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  1. #31
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    I think the question to always be asked in these forums is: if you were in charge of DC, would your personal preferences be more important in your decision making than continuing to collect your paycheck? IMO, too many people here forget the latter is vastly more important than the former to those holding the position.
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  2. #32
    Incredible Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    The problem is - longtime fans are still obsessed with the 80s/90s DCU and characters, and DC isn't playing to that fanbase anymore. At least directly.

    And there's your disconnect - they view the roles as important, not the characters that used to inhabit them.
    DC decided to have a single cohesive continuity in the mid-80's, so we read and were invested in it and expcted it to continue and build upon itself.

    Tim's progression as Red Robin was fine and he was still fairly popular. They crapped on him and most of his YJ4/TT group when New 52 came around. Just poor ideas and execution.

    Bendis wanted to do YJ, DC wasn't doing anything else with the characters, and really so far, they have been pretty disconnected from their respective DC families.
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  3. #33
    Spectacular Member Dr. Ellingham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    You seem to be suggesting that Johns just brought back Wally because of his own personal preferences and everything was hunky-dory before that. It wasn't.
    Oh I know - I visit this forum

    My point was more that DC de-aged Wally and made him Kid Flash with the New 52 - that was their "solution". But Johns always wanted Wally to be the Kyle Rayner to Barry's Hal Jordan, so DCU Rebirth was his opportunity to try again. But upon his leaving DC, they are left answering the question of what to do with two Wally Wests. So far, their answer has been... controversial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Fiction, by its nature, invites people to get attached to the characters they read about. Wally is no different, as past fan behavior has shown. So, its completely understandable that fans feel disenfranchised when DC chooses to either ignore or flat out denigrate one of their favorite characters.
    Except - if DC stops publishing a book, that's their prerogative. They don't owe us new Flash stories. Or more specifically, new Wally West stories.

    At this point any reasonable person would assume DC is done utilizing Wally in a manner similar to his use pre-Infinite Crisis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Except we're not talking about outside the comics.
    I am, because I recognize the comics strategy is downstream from the overall IP strategy.

    Look, DC knows they could publish a Barry comic and a Wally comic, and each could successfully sell 40-50k copies per month. Or they could sell 2 Barry comics per month that would sell roughly the same. Which is what they did.

    The reason why is overlap - the audience for those two iterations of the Flash are 99% the same. So having two lead characters just to satisfy that 1% is just...unimportant. And in terms of branding, arguably the wrong strategy.

  4. #34
    Spectacular Member Dr. Ellingham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixSpeedSamurai View Post
    DC decided to have a single cohesive continuity in the mid-80's, so we read and were invested in it and expcted it to continue and build upon itself.
    DC had a cohesive continuity before the mid-80s. That era was simply when they collapsed the various characters into one hemogenous world.

    And I read both. And recognized that at some point, they may make further "corrections". After all all, once you've done the unthinkable, doing it again is a lot easier.

    Point being: DC doesn't owe its readers a continuation of anything. Universes, characters, etc.

  5. #35
    Spectacular Member Dr. Ellingham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    would your personal preferences be more important in your decision making than continuing to collect your paycheck? IMO, too many people here forget the latter is vastly more important than the former to those holding the position.
    Yes. I'm leery of the binary view that just because DC isn't publishing what I want, they're just evil, foolish or incompetent.

    And the other binary view - everyone will want what I like. Or should.

    When the truth is - if you were reading comics pre-2005, DC knows they already got your money, and you're not moving their needle anymore. That's the reality for me, and for most of the people over 35 on this forum, in fact.

  6. #36
    Incredible Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    DC had a cohesive continuity before the mid-80s. That era was simply when they collapsed the various characters into one hemogenous world.

    And I read both. And recognized that at some point, they may make further "corrections". After all all, once you've done the unthinkable, doing it again is a lot easier.

