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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Ad Frontier pointed out, what Wally needs is to be allowed to exist without being hampered or weighed down by story arcs specifically designed to hamper and weigh him down and "remove" him from being a "threat" to Barry.
    Has anyone at DC ever called him a "threat"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    And as for what he lacks, well, his civilian name being taken isn't really his fault given that he was the first to have that name. Also, and its been a long time since I read Mark Waid's Flash, but wasn't Keystone always cemented as being Wally's city as opposed to Central City, which was Barry's?
    Jay Garrick is getting screwed!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    But honestly, who says that a successful spin-off character needs to be unique in every aspect of their character?
    I don't know who says that. I said he needs something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    She-Hulk had pretty similar powers to the original Hulk.
    I think She-Hulk is a great example of taking a conceptually derivative character and turning them into something more worthwhile. Originally she was little more than a gender-swapped Hulk. Then they hit upon the idea of her loving being She-Hulk, made her a fun and sexy character, made her second series a fourth-wall breaking comedy that played with conventions of the format and genre.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Guy Gardner is still rocking a Green Lantern ring, despite there being like five other human Lanterns.
    Green Lantern's better equipped at handling multiple heroes, since it's baked into the concept. When the concept is "the fastest man alive", there's less wiggle room. Still, DC hasn't been in any rush to give the secondary Green Lanterns a solo series. Team-up series, sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Miles Morales is still swinging around NYC, wearing essentially a variation of Peter's costume, and still calling himself Spider-Man, isn't he?
    If Marvel owned Flash, we'd have seen multiple spin-offs by now. For whatever reason, DC is more conservative about spin-off series outside of their Batman titles, and more so about giving a cancelled series a second shot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    So, sorry, but I don't see how Wally's situation is any different. In fact, I think this idea that Wally needs something more to set himself apart is just justification for DC's current unwarranted treatment of him.
    You think wrong. I don't like how DC is currently handling the character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Wally has enough distinguishing characteristics that set him apart from Barry just by virtue of being who he is. So I don't think there's much risk, if any, that Wally will come off as redundant. At least, its not any more likely with him than it is with Kyle Rayner or Miles Morales or Guy Gardner or literally any other legacy/spin-off character.
    Wally West, as he is, can continue existing in the relatively limited capacity he currently is. But fans on this forum are constantly demanding an ongoing solo series and a more prominent role in the DC Universe. If that's going to happen, then there needs to be something significant to set him apart from Flash (Barry Allen) and Kid Flash. Otherwise, he can continue being the Kyle Rayner.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Has anyone at DC ever called him a "threat"?
    Not publically, but I do think they view him as an issue with promoting Barry as the main Flash.
    Green Lantern's better equipped at handling multiple heroes, since it's baked into the concept. When the concept is "the fastest man alive", there's less wiggle room. Still, DC hasn't been in any rush to give the secondary Green Lanterns a solo series. Team-up series, sure.
    Ironically the Fastest Man Alive isn't the one currently leading The Flash solo .

    But the GL's are a whole other can of worms.
    If Marvel owned Flash, we'd have seen multiple spin-offs by now. For whatever reason, DC is more conservative about spin-off series outside of their Batman titles, and more so about giving a cancelled series a second shot.
    Or giving legacy heroes a chance at their own solo series, at least for some of them.
    Wally West, as he is, can continue existing in the relatively limited capacity he currently is. But fans on this forum are constantly demanding an ongoing solo series and a more prominent role in the DC Universe. If that's going to happen, then there needs to be something significant to set him apart from Flash (Barry Allen) and Kid Flash. Otherwise, he can continue being the Kyle Rayner.
    I would think Wally's history and character would be enough to do that, but DC really doesn't seem to want to bank on him as a character.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I would think Wally's history and character would be enough to do that, but DC really doesn't seem to want to bank on him as a character.
    What's the pitch, the high concept? What demographic is it aimed at? How do you sell it to someone who doesn't have a deep knowledge of DC lore?

    "He's another version of the Flash who also has adventures and fights bad guys but he has red hair and his personality is a bit different" isn't going to cut it long-term.

    A Wally West ongoing series would have to make sense from a brand management and publishing strategy perspective.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Has anyone at DC ever called him a "threat"?
    Not publically. But I think the current treatment of Wally and the constant promotion of Barry Allen speaks for itself. Not to say that that's Barry's fault, but he certainly benefits from it.

    Jay Garrick is getting screwed!!!
    Yes, he is, but that's a whole other story.

    I don't know who says that. I said he needs something.
    And I'm saying he has plenty enough that makes him unique as it stands

    I think She-Hulk is a great example of taking a conceptually derivative character and turning them into something more worthwhile. Originally she was little more than a gender-swapped Hulk. Then they hit upon the idea of her loving being She-Hulk, made her a fun and sexy character, made her second series a fourth-wall breaking comedy that played with conventions of the format and genre.
    Except, again, Wally already has enough that makes him unique. You seem to be forgetting that, throughout much Wally's time as the Flash, DC focused a lot of energy on establishing just how different Wally was from Barry. Barry was always more buttoned-up and straight-laced, while Wally was witty and had more of a sense of humor. Barry was dependable whereas Wally struggled with meeting responsibilities, at least at first. Barry always maintained his secret identity while Wally's identity as the Flash was known publically. Wally was sort of the Peter Parker of the DC Universe whereas Barry acted more like Steve Rogers.

    However now, instead of re-focusing on those personality differences and unique traits so they could have two successful protagonists in a burgeoning franchise, DC has chosen to limit the franchise and just take all of what made Wally popular and apply it to Barry. They're essentially making Barry into a clone of who Wally was in the 90s.

