[Spoiler] Batman 77 Preview and Discussion thread

[Inversed]

I definitely disagree with you regarding the manchild aspect. You don't think Catwoman being able to beat Talia, who was raised in the League of Assassins, in a sword fight or her beating Bane, or her beating the Flashes is her being portrayed as a CatGOD type character?

You seem to be forgetting that this supposed "CatGod" who is smarter and superior to everyone else, got outsmarted by Bane and ran away. Beating a couple people in a fight is nothing, especially ones who aren't foolproof already.

Most people leave the other thread alone, so I don't think the rage is as absolute as you're making it out to be. If it were, you'd have no safe haven from it. Instead, people have been kept to the issue threads and, instead of just raging out, having articulated pretty well the things that they hate about King's run.

You were the one who insulted and raged against people who dared to say that King wasn't fired, and when it turned out to be true you were silent. And given your tone and projection regarding most of your comments, especially compared to others who actually articulated their complaints fairly well, its clear their more issues for you going on.

[Ansa]

There really needs to be a wall of separation between Batman and the bat family, they just don't seem to mix, like oil and water. Batman is always made to be the bad guy when dealing with the family in any capacity, any conflict or misunderstandings is seen as his fault, all the blame is put on him. I say just seperate them, let the family do their own thing and let Batman do his own thing. It's always the same story, Bruce is a jerk, a *******, a bad father, a terrible person and on and on. But yet for all the hate that bat family fans level at Bruce they always complain that the family never appear in bat books or bat events. I'm mean if Batman is so terrible why do they even want the family anywhere near him, why would they want them to be associated with him at all? When Duke and Hal were said to be Batman's closest allies in Metal family fans were upset, when the possibility of Damian not being Bruce's son was teased in the Deathstroke vs Batman series fans were upset; why? Is it because despite all the Batman hate they know his mega popularity and they know the family benefits from being in Batman's orbit. They know that if not for the fact that he's Batman's son that Damian would not be anywhere near as relevant as he is, hell he probably wouldn't even be alive. All this is to say that hating and beating up on Bruce is the cool thing to do and has been for awhile now. Family fans love it when they go off on him because it makes them badass or something. Yet Batman continues to chug on as one of the top books (despite King's abysmal run) in the industry and the family continues to trail in his wake. So I think the best thing would be a clean break, the family can do their thing in their own books without the bat jerk being a domineering presence and bossing them around. And Batman can be free of the yolk around his neck/anchor around feet known as the bat family because honestly they do nothing for him other than dragging him down. It's a win-win for everybody.

As the other person already said: What the hell are you talking about? I hate that DC/King seperated the batfamily and Bruce treats them like trash, I want that character to be a better father/leader, apologize for his actions and spend more time with them. If a writer decides to make him act like a good father for once you get some amazing moments.
I adore Batman and Robin (2011), I loved the scene in metal when Bruce said his children filled him with wonder, I'm happy everytime Bruce says that he loves his family.
But I'm angry that Bruce may say that he loves them a lot to himself (even King does that), but he doesn't act like it when they interact. Yeah Batman has problems expressing himself, but at the moment I would go as far as to say that he's nothing more than abusive parent and an ******* to them.

[Hulkout42]

I definitely disagree with you regarding the manchild aspect. You don't think Catwoman being able to beat Talia, who was raised in the League of Assassins, in a sword fight or her beating Bane, or her beating the Flashes is her being portrayed as a CatGOD type character?

Curiouser and curiouser.

So basically it's not ok for her to do the impossible but it is ok for Batman to do it?

I'm not picking a fight, I genuinely want to know.

[Hulkout42]

It is quite amazing to see such a division of opinions over a Comic run.
Been a while since I have seen something of this magnitude.

Personally, I'm 50/50 on this run.

I heavily disliked Spoiler and Batgirl, I don't know how they were when someone else wrote them but here I hated their holier than thou attitude towards the Bat. Frankly, I would have rather seen Gordon back in the wheelchair, I liked her more as Oracle than Batgirl.

I liked the interactions between Clayface and Cassandra Cain tbh, it hurt to see him get killed yet glad when he popped up alive even if it was just to make sure she was going to be ok.