    Point being: DC doesn't owe its readers a continuation of anything. Universes, characters, etc.
    They don't owe us anything, but if they want our dollars, it would make sense to contiue that universe we've invested in and grown with instead of chucking it out the window. CoIE at least made sense, New 52 was not needed.
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  7. #37
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixSpeedSamurai View Post
    They don't owe us anything, but if they want our dollars, it would make sense to contiue that universe we've invested in and grown with instead of chucking it out the window. CoIE at least made sense, New 52 was not needed.
    Both were made for the same reason, though - to increase revenue fast and significantly, while getting media exposure in the process.
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  8. #38
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    Yes. I'm leery of the binary view that just because DC isn't publishing what I want, they're just evil, foolish or incompetent.

    And the other binary view - everyone will want what I like. Or should.

    When the truth is - if you were reading comics pre-2005, DC knows they already got your money, and you're not moving their needle anymore. That's the reality for me, and for most of the people over 35 on this forum, in fact.
    I agree. That's why I just go with the flow - I buy the comics I like and ignore the ones I don't. No need to raise my blood pressure over any of this.
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  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    Oh I know - I visit this forum

    My point was more that DC de-aged Wally and made him Kid Flash with the New 52 - that was their "solution". But Johns always wanted Wally to be the Kyle Rayner to Barry's Hal Jordan, so DCU Rebirth was his opportunity to try again. But upon his leaving DC, they are left answering the question of what to do with two Wally Wests. So far, their answer has been... controversial.
    Again, you’re making it sound like bringing back the original Wally was just all Johns’s personal fancy. That’s not true. It was obvious from the massive amount of fan backlash that people really didn’t take to the new version of Wally West that debuted in the New 52. Bringing back OG Wally was DC doing damage control.

    Except - if DC stops publishing a book, that's their prerogative. They don't owe us new Flash stories. Or more specifically, new Wally West stories.

    At this point any reasonable person would assume DC is done utilizing Wally in a manner similar to his use pre-Infinite Crisis.
    They’re not legally obligated to or anything, no. But as SixSpeedSamurai just pointed out, DC is supposed to be in the business of publishing books and selling them to their fanbase. Therefore, you'd think they might wanna publish things that, I dunno, their fans might want to see because therefore they might sell more books? I think it’s pretty obvious that fans are annoyed with the way they’re treating Wally. You can only push a fanbase so far until they get fed up and you end up losing their business.

    I am, because I recognize the comics strategy is downstream from the overall IP strategy.
    Except I have yet to see a cogent argument as to why it’s necessary for outside media for Barry to be the one and only Flash. Even the Flash TV show has managed to show Jay and Barry and Wally all at once. So, why do the comics need to have only Barry.

    Look, DC knows they could publish a Barry comic and a Wally comic, and each could successfully sell 40-50k copies per month. Or they could sell 2 Barry comics per month that would sell roughly the same. Which is what they did.
    Or they could sell a Barry title and a Wally title, making it 4 Flash comics the sell a month. The refusal to give Wally his due is just stubbornness at this point.

    The reason why is overlap - the audience for those two iterations of the Flash are 99% the same. So having two lead characters just to satisfy that 1% is just...unimportant. And in terms of branding, arguably the wrong strategy.
    Well, firstly, I’d say you’re probably vastly underselling Wally West’s fanbase. Secondly, again then why do we currently have two characters selling titles under the name Spider-Man? Heck, why is Spider-Man even starring in multiple titles? By your logic, fans of Spider-Man should be content with only Amazing Spider-Man. Batman fans should be content with only the main Batman title. No Detective or any Bat-family titles.

    Of course, we know that that’s ridiculous. If that 99% of fans are fans enough to buy the main Flash title starring Barry Allen, they’re likely also fans enough to buy another Flash title starring Wally West. Again, that’s just DC leaving money on the table.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 08-22-2019 at 03:58 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixSpeedSamurai View Post
    They don't owe us anything, but if they want our dollars, it would make sense to contiue that universe we've invested in and grown with instead of chucking it out the window. CoIE at least made sense, New 52 was not needed.
    I wouldn’t say they were necessarily done for the same reason. However, only one of them failed because of the controversial and oft-derided creative decisions taken.