    Green Lantern's better equipped at handling multiple heroes, since it's baked into the concept. When the concept is "the fastest man alive", there's less wiggle room. Still, DC hasn't been in any rush to give the secondary Green Lanterns a solo series. Team-up series, sure.
    Not really.

    For one, just a few years ago, all of the human Green Lanterns at that time, were headlining their own series. So, its shown that its possible to have multiple stars in a franchise.

    Secondly, I wouldn't say "Fastest Man Alive" is the literal core concept of the Flash. The core concept of the Flash is literally just about a person or people who have superhuman speed. And, if anything, the introduction of the Speed Force, which has become one of the main parts of Flash lore makes the presence of multiple speedsters pretty much a given in the Flash comics. Again, the Flash for many years was about the Flash family and even recent comics have focused a lot on multiple people being granted the same powers as the Flash.

    Though, its ironic that if it is supposed to be about the fastest many alive, that would mean that Wally should be the main protagonist. He's been established in canon as being faster than Barry as recently as Flash War.

    If Marvel owned Flash, we'd have seen multiple spin-offs by now. For whatever reason, DC is more conservative about spin-off series outside of their Batman titles, and more so about giving a cancelled series a second shot.
    Actually, if anything, Marvel has historically been more skiddish about introducing spin-off characters and its only recently that Marvel has started getting into the legacy game in a big way. Not many Marvel heroes had bona-fide superhero families until recently. Compare that with DC, which has been churning out legacies and spin-off characters since the 1950s, from Supergirl to Batgirl to Wonder Girl to Arsenal to Nightwing to Superboy and on and on and on.

    Wally West, as he is, can continue existing in the relatively limited capacity he currently is. But fans on this forum are constantly demanding an ongoing solo series and a more prominent role in the DC Universe. If that's going to happen, then there needs to be something significant to set him apart from Flash (Barry Allen) and Kid Flash. Otherwise, he can continue being the Kyle Rayner.
    Again, his personality is what sets him apart from Barry. That is really all he needs. Market him as the Flash of the Millenial generation, whereas Barry is Gen X.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    What's the pitch, the high concept? What demographic is it aimed at? How do you sell it to someone who doesn't have a deep knowledge of DC lore?

    "He's another version of the Flash who also has adventures and fights bad guys but he has red hair and his personality is a bit different" isn't going to cut it long-term.
    You do realize that Dick Grayson has survived as a successful spin-off character carrying his own title for decades with this same exact premise, right? If anything, Wally has a leg up since Dick actually has the same hair-color as Bruce.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 08-24-2019 at 04:25 PM.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Not publically. But I think the current treatment of Wally and the constant promotion of Barry Allen speaks for itself. Not to say that that's Barry's fault, but he certainly benefits from it.
    They're treating Barry Allen as The Flash, because that's who he is right now, and has been for the past decade. Nothing can threaten that, unless they actively decide otherwise.

    Wally West, in his current state, is an awkward character because he overlaps so much with The Flash (Barry Allen) and Kid Flash (Wallace West). But they're giving him a 6 issue mini-series, so they do want to utilize the character.

    It's somewhat telling that the series is titled "Flash Forward", with a unique logo, rather than "Wally West: The Flash" or "The Flash: Subtitle". There's hesitance to call his comic "The Flash". The same thing happened with his recent DC Multiverse action figure - the packaging just calls him "Wally West", not even the bio on the back of the box calls him "The Flash". Same deal with the Flash TV show Funko figures, where Barry's figure is "The Flash" and Jay's figure is "Jay Garrick". Whenever Terry McGinnis gets a new action figure it's labelled "Batman Beyond", rather than just "Batman".

    DC/Warner don't want to create brand confusion about who their characters are and the broad strokes of what they look like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    For one, just a few years ago, all of the human Green Lanterns at that time, were headlining their own series. So, its shown that its possible to have multiple stars in a franchise.
    They were central figures in team books. The equivalent of that isn't a Wally West solo series, it would be a series with Wally West and his kids and Impulse and Jesse Quick. But when a character is a space cop, that naturally lends itself well to a team series in a way that "runs fast" doesn't. Which isn't to say that you can't have a series about a bunch of people who all run fast, just that it doesn't lend itself to the concept as well as Green Lantern.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Actually, if anything, Marvel has historically been more skiddish about introducing spin-off characters and its only recently that Marvel has started getting into the legacy game in a big way. Not many Marvel heroes had bona-fide superhero families until recently. Compare that with DC, which has been churning out legacies and spin-off characters since the 1950s, from Supergirl to Batgirl to Wonder Girl to Arsenal to Nightwing to Superboy and on and on and on.
    Yes. I was talking about today, the present, the current era, just as you were when you mentioned Miles Morales, which is what I was responding to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Again, his personality is what sets him apart from Barry. That is really all he needs. Market him as the Flash of the Millenial generation, whereas Barry is Gen X.
    DC/Warner been portraying Barry Allen as a man in his mid-20s to mid-30s. It doesn't benefit them to start portraying him as a middle aged character for middle aged people, just so they can sell a spin-off character.

    If they had Wally West in college, that's more specific, that could work. That's a time period in a young person's life that DC currently doesn't have covered.

    But fans online are screaming for DC to bring back the kids that they used to hate, and the college angle would fall apart if Wally is a father of two 5-12 year old kids.

    It's another huge problem. Even if DC did want to present him as a younger, cooler, less responsible version of The Flash, how can they do that when he's a father of two?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    You do realize that Dick Grayson has survived as a successful spin-off character carrying his own title for decades with this same exact premise, right? If anything, Wally has a leg up since Dick actually has the same hair-color as Bruce.
    If Dick was named Batman and wore a Batman costume with a slightly different colour scheme, whilst Bruce Wayne was still the lead in "Batman" and "Detective Comics", then it wouldn't have lasted long-term. Ultimately DC doesn't want that kind of brand confusion. It benefits them more to have two characters, two brands.