Hated Batwoman, her dad and his private militia of bat fakes and that little **** who tried to concert Tim to the Darkside, I especially hated her when she shot Clayface (not forgetting that anytime soon...and the new CW series to probably stoke the flames of that hatred).

Finally, I really enjoyed seeing the interactions between Bat and Cat and others' reactions to it. I loved how his sons and Duke freaked when Alfred tells them they have gone to get Holly from Talia. I loved the double date with Clark and Lois, I loved them doing things the other liked...even if they weren't legal per say. I liked Happy Batman over constantly brooding/misreable Batman.

I'm pretty much neutral on King but will see if that change at the end of his run or not.

But as far as potential comments that may come after mine I will say this: King can't make everyone happy and he shouldn't even bother to & No one forced anyone to read his work, if you read it and don't like that's on the reader and not the writter so people should just accept resposability for their actions and not needless lash out at others who don't share their opinions.

Some people like King, some hate him and the world will keep spinning regardless.

[Celgress]

....But as far as potential comments that may come after mine I will say this: King can't make everyone happy and he shouldn't even bother to & No one forced anyone to read his work, if you read it and don't like that's on the reader and not the writter so people should just accept resposability for their actions and not needless lash out at others who don't share their opinions...

A germane point one I often bring up when defending free speech. If you don't like something don't constantly whine and complain rather just don't listen. If you hate King's run (as I do) vote with your wallet by not buying the issues (as I've done most of the time)

[Scott Taylor]

You seem to be forgetting that this supposed "CatGod" who is smarter and superior to everyone else, got outsmarted by Bane and ran away. Beating a couple people in a fight is nothing, especially ones who aren't foolproof already.

Especially considering that the alternative to CatGod beating Talia is actually TaliaGod, which is equally stupid and just as bad as BatGod. Normals should be able to take out normals, whether its due to luck, training or some other factor. In King's world, anyone can take out anyone else if the conditions are right. Batman took out Superman with a whistle. Catwoman took out three flashes.

This run is a bit whackadoodle at times. Its fun. This is what comics are supposed to be.

[BatmanJones]

Especially considering that the alternative to CatGod beating Talia is actually TaliaGod, which is equally stupid and just as bad as BatGod. Normals should be able to take out normals, whether its due to luck, training or some other factor. In King's world, anyone can take out anyone else if the conditions are right. Batman took out Superman with a whistle. Catwoman took out three flashes.

This run is a bit whackadoodle at times. Its fun. This is what comics are supposed to be.

Word.

I also love how nobody mentions that the Flashes were under Poison Ivy's control. It's just "Catwoman took out three Flashes" as if they were at the height of their powers when she did it.

As for defending my love of King's run, no thanks. I'm not going to change anyone's mind and I don't come to this board to debate my love of a thing that I love. Plus, I've answered calls to defend it on a review aggregate site and no answer is ever good enough. Nobody wants to be enlightened about such a thing, only to try to argue you into changing your mind and that's not going to happen.

I don't demand folks that hate it explain their hatred of it, though those that do hate it are very happy to share their reasons. I'm totally cool with people hating it. Would that people were similarly okay with me saying I love it.

Personally when I hate something I'll say it once or twice, but not as a direct response to someone that loves it. I'm not trying to sour anyone's enjoyment of a thing they're enjoying. I do find it really baffling why anyone would spend so much time talking about hating a thing though.

Nobody needs to be like me (and nobody should be) but I come here to talk about the things I love, not things I hate. Threads about favorite stories appeal to me; threads about least favorites don't at all. Bemoaning comics I'm not enjoying or haven't enjoyed just feels like a great way to turn my favorite pastime into a drag. Again, that's to me. Everyone else should keep doing whatever gives them pleasure.

[Ansa]

Especially considering that the alternative to CatGod beating Talia is actually TaliaGod, which is equally stupid and just as bad as BatGod. Normals should be able to take out normals, whether its due to luck, training or some other factor. In King's world, anyone can take out anyone else if the conditions are right. Batman took out Superman with a whistle. Catwoman took out three flashes.

This run is a bit whackadoodle at times. Its fun. This is what comics are supposed to be.

