Tim Drake getting a name change...

[CTTT]

isn't that a double standard or a breaking of Dan Didio's "no older protege sidekicks alongside main hero's" rule? Dick Grayson makes Batman look old but this doesn't? How about having a son (Damian)? The argument has a bunch of holes in it and is stupid. Seeing an older DG fight alongside Batman makes both of them look cool, as I'm sure others agree. But no, Roy makes GA look old so lets kill him(but hey he's back in Flash Forward at least). Dick? Well, lets shoot him in the head and call him Ric. Since I can't kill him, I'll erase his memories. And Garth? Oh yeah give Aquaman amnesia too so he doesn't remember. Oh and who's the culprit? Wally West another "older protege". But Tim Drake and a new name and costume? Perfectly fine. Fact is fans like myself want to read both the main hero and the protege and what's wrong with that? Didio can't stop what fans want and there are writers at DC who love these characters too.

[jetengine]

Its so Bendis can claim residuals, its why he's changing so much.

[Lee]

Fact is fans like myself want to read both the main hero and the protege and what's wrong with that? Didio can't stop what fans want and there are writers at DC who love these characters too.

A new name doesn’t take the character away. You can still read about him.

[Restingvoice]

isn't that a double standard or a breaking of Dan Didio's "no older protege sidekicks alongside main hero's" rule? Dick Grayson makes Batman look old but this doesn't? How about having a son (Damian)? The argument has a bunch of holes in it and is stupid. Seeing an older DG fight alongside Batman makes both of them look cool, as I'm sure others agree. But no, Roy makes GA look old so lets kill him(but hey he's back in Flash Forward at least). Dick? Well, lets shoot him in the head and call him Ric. Since I can't kill him, I'll erase his memories. And Garth? Oh yeah give Aquaman amnesia too so he doesn't remember. Oh and who's the culprit? Wally West another "older protege". But Tim Drake and a new name and costume? Perfectly fine. Fact is fans like myself want to read both the main hero and the protege and what's wrong with that? Didio can't stop what fans want and there are writers at DC who love these characters too.

The keyword is "older". Tim doesn't threaten the League generation that Didio wants to be in their prime, whereas the Titans generation are in their prime and have the same skills as their League counterparts. If they get more popular, they can replace the League gen just like the League replaced the Society.

[CTTT]

The keyword is "older". Tim doesn't threaten the League generation that Didio wants to be in their prime, whereas the Titans generation are in their prime and have the same skills as their League counterparts. If they get more popular, they can replace the League gen just like the League replaced the Society.

The JL has been around forever. Other popular characters being around won't cancel JL, Superman Batman Wonder Woman titles. Where did this conspiracy come about that the Titans threaten the popularity of the Justice League? Asinine thinking.

[jetengine]

The JL has been around forever. Other popular characters being around won't cancel JL, Superman Batman Wonder Woman titles. Where did this conspiracy come about that the Titans threaten the popularity of the Justice League? Asinine thinking.

Dan Didio. EIC. Hates Wally West snd Nightwing because they "age" their mentors.

[phonogram12]

I agree that the Titans era group of heroes do age up the Big 7 probably more than TPTB are comfortable with. They've always struggled to figure out something to do with them, anyway. But all it really takes to do something interesting with them is for a good writer to want to and the right editor to say yes. I'm pretty sure if it weren't for Bendis, Young Justice would be MIA.

[Dr. Ellingham]

I agree that the Titans era group of heroes do age up the Big 7 probably more than TPTB are comfortable with. They've always struggled to figure out something to do with them, anyway.

Exactly. DC editorial doesn't hate sidekick characters. They just doing see the point of having Speedy I, Speed II and Speedy III all running around. Their strategy is pick one, run with it.

The problem is - longtime fans are still obsessed with the 80s/90s DCU and characters, and DC isn't playing to that fanbase anymore. At least directly.

And there's your disconnect - they view the roles as important, not the characters that used to inhabit them.

[Uncanny Mutie]

DC editorial doesn't hate sidekick characters. They just doing see the point of having Speedy I, Speed II and Speedy III all running around. Their strategy is pick one, run with it.

The problem is - longtime fans are still obsessed with the 80s/90s DCU and characters, and DC isn't playing to that fanbase anymore. At least directly.

And there's your disconnect - they view the roles as important, not the characters that used to inhabit them.

This pretty much sums it up...

[phonogram12]

Exactly. DC editorial doesn't hate sidekick characters. They just doing see the point of having Speedy I, Speed II and Speedy III all running around. Their strategy is pick one, run with it.

The problem is - longtime fans are still obsessed with the 80s/90s DCU and characters, and DC isn't playing to that fanbase anymore. At least directly.

And there's your disconnect - they view the roles as important, not the characters that used to inhabit them.

Bingo.

..........