    Wally West is one of my top 3 all-time favourite DC characters, but right now he's a Gordian Knot. But if you acknowledge any of the problems surrounding the character, people act like you have a grudge. Back when the original Flash Rebirth was in the works, Mark Waid said "I'm sure Geoff Johns'll do a nice job with Barry in his FLASH: REBIRTH story, but I can't imagine what purpose Wally now has in the DCU.", and I saw some message board posters lose their shit - saying Waid doesn't get Wally West, Waid doesn't care about Wally West.

    I don't think it's as simple as just giving Wally West, in his current form, an ongoing series. The problems won't fix themselves.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    They're treating Barry Allen as The Flash, because that's who he is right now, and has been for the past decade. Nothing can threaten that, unless they actively decide otherwise.
    Except Barry is completely capable of being the Flash while Wally is also a Flash or at least without them tearing down Wally and denigrating him the way they have for the past few years.

    Wally West, in his current state, is an awkward character because he overlaps so much with The Flash (Barry Allen) and Kid Flash (Wallace West). But they're giving him a 6 issue mini-series, so they do want to utilize the character.
    We have yet to see if their "utilizing" the character will actually be a good faith use or if it'll just be another opportunity for them to tear him down. Also, the "overlap" is a lazy excuse. Again, you can argue the same thing about Miles Morales or Guy Gardner, yet nobody is confused about those characters.

    It's somewhat telling that the series is titled "Flash Forward", with a unique logo, rather than "Wally West: The Flash" or "The Flash: Subtitle". There's hesitance to call his comic "The Flash". The same thing happened with his recent DC Multiverse action figure - the packaging just calls him "Wally West", not even the bio on the back of the box calls him "The Flash". Same deal with the Flash TV show Funko figures, where Barry's figure is "The Flash" and Jay's figure is "Jay Garrick". Whenever Terry McGinnis gets a new action figure it's labelled "Batman Beyond", rather than just "Batman".
    Except if you ask anyone who Jay Garrick's hero name is, they will tell you that its The Flash. If you ask anyone what Terry McGinnis calls himself in-universe, they will say he calls himself Batman, not Batman Beyond. And, you know what? Again, nobody gets confused by that. People aren't stupid. They can handle there being multiple iterations of a hero identity.

    I mean, do you think they're going to have Wally go by the name "Flash Forward" in-universe now? I don't. Because that's a horrible name.

    DC/Warner don't want to create brand confusion about who their characters are and the broad strokes of what they look like.
    If that was the only issue, they would have just given Wally a new identity the minute Barry came back. They would have done something to distinguish Wally instead of doing everything to denigrate or erase him. That's obviously not the only issue. The fact is that some people at DC don't like the fact that Wally exists because a) the fact that he is an adult in their eyes makes Barry seem "old" and b) he might actually prove to be more popular than Barry, which is a scenario that those in charge cannot accept. Although, it is incredibly misguided to shelve a popular character.

    They were central figures in team books. The equivalent of that isn't a Wally West solo series, it would be a series with Wally West and his kids and Impulse and Jesse Quick. But when a character is a space cop, that naturally lends itself well to a team series in a way that "runs fast" doesn't. Which isn't to say that you can't have a series about a bunch of people who all run fast, just that it doesn't lend itself to the concept as well as Green Lantern.
    Let's make no mistake, they were the de facto leads of those team books. The premise of those books was very much based around them. Also, again, the Speed Force as a concept lends itself to multiple speedsters. Don't we have Wallace and the Flash of China running around now? So, why is Wally a step too far??

    And a title with Wally and his kids and Impulse and Jesse Quick? Uh, yes please. They were important supporting characters for Wally when he was the Flash anyway. I would love to see them again.

    DC/Warner been portraying Barry Allen as a man in his mid-20s to mid-30s. It doesn't benefit them to start portraying him as a middle aged character for middle aged people, just so they can sell a spin-off character.
    Except that's exactly how old Barry was before Flashpoint. That's how old Superman and Batman should be now given that they are the fathers of teenage sons. Unless Superman was literally only 20 when he and Lois had Jon (a scenario I think anybody would find hard to believe since he and Lois were apparently established in their careers before Jon came along), he is at the very least late-30s to mid-40s. Given his general demeanor, I'd clock Clark at being around 40. Batman is probably the same age. That's not old by today's standards.

    So why is it off-limits to treat Barry as being the same age? He's supposed to be one of their peers, one of their generation of heroes.

    But fans online are screaming for DC to bring back the kids that they used to hate, and the college angle would fall apart if Wally is a father of two 5-12 year old kids.
    Nobody wants Wally in college. We shouldn't have to de-age Wally simply to make Barry seem cool or "hip."

    It's another huge problem. Even if DC did want to present him as a younger, cooler, less responsible version of The Flash, how can they do that when he's a father of two?
    Don't know if you know this, but there are millennial fathers and millennial mothers. Jai and Irey were actually aged up because of their link to the Speed Force. Chronologically, they were like 3 months old when they were looked biologically as if they were 5. And, that's another thing. It's not like Jai and Irey were portrayed as being the same age as Damian or even Jon when he popped up. They were younger.

