appear in bat books or bat events. I'm mean if Batman is so terrible why do they even want the family anywhere near him, why would they want them to be associated with him at all? When Duke and Hal were said to be Batman's closest allies in Metal family fans were upset, when the possibility of Damian not being Bruce's son was teased in the Deathstroke vs Batman series fans were upset; why? Is it because despite all the Batman hate they know his mega popularity and they know the family benefits from being in Batman's orbit. They know that if not for the fact that he's Batman's son that Damian would not be anywhere near as relevant as he is, hell he probably wouldn't even be alive. All this is to say that hating and beating up on Bruce is the cool thing to do and has been for awhile now. Family fans love it when they go off on him because it makes them badass or something. Yet Batman continues to chug on as one of the top books (despite King's abysmal run) in the industry and the family continues to trail in his wake. So I think the best thing would be a clean break, the family can do their thing in their own books without the bat jerk being a domineering presence and bossing them around. And Batman can be free of the yolk around his neck/anchor around feet known as the bat family because honestly they do nothing for him other than dragging him down. It's a win-win for everybody.

[Talon1load]

There really needs to be a wall of separation between Batman and the bat family, they just don't seem to mix, like oil and water. Batman is always made to be the bad guy when dealing with the family in any capacity, any conflict or misunderstandings is seen as his fault, all the blame is put on him. I say just seperate them, let the family do their own thing and let Batman do his own thing. It's always the same story, Bruce is a jerk, a *******, a bad father, a terrible person and on and on. But yet for all the hate that bat family fans level at Bruce they always complain that the family never appear in bat books or bat events. I'm mean if Batman is so terrible why do they even want the family anywhere near him, why would they want them to be associated with him at all? When Duke and Hal were said to be Batman's closest allies in Metal family fans were upset, when the possibility of Damian not being Bruce's son was teased in the Deathstroke vs Batman series fans were upset; why? Is it because despite all the Batman hate they know his mega popularity and they know the family benefits from being in Batman's orbit. They know that if not for the fact that he's Batman's son that Damian would not be anywhere near as relevant as he is, hell he probably wouldn't even be alive. All this is to say that hating and beating up on Bruce is the cool thing to do and has been for awhile now. Family fans love it when they go off on him because it makes them badass or something. Yet Batman continues to chug on as one of the top books (despite King's abysmal run) in the industry and the family continues to trail in his wake. So I think the best thing would be a clean break, the family can do their thing in their own books without the bat jerk being a domineering presence and bossing them around. And Batman can be free of the yolk around his neck/anchor around feet known as the bat family because honestly they do nothing for him other than dragging him down. It's a win-win for everybody.

Dude, what are you talking about? It's not much of a family if they break apart. Most people seem to have an issue with the LACK of inclusion of the family and the fact that certain writers can't seem to have Batman interact without being an *******. People don't have an issue with Batman and the family being together, they hate how writers seem to constantly screw up their interactions.