  11. #41
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    I agree. That's why I just go with the flow - I buy the comics I like and ignore the ones I don't. No need to raise my blood pressure over any of this.
    I'm kind of the same, though I think DC could stand to be much more respectful of getting rid of the characters they don't need.
    Like have Wally retire from being the Flash and focus on his kids with Linda; have Roy retire from active crime fighting and raise Lian. Write Cass Cain out of the book with a well done arc, don't do the OYL stuff.

    There is no way they will keep every single character they have in publication at all times, but they deserve some of the flack they get for the way they go about "cleaning house."

    Quote Originally Posted by SixSpeedSamurai View Post
    They don't owe us anything, but if they want our dollars, it would make sense to contiue that universe we've invested in and grown with instead of chucking it out the window. CoIE at least made sense, New 52 was not needed.
    ...Did it, though? It wasn't any more needed than the New 52, and is the root cause of all our continuity problems.

    it was better done overall than the New 52 though.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I'm kind of the same, though I think DC could stand to be much more respectful of getting rid of the characters they don't need.
    Like have Wally retire from being the Flash and focus on his kids with Linda; have Roy retire from active crime fighting and raise Lian. Write Cass Cain out of the book with a well done arc, don't do the OYL stuff.

    There is no way they will keep every single character they have in publication at all times, but they deserve some of the flack they get for the way they go about "cleaning house."



    ...Did it, though? It wasn't any more needed than the New 52, and is the root cause of all our continuity problems.

    it was better done overall than the New 52 though.
    I do the same but what happen when your down to basically nothing. 2 years ago i had 8 pulls my last book unaffected by bends ended in july, so I am miserable because i have noting i like or want to be invested in.

  13. #43
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    They could just cut the line down to the core members of the Justice League and a team book.

    How much would that take care of?

  14. #44
    DC Comics Forum Mod The Darknight Detective's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I'm kind of the same, though I think DC could stand to be much more respectful of getting rid of the characters they don't need.
    Like have Wally retire from being the Flash and focus on his kids with Linda; have Roy retire from active crime fighting and raise Lian. Write Cass Cain out of the book with a well done arc, don't do the OYL stuff.

    There is no way they will keep every single character they have in publication at all times, but they deserve some of the flack they get for the way they go about "cleaning house."
    I absolutely agree with you. Respect for the displaced characters and their fans should always be in effect, which wasn't always the case in either the DCU or the New52.
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  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Iím sorry, but that just doesnít capture how important of a character Jay is in the DC Universe. Iíd say that being a founding and permanent member of what is essentially one of the flagship teams of the DC Universe is a pretty big deal for someone who is using the same identity as another one of DCís main heroes.

    Again, Green Lantern was in a similar situation with Alan Scott not only coexisting alongside Hal Jordan, Kyle Rayner, John Stewart, Guy Gardener, and the others, but literally having nothing to do with the Corps. And again, nobody had any issues with that for decades. Nobody was confused with the idea of Jay Garrick co-existing alongside Barry or Wally. So why would they have issue with Wally coexisting alongside Barry? Especially if they treated it similarly to the classic Batman/Nightwing set up, not that Nightwing is currently being treated much better than Wally.
    Wally is currently coexisting alongside Barry, in the same capacity Jay Garrick co-existed alongside Barry/Wally, which is the example you gave. So what's the complaint?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Well that doesnít really matter since he became so important to the Flash comics that it was hard to even imagine those comics or the Flash family without him.
    It's relevant when you're saying they should treat Barry/Wally the same way they treated Barry/Jay and Wally/Jay. Jay was gone for 6 years. He didn't show up in Wally's Flash comic until #73. The Justice Society comic was cancelled after 10 issues, then it took another 6 years for the series to return.

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