    If Dick was named Batman and wore a Batman costume with a slightly different colour scheme, whilst Bruce Wayne was still the lead in "Batman" and "Detective Comics", then it wouldn't have lasted long-term. Ultimately DC doesn't want that kind of brand confusion. It benefits them more to have two characters, two brands.
    Except, again, that logic falls apart as soon as you look at Miles Morales. Miles is literally swinging around New York, calling himself Spider-Man, and simply wearing a differently-colored version of Peter's costume. And it works. He has his own title and is an important member of the Spider-Man family. And he's been around for only 7 years. Wally is a proven fan-favorite who has been around since the 50s. So, it's pretty ridiculous for DC to continue to ignore and/or denigrate him the way they have been. He has an established fan-base, lore, and supporting cast that's ready to come back at any time to support his own adventures. It's literally DC refusing to let the Flash franchise grow and be more than what it currently is, for what? So that Barry can look young??

    Wally West is one of my top 3 all-time favourite DC characters, but right now he's a Gordian Knot. But if you acknowledge any of the problems surrounding the character, people act like you have a grudge. Back when the original Flash Rebirth was in the works, Mark Waid said "I'm sure Geoff Johns'll do a nice job with Barry in his FLASH: REBIRTH story, but I can't imagine what purpose Wally now has in the DCU.", and I saw some message board posters lose their shit - saying Waid doesn't get Wally West, Waid doesn't care about Wally West.

    I don't think it's as simple as just giving Wally West, in his current form, an ongoing series. The problems won't fix themselves.
    Yeah, well Waid was wrong. You know its possible for writers to be wrong, right? The purpose Wally serves is to be the fan-favorite character people love. Again, he has his own niche within the Flash franchise. He had his own villains, who were personal to him and not Barry, like Hunter Zolomon/Zoom and Frances Kane/Magenta. He had his own city, his own supporting cast, and has own distinct personality. That's pretty much all you need for a successful spin-off character.

    But here's really the thing. They haven't tried to give Wally his own space to see if he'd be a successful spin off character. As soon as Barry came back, they shelved him in favor of Barry and have been trying to bury him ever since. And, as I've pointed out, they have their own misguided reasons for doing that. However, they will never know just how much potential Wally has unless they actually give a good faith effort into establishing him in a world with Barry in it.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 08-25-2019 at 10:21 AM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Also, the "overlap" is a lazy excuse. Again, you can argue the same thing about Miles Morales or Guy Gardner, yet nobody is confused about those characters.
    Guy Gardner doesn't have his own series. Marvel do things differently to DC. Even then, there was the cartoon where Miles was "Kid Arachnid". The super-powered Gwen Stacy is now "Ghost-Spider" instead of Spider-Woman, Amadeus Cho is now "Brawn" instead of "Hulk".

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Except if you ask anyone who Jay Garrick's hero name is, they will tell you that its The Flash. If you ask anyone what Terry McGinnis calls himself in-universe, they will say he calls himself Batman, not Batman Beyond. And, you know what? Again, nobody gets confused by that. People aren't stupid. They can handle there being multiple iterations of a hero identity.
    Don't shoot the messenger. DC/Warner are the ones who make those branding decisions - they clearly think it's important that a Terry McGinnis figure is called "Batman Beyond" and that a Wally West figure packaging doesn't refer to him as "The Flash".

    In a discussion about how DC can/will/should/does handle multiple characters with the same name, it helps to look at how DC currently handles multiple characters with the same name.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Let's make no mistake, they were the de facto leads of those team books. The premise of those books was very much based around them. Also, again, the Speed Force as a concept lends itself to multiple speedsters.
    I'm talking story format. If you have a character who is a cop, that immediately lends itself to an ensemble cast format.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Don't we have Wallace and the Flash of China running around now? So, why is Wally a step too far??
    They don't have their own series either. If Wallace did get his own series, it would be called Kid Flash. As I've said, multiple times, Wally West can carry on as he is and still exist in the DC Universe. But to have a shot at becoming as relevant as Nightwing, with his own ongoing series, then he needs something more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    And a title with Wally and his kids and Impulse and Jesse Quick? Uh, yes please. They were important supporting characters for Wally when he was the Flash anyway. I would love to see them again.
    If the fans want Wally as the lead in a team book, then great. The last two times he was the lead in a team book (The Flash run with his kids, Titans Rebirth) a vocal segment of the online fandom got mad about the lack of solo adventures. But now everyone suddenly wants the kids around, so who knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Except that's exactly how old Barry was before Flashpoint. That's how old Superman and Batman should be now given that they are the fathers of teenage sons. Unless Superman was literally only 20 when he and Lois had Jon (a scenario I think anybody would find hard to believe since he and Lois were apparently established in their careers before Jon came along), he is at the very least late-30s to mid-40s. Given his general demeanor, I'd clock Clark at being around 40. Batman is probably the same age. That's not old by today's standards.

    So why is it off-limits to treat Barry as being the same age? He's supposed to be one of their peers, one of their generation of heroes.
    We can all try and do the maths for how old each hero would have to be to make sense in whatever DC decides its continuity is this week. But DC certainly isn't treating Barry Allen like a 40 year old, especially in other media, and they certainly aren't going to start writing/marketing The Flash as Gen X-er.

    If we are going to look at the maths - Wallace West was a toddler at the end of Flash Year One. Wallace is currently 14 years old (established in Deathstroke). So approximately 12 years have past since Barry became The Flash. In previous continuity, Barry became The Flash at age 24. If this still holds true, then Barry is approximately 36 years old, born approximately 1983, making him a Millenial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Don't know if you know this, but there are millennial fathers and millennial mothers.
    Why do you keep responding to everything with this tone? It's not conductive to discussion. We're talking about comic book characters, not life and death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Jai and Irey were actually aged up because of their link to the Speed Force. Chronologically, they were like 3 months old when they were looked biologically as if they were 5. And, that's another thing. It's not like Jai and Irey were portrayed as being the same age as Damian or even Jon when he popped up. They were younger.
    They were physically/mentally around 8-10 in Waid's run, then suddenly younger in Flash Rebirth. Wally, in DC Universe Rebirth, says that he's younger than he once was too.