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Exactly. DC editorial doesn't hate sidekick characters. They just doing see the point of having Speedy I, Speed II and Speedy III all running around. Their strategy is pick one, run with it.

The problem is - longtime fans are still obsessed with the 80s/90s DCU and characters, and DC isn't playing to that fanbase anymore. At least directly.

And there's your disconnect - they view the roles as important, not the characters that used to inhabit them.

I don’t think this really captures the situation accurately. There’s obviously an implicit bias in who TPTB want to inhabit those roles. I mean, why even go through the trouble of reviving Barry unless they specifically wanted Barry to be the main Flash? Why go so far to literally erase Wally and then assassinate his character if not to make Barry look better by comparison?

In the minds of those in charge, only Barry Allen can be Flash and he has to be in his “prime.” That means removing everyone who might be perceived as “aging” him to a certain extent. That not only means Wally, but also Bart, Jai, Irey, and almost two-thirds of the Flash family. The same thing is being wrought on the Bat-family because god forbid that Bruce Wayne be in his forties, despite the fact that he actually has been portrayed as a man of a certain age for decades and it’s hard to imagine him younger. Dick Grayson likewise has been in his twenties for, again, decades.

The problem with the mindset of TPTB though is that yeah, the characters that they wish didn’t exist are massively popular and classic DC characters in their own right. So, since they now know that fans would outright just stop buying DC if those characters were killed off, they’ve decided it’s best to just denigrate them and make sure they’re out of the spotlight. So it’s not like their fanbases don’t have reason to be pissed. Though, looking at the market share numbers, it seems fans have given up on the current state of the DCU already.

[Dr. Ellingham]

I don’t think this really captures the situation accurately. There’s obviously an implicit bias in who TPTB want to inhabit those roles.

Sure, but it's not really bias - it's a choice, a decision. It's the job to make the best decisions - according to one's own judgment, knowing some % of your audience will disapprove.

In the minds of those in charge, only Barry Allen can be Flash and he has to be in his “prime.” That means removing everyone who might be perceived as “aging” him to a certain extent.

Not at all. They brought Barry back as a lead-in to a linewide reboot. So - new Barry, new Wally, Jay on Earth 2.

It's Bart that was one supporting character too many at that point, going back to what I said earlier. The roles are the Flash, the old Flash and the kid Flash. That's what they had in the 60s on up to the New 52. For most of those 50 years, anyway.

So it’s not like their fanbases don’t have reason to be pissed.

For a little while, absolutely.

Long term? Using Wally West as an example, it's been misuse after misuse since 2006. Instead of begging DC to change it's ways, we should recognize the scenario - Wally's a football, DC is Lucy, and Wally fans are Charlie Brown. How long do we play Lucy's victim?

[Godlike13]

Didio’s Logic doesn’t apply to Tim and his gen. Nightwing is redundant and has to go, but Red Robin was cool and worked so well, so let’s try to do that again. And while we’re at it let’s have a Batwing, a Talon, and pair Red Hood with some Titans.

Whatever. Seems they realized they need Nightwing and Wally around just so they can give industry relics, who’s ideas and work do nothing in today’s market, some work.

[Darkcrusade25]

Didio’s Logic doesn’t apply to Tim and his gen. Nightwing is redundant and has to go, but Red Robin was cool and worked so well, so let’s try to do that again. And while we’re at it let’s have a Batwing, a Talon, and pair Red Hood with some Titans.

Whatever. Seems they realized they need Nightwing and Wally around just so they can give industry relics, who’s ideas and work do nothing in today’s market, some work.

Well to be fair, I remember back in summer 2016, someone here said that Didio stated that Bart and Conner was shelved. TT N52 ended so Cassie got shelved. When Bendis started Wonder Comics he wanted a fresh slate and ask Didio if there was any and he recommended YJ. They were virtually empty slates so that’s why they got a lucky break. I have no doubt in my mind that if Wonder Comics didn’t start, the only gen that Didio would care about is Justice League and Teen Titans.

It’s a frustrating thought tbh though. Because DC seems to only care about JL and whoever is a new gen. Dick’s gen was afforded a small spotlight in 2016 so they can get some good Will.

[Godlike13]

For a generation DC doesn't care about, they sure do like launching lines around them. Tim and his gen are not and never have been in the same boat as characters like Dick or Wally and their gen, or even notably former shelved character like Steph and Cass. For instance you won't see DC giving them to any of their top paid current creators anytime soon, even if those creators wanted them. Hell new gens don't even get a chance before they get undercut.
I don't really get it either, because besides Conner its not like that gen has anything going for them beyond comics, and even within the comic market that gen seems pretty dead in the water. Barely doing better then the current TTs. Which has a creative team i don't think they are paying nearly as much. Trying over and over, despite having nothing to show for it, with bigger and bigger creators is not somethings that happens to characters those within DC don't care about.