Talia is a trained assassin and master swordswoman. Selina admitted to holding a sword only once or twice in her life. The whole fight was stupid as hell.

[Godlike13]

"Trained Assassin", “Master Swordswoman", these titles mean very little really. Selina and the others regularly fight people who are trained and masters, and Selina is no slouch. Talia has never been an imposing physical threat. That’s kind of the point with her, and quite frankly it’s a bit beneath her even.

[Korath]

"Trained Assassin", “Master Swordswoman", these titles mean very little really. Selina and the others regularly fight people who are trained and masters, and Selina is no slouch. Talia has never been an imposing physical threat. That’s kind of the point with her, and quite frankly it’s a bit beneath her even.

She's the daughter of Ra's al Ghul. The Demon's head to not allow weakness in his inner circle, family or not. All her children were at some point trained to kill and fight. Even Nyssa who had to find him impressed him because of her warrior skills. And he had Talia with him since she was birthed. She is at peak physical condition and trained because it is a condition of being alive near Ra's al Ghul, and she has demonstrated elsewhere that she is incredibly deadly herself still (such as in Silencer, where she died because she overestimated her hold on her former elite assassin).

She personally battled her son at least once a year for his birthday during ten years, and the kid underwent a grueling training regimen all year round and lost only once. Talia is a trained fighter, even if she isn't physically imposing. That Selina beat her with guile, her agility and her lash poses me no problem, because even for a trained assassin, such a combination must be hard to fight. But Selina won a duel with blades, when she admitted that she had almost never even held one. That's a problem here and elsewhere in King's run : he elevates some characters not by having them perform to the best of their abilities but by belittling and weakening their opponents.

Again, that Selina beat Talia isn't the end of the world or anything. But the way she did it made no sense. She's a thief. She may be skilled in hand to hand combat, and with her usual weapons, but a blade is extremely different. And yet she stomped Talia.

[Godlike13]

She's the the daughter of Ra's al Ghul and his infamous prop. The prize for his next heir. Being a trained fighter is not a big deal, being trained by the League of Assassins isn't even that big of a deal as lets be real. Most of those guys are fodder. Talia has never been some elite fighter, not that she doesn't know how to fight, or that she isn't deadly, but not because of how she fights in strait up fights. Talia didn't get stomped, and ultimately Selina beat Talia by turning the fight into a brawl. Selina is the more accomplished combatant in general. She's fought against people with swords before. That isn't some insurmountable obstacle. All she had to do was take the swords away, which is what she did. They had an issue long fight though. That wasn't a case of "im one of the best fighters in the word" *one punch*, Tyrion ****. Even Silencer stomped her harder the Selina did.

[Korath]

Her not fighting often doesn't preclude her for being more skilled in a duel than Catwoman. Or must I assume that Ra's not that great of a fighter because, as the head of the LoA, he doesn't kill all his targets ?

For me, Talia is very plainly an elite fighter, when Catwoman isn't. That's just one more reason to dislike King's run, and a very minor one, but it still grates.

[Godlike13]

There is more work to support Catwoman as a fighter then there is for Talia. Now if were talking kill you in your sleep, take over the world, things fall into Talia favor, but in a one on one fight when exactly did that fall out of Selina's favor.

[Talon1load]

You seem to be forgetting that this supposed "CatGod" who is smarter and superior to everyone else, got outsmarted by Bane and ran away. Beating a couple people in a fight is nothing, especially ones who aren't foolproof already.



You were the one who insulted and raged against people who dared to say that King wasn't fired, and when it turned out to be true you were silent. And given your tone and projection regarding most of your comments, especially compared to others who actually articulated their complaints fairly well, its clear their more issues for you going on.

Funny, I believe that if we look back at the discussion you were the one raging. I tried to be, for the most part, pretty calm about it. I went "silent" as you say because I moved on with my life. I like how you continously try to insult me though. Really shows how limited you are.

[Talon1load]

Curiouser and curiouser.

So basically it's not ok for her to do the impossible but it is ok for Batman to do it?

I'm not picking a fight, I genuinely want to know.

Where did I say that it was ok for Batman to be BatGOD? I just want a Batman who isn't incompenent and who acts like he did for 80 years prior to King coming on the title.