    If the premise is "the cooler younger Flash", then the kids do get in the way of that premise. If the premise is "young dad", then the framework needs to make sense. Wally can't be a man in his early 20s with a 10 year old daughter. They need to figure out how old the kids are supposed to be, how Linda fits into the equation and the continuity, what story they're presenting to their friends and family and neighbours and the schools (how does Linda explain these kids to her parents??).

    Do the kids have powers? Which ones? Does Jai still get a unique power (strength), but Irey has one of Flash's powers (vibration)? Is it good balance to have her powers overlap with Wally's? Do they play super-hero? To what extent? Do they have code names?

    There's a lot that needs to be straightened out first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Yeah, well Waid was wrong.
    So far, he's been proven right. Either way, it was wrong of fans to say things like "Waid doesn't get Wally", "Waid doesn't care about Wally".

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    The purpose Wally serves is to be the fan-favorite character people love.
    To be sustainable long-term, he needs to be an accessible, uniquely identifiable character with unique hook. Relying on the audience who read Flash comics 10-30 years ago isn't enough. There needs to be something that can be sold to someone walking into a comic store for the first time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    He had his own city
    He had Jay Garrick's city, next door to Barry Allen's city.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Guy Gardner doesn't have his own series. Marvel do things differently to DC. Even then, there was the cartoon where Miles was "Kid Arachnid". The super-powered Gwen Stacy is now "Ghost-Spider" instead of Spider-Woman, Amadeus Cho is now "Brawn" instead of "Hulk".
    Really? Because Marvel and DC have been pretty similar in the way they market their characters for, well, decades now. The idea that what works for one just inherently isn't gonna work for the other just seems like an excuse. Miles Morales isn't called Kid Arachnid in the comics. He's called Spider-Man. And it works just fine and nobody is confused.

    However, like I've already said, they could have given Wally his own identity years ago. They could have done it as soon as Barry came back. It's telling that they didn't. It's demonstrative of the fact that TPTB just didn't want him around at all.

    Don't shoot the messenger. DC/Warner are the ones who make those branding decisions - they clearly think it's important that a Terry McGinnis figure is called "Batman Beyond" and that a Wally West figure packaging doesn't refer to him as "The Flash".

    In a discussion about how DC can/will/should/does handle multiple characters with the same name, it helps to look at how DC currently handles multiple characters with the same name.
    I'm not shooting the messenger. I'm pointing out a flaw in the messenger's argument. Again, I don't care what appears on the packaging for some action figure. That's actually not that demonstrative in this context because there are multiple action figures marketed even for just different versions of the same exact character, let alone different characters who use the same codename.

    What I care about is what these characters are called in the comics universe. Terry McGuiness is called Batman. Miles Morales is called Spider-Man. And Jay Garrick and Wally West are both called "the Flash." Even Barry calls Wally a "Flash" in the comics.

    I'm talking story format. If you have a character who is a cop, that immediately lends itself to an ensemble cast format.
    And if you have this ethereal force that grants speed powers, that immediately leads to more than one speedster.

    They don't have their own series either. If Wallace did get his own series, it would be called Kid Flash. As I've said, multiple times, Wally West can carry on as he is and still exist in the DC Universe. But to have a shot at becoming as relevant as Nightwing, with his own ongoing series, then he needs something more.
    I disagree. I think all you'd have to do is put Wally West: The Flash on the cover, just like how Miles's title is literally just called Miles Morales: Spider-Man.

    But, let's say that what you're saying is true. That Wally does need a new codename. Don't you think it's telling that they have had 10 years to do this and have just refused to do so? Don't you think it means something that, just when the character does return, they launch an entire event that ends with him basically being made the villain?

    They had literally a decade to carve out a niche for Wally and they didn't. Why? They don't want to, regardless of the fact that a lot of what made the Flash popular in the first place debuted under Wally's tenure as the Flash.


    We can all try and do the maths for how old each hero would have to be to make sense in whatever DC decides its continuity is this week. But DC certainly isn't treating Barry Allen like a 40 year old, especially in other media, and they certainly aren't going to start writing/marketing The Flash as Gen X-er.

    If we are going to look at the maths - Wallace West was a toddler at the end of Flash Year One. Wallace is currently 14 years old (established in Deathstroke). So approximately 12 years have past since Barry became The Flash. In previous continuity, Barry became The Flash at age 24. If this still holds true, then Barry is approximately 36 years old, born approximately 1983, making him a Millenial.
    Yes, the point is that that's not good. The whole point of this discussion is that the approach they're taking with Barry and the Flash franchise as a whole is misguided. Barry shouldn't be a Millennial. Barry is supposed to be the same generation as Clark and Bruce. And, using analogues outside of the DC Universe, Barry should be around the same age as some of the Silver Age heroes of the Marvel U, like Reed Richards and Hank Pym. So, if they've already reached a certain age and are shown to be grown and with children, then Barry should be shown as being as mature as they are. He should be late thirties, early forties as well. And if he's currently 36, what difference does just four more years make?

    The ideal age distribution should look like this:

    Jay - 65-85
    Barry - 39-45
    Wally - 26-30

    If the premise is "the cooler younger Flash", then the kids do get in the way of that premise. If the premise is "young dad", then the framework needs to make sense. Wally can't be a man in his early 20s with a 10 year old daughter. They need to figure out how old the kids are supposed to be, how Linda fits into the equation and the continuity, what story they're presenting to their friends and family and neighbours and the schools (how does Linda explain these kids to her parents??).
    He can be if his three-month-old was aged up due to the powers of the Speed Force. I know a lot of people in their mid-twenties with toddler children. Plus, this is comics. Miraculously aged-up children is not the craziest thing to come out of this medium.

    Do the kids have powers? Which ones? Does Jai still get a unique power (strength), but Irey has one of Flash's powers (vibration)? Is it good balance to have her powers overlap with Wally's? Do they play super-hero? To what extent? Do they have code names?

    There's a lot that needs to be straightened out first.
    All of this doesn't really have much to do with Wally as a character himself. However, you know where they could explore this and straighten all of it out? In a Wally West solo series. All of these issues are actually perfect fodder for said series. Or, they could just reset everything to how it was for Wally pre-Flashpoint and restore the status quo as it was then. To my recollection, Irey was granted full Flash powers and Jai was powerless. I may be wrong on that, though.

    So far, he's been proven right. Either way, it was wrong of fans to say things like "Waid doesn't get Wally", "Waid doesn't care about Wally".
    He's only been proven right by DC's refusal to give Wally a chance to be on his own, not because of the inherent truth of his words.

    To be sustainable long-term, he needs to be an accessible, uniquely identifiable character with unique hook. Relying on the audience who read Flash comics 10-30 years ago isn't enough. There needs to be something that can be sold to someone walking into a comic store for the first time.
    I mean, can you tell me the central hook of Supergirl or Nightwing's solo titles aside from "legacy character is all grown up and has their own adventures"? It just seems that this is a standard that you're only applying to Wally and nobody else, especially when DC and Marvel apparently give solo series to everything. I mean, Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane have solo series right now. And as good as they are, can you tell me any reason why those stories couldn't just be subplots in Superman or Action??

    They already gave Wally a new costume that's different enough from the classic Flash outfit that its clearly him. And again, he already has his own built-in fanbase and, yes, fans of the Flash in general are likely willing to buy a Wally West solo series. If the only thing standing in Wally's way is that he needs a new codename then they'd give him a new codename, but its telling that they haven't for over 10 years. Why? Its because they don't want to invest too much in the character because they're afraid of shifting any focus whatsoever off of Barry. And its not a legitimate fear.

    He had Jay Garrick's city, next door to Barry Allen's city.
    Which is why Jay Garrick was his mentor. But Wally was very much the main protector of Keystone, with Jay stepping aside to pass on the mantle.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 08-25-2019 at 01:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Yes, the point is that that's a dumb move. The whole point of this discussion is that the approach they're taking with Barry and the Flash franchise as a whole is misguided. Barry shouldn't be a Millennial. Barry is supposed to be the same generation as Clark and Bruce. And, using analogues outside of the DC Universe, Barry should be around the same age as some of the Silver Age heroes of the Marvel U, like Reed Richards and Hank Pym. So, if they've already reached a certain age and are shown to be grown and with children, then Barry should be shown as being as mature as they are. He should be late thirties, early forties as well. And if he's currently 36, what difference does just four more years make?

    The ideal age distribution should look like this:

    Jay - 65-85
    Barry - 39-42
    Wally - 26-30
    The problem is Barry was only in late '20s at the time of COIE, so that complicates things.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    The problem is Barry was only in late '20s at the time of COIE, so that complicates things.
    Would it have been impossible for him to have aged in the Speed Force? Obviously many years passed between COIE and the immediate Pre-Flashpoint status quo. Barry doesn't need to remain in his 20s or even 30s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Would it have been impossible for him to have aged in the Speed Force? Obviously many years passed between COIE and the immediate Pre-Flashpoint status quo. Barry doesn't need to remain in his 20s or even 30s.
    True, but it's a moot point now. Besides, Barry wouldn't have come back in the first place if he had aged that much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Really? Because Marvel and DC have been pretty similar in the way they market their characters for, well, decades now. The idea that what works for one just inherently isn't gonna work for the other just seems like an excuse. Miles Morales isn't called Kid Arachnid in the comics. He's called Spider-Man. And it works just fine and nobody is confused.
    Maybe Miles Morales will continue to be called Spider-Man forever. Who knows. They certainly thought it would be confusing/poor branding to continue calling Gwen Stacy "Spider-Woman" and Amadeus Cho "Hulk".

    Part of the reason Miles Morales was created was to add some ethnic and cultural diversity to their comics line and cast of characters, to appeal to broader demographics. A teenage rookie hero also makes a good contrast to the adult, more experienced Peter Parker, harkening back to the roots of the series.

    With Barry Allen and Wally West, you have two young straight white American male characters.

    From a publishing and brand management perspective, there would need to be a compelling reason to have two "The Flash" comics, starring two similar characters, both called "The Flash".

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    However, like I've already said, they could have given Wally his own identity years ago. They could have done it as soon as Barry came back. It's telling that they didn't. It's demonstrative of the fact that TPTB just didn't want him around at all.
    Well yeah. They made that clear.

    I do want him around, so I think giving him a unique name and costume and direction would be beneficial.

    DC is keeping him around as throwback character, part of the extended cast, an alternate version of a character they already have.

    Like, I get that people want to just go back to how things were before. But that's not going to happen. Before, Wally West was THE FLASH. Now Barry Allen is THE FLASH and Wally West is "a Flash". They can't just launch a new Wally West series that's just Flash doing Flash stuff - they already have that comic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I'm not shooting the messenger. I'm pointing out a flaw in the messenger's argument. Again, I don't care what appears on the packaging for some action figure. That's actually not that demonstrative in this context because there are multiple action figures marketed even for just different versions of the same exact character, let alone different characters who use the same codename.

    What I care about is what these characters are called in the comics universe. Terry McGuiness is called Batman. Miles Morales is called Spider-Man. And Jay Garrick and Wally West are both called "the Flash." Even Barry calls Wally a "Flash" in the comics.
    They have a character called "The Flash" who they don't want to market as "The Flash" because they have a more recognizable character called "The Flash". What is gained from continuing to call that character "The Flash"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    And if you have this ethereal force that grants speed powers, that immediately leads to more than one speedster.
    I was talking story format. Cops work with other cops, there's structure, hierarchy. Green Lanterns = Space Cops is easy to explain. What kind of story do you tell with multiple Green Lanterns? A cop story, in space, because they are space cops.

    The kind of story you tell about multiple Flashes, or multiple Plastic Mans, or multiple Catwomans, or multiple Big Bardas, isn't as clearly defined.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Yes, the point is that that's not good. The whole point of this discussion is that the approach they're taking with Barry and the Flash franchise as a whole is misguided. Barry shouldn't be a Millennial. Barry is supposed to be the same generation as Clark and Bruce. And, using analogues outside of the DC Universe, Barry should be around the same age as some of the Silver Age heroes of the Marvel U, like Reed Richards and Hank Pym. So, if they've already reached a certain age and are shown to be grown and with children, then Barry should be shown as being as mature as they are. He should be late thirties, early forties as well. And if he's currently 36, what difference does just four more years make?

    The ideal age distribution should look like this:

    Jay - 65-85
    Barry - 39-45
    Wally - 26-30
    DC has decided that Barry Allen is The Flash, and they don't want The Flash to be portrayed as a middle aged man. They want him to be relatively young and relatable to a young audience. What would they gain from making him middle aged, and actively promoting him as such?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    He can be if his three-month-old was aged up due to the powers of the Speed Force. I know a lot of people in their mid-twenties with toddler children. Plus, this is comics. Miraculously aged-up children is not the craziest thing to come out of this medium.
    If a story is being sold as a "young dad" story, then it's better if it's relatable. Mid-20s with twin toddlers? Fine. Early 20s with a 10 year old? Dumb, especially if Wally has a civilian life.


    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I mean, can you tell me the central hook of Supergirl or Nightwing's solo titles aside from "legacy character is all grown up and has their own adventures"?
    Supergirl was created to appeal to girl readers, broadening the Superman brand by appealing to a different demographic.

    Nightwing is Nightwing, not a second character called Batman, wearing a variation on Batman's costume.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I mean, Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane have solo series right now. And as good as they are, can you tell me any reason why those stories couldn't just be subplots in Superman or Action??
    Jimmy Olsen isn't a second character called Superman, nor is Lois Lane. They're well known, well defined characters, with well defined roles in the Superman mythos.

    Wally West's original role was Flash's biggest fan who became his young protégé, Kid Flash. His second role was the taking his mentor's place as The Flash, after his untimely death.

    Now that Barry Allen is back, he needs a new role if he's going to be relevant. Maintaining the status quo keeps him a fringe character, with no purpose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Jimmy Olsen isn't a second character called Superman, nor is Lois Lane. They're well known, well defined characters, with well defined roles in the Superman mythos.

    Wally West's original role was Flash's biggest fan who became his young protégé, Kid Flash. His second role was the taking his mentor's place as The Flash, after his untimely death.

    Now that Barry Allen is back, he needs a new role if he's going to be relevant. Maintaining the status quo keeps him a fringe character, with no purpose.
    It's really a bad situation for Wally at this point. I'm not really hopeful for a viable solution regardless of who is in charge, either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Maybe Miles Morales will continue to be called Spider-Man forever. Who knows. They certainly thought it would be confusing/poor branding to continue calling Gwen Stacy "Spider-Woman" and Amadeus Cho "Hulk".
    Do you know how much flack Marvel would get if they tried to take being Spider-Man away from Miles in the comics? Especially after Into the Spider-Verse?

    Not to say Marvel doesn't seem to know what to do with Miles whenever they stick him into something where Peter is the lead character, where he more often then not gets either reduced to a sidekick or doesn't even get a proper codename.

    The best utilization of him in that aspect was the PS4 game and they basically wrote him like Wally West.
    Part of the reason Miles Morales was created was to add some ethnic and cultural diversity to their comics line and cast of characters, to appeal to broader demographics. A teenage rookie hero also makes a good contrast to the adult, more experienced Peter Parker, harkening back to the roots of the series.

    With Barry Allen and Wally West, you have two young straight white American male characters.


    From a publishing and brand management perspective, there would need to be a compelling reason to have two "The Flash" comics, starring two similar characters, both called "The Flash".
    I think that's a very reductive way of looking at both Barry and Wally. Wally's an iconic Flash and carried the title long after Barry died, and so much elements of the mythos were introduced under his tenure in equal status to what Barry brought to the table.

    Just from a character standpoint I think there is a lot there if DC would actually let a writer have some free reign with him.
    DC is keeping him around as throwback character, part of the extended cast, an alternate version of a character they already have.
    It feels like DC is keeping him around because they know fans love Wally, but you can tell from their treatment of him that DC Editorial wishes they could do away with him.
    Like, I get that people want to just go back to how things were before. But that's not going to happen. Before, Wally West was THE FLASH. Now Barry Allen is THE FLASH and Wally West is "a Flash". They can't just launch a new Wally West series that's just Flash doing Flash stuff - they already have that comic.
    Family titles can seem derivative on the surface until a writer actually gets an opportunity to dive into what distinguishes this character from the other one using the same codename.

    The problem is DC won't even give Wally that chance and screw him over on-top of it.
    They have a character called "The Flash" who they don't want to market as "The Flash" because they have a more recognizable character called "The Flash". What is gained from continuing to call that character "The Flash"?
    Granted, said recognizable character called "The Flash" has taken many traits, characters, or elements that were associated with "The Flash" they don't want to market.

    So it really begs the question how "recognizable" The Flash is at this point beyond his costume.
    I was talking story format. Cops work with other cops, there's structure, hierarchy. Green Lanterns = Space Cops is easy to explain. What kind of story do you tell with multiple Green Lanterns? A cop story, in space, because they are space cops.
    Or Hal n' Pals...which really wasn't a cop story .
    The kind of story you tell about multiple Flashes, or multiple Plastic Mans, or multiple Catwomans, or multiple Big Bardas, isn't as clearly defined.
    Speed Force stories. Rogues stories. Flash Family stories.
    DC has decided that Barry Allen is The Flash, and they don't want The Flash to be portrayed as a middle aged man. They want him to be relatively young and relatable to a young audience. What would they gain from making him middle aged, and actively promoting him as such?
    Barry doesn't really feel that young and relatable. At least with how he's currently depicted in the comics.
    Nightwing is Nightwing, not a second character called Batman, wearing a variation on Batman's costume.
    Story-wise I don't think he's much different from how you'd approach a Wally book.
    Jimmy Olsen isn't a second character called Superman, nor is Lois Lane. They're well known, well defined characters, with well defined roles in the Superman mythos.

    Wally West's original role was Flash's biggest fan who became his young protégé, Kid Flash. His second role was the taking his mentor's place as The Flash, after his untimely death.

    Now that Barry Allen is back, he needs a new role if he's going to be relevant. Maintaining the status quo keeps him a fringe character, with no purpose.
    I don't think anyone is advocating for maintaining the status quo because Wally fans hate the current status quo. I don't think DC editorial cares or values the character enough to want to do anything significant with him as a prominent character if it risks Barry's status as the one and only Flash, hence these character derailing stories.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Darknight Detective View Post
    It's really a bad situation for Wally at this point. I'm not really hopeful for a viable solution regardless of who is in charge, either.
    I think an editorial regime change would be a good start if nothing else, assuming they don't have the same values or priorities that has put Wally on the backburner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Maybe Miles Morales will continue to be called Spider-Man forever. Who knows. They certainly thought it would be confusing/poor branding to continue calling Gwen Stacy "Spider-Woman" and Amadeus Cho "Hulk".
    They didn't change Gwen's persona because it was too close to Spider-Man. They changed it because "Spider-Gwen" was untenable. And, again, Miles is still being called Spider-Man.

    Part of the reason Miles Morales was created was to add some ethnic and cultural diversity to their comics line and cast of characters, to appeal to broader demographics. A teenage rookie hero also makes a good contrast to the adult, more experienced Peter Parker, harkening back to the roots of the series.

    With Barry Allen and Wally West, you have two young straight white American male characters.
    That doesn't make Wally and Barry the same person. Again, they're pretty different individuals, despite DC's attempts to graft aspects of Wally's personality onto Barry.

    From a publishing and brand management perspective, there would need to be a compelling reason to have two "The Flash" comics, starring two similar characters, both called "The Flash".
    Again, they're not similar characters. And the compelling reason is because Wally is a proven fan favorite who people want to see more of. Using your logic, we would never get to see a Wally West solo series because their supposed "similarities" would still be there even if Wally got a name change.

    Do you think that the audience is going to get confused about who is who? Fans are not idiots. They know who Wally West is as opposed to Barry Allen, especially since Wally got a makeover at the very beginning of Rebirth. The more you try to explain, the more this just comes off as an excuse.

    Well yeah. They made that clear.

    I do want him around, so I think giving him a unique name and costume and direction would be beneficial.

    DC is keeping him around as throwback character, part of the extended cast, an alternate version of a character they already have.
    Well, again, he already has a unique costume. Has had it for a bit now. But the way that DC's been handling him just shows that they want to bury him and subordinate him. That's not good for the character or for the Flash franchise.

    Like, I get that people want to just go back to how things were before. But that's not going to happen. Before, Wally West was THE FLASH. Now Barry Allen is THE FLASH and Wally West is "a Flash". They can't just launch a new Wally West series that's just Flash doing Flash stuff - they already have that comic.
    Again, you mean how Marvel has two Spider-Man comics with two characters named Spider-Man who go around doing Spider-Man stuff???

    They have a character called "The Flash" who they don't want to market as "The Flash" because they have a more recognizable character called "The Flash". What is gained from continuing to call that character "The Flash"?
    Its actually debatable as to which one is the more recognizable Flash. People know who Wally is, if only because of the DCAU and Young Justice. You're acting as if we're dealing with some unknown character here.

    I was talking story format. Cops work with other cops, there's structure, hierarchy. Green Lanterns = Space Cops is easy to explain. What kind of story do you tell with multiple Green Lanterns? A cop story, in space, because they are space cops.
    Well, again, the speedsters are a family. What type of story do you tell with characters who all got their power from the same mysterious energy? You tell team-up stories. Its not any more ridiculous than something like the Bat-family or even Spider-Verse.

    The kind of story you tell about multiple Flashes, or multiple Plastic Mans, or multiple Catwomans, or multiple Big Bardas, isn't as clearly defined.
    Well, for one, Big Barda is just Barda's name. Secondly, what stories can you tell with multiple Flashes? Are you sure you've read Mark Waid's Flash???

    DC has decided that Barry Allen is The Flash, and they don't want The Flash to be portrayed as a middle aged man. They want him to be relatively young and relatable to a young audience. What would they gain from making him middle aged, and actively promoting him as such?
    For the record, early 40s is not middle-aged. Colloquially, "middle-aged" is someone who is between their late 40s and mid 60s. Making Barry 40 would not be making him middle-aged. Though, referring to "middle-aged" as if its a negative is a little tone-deaf.

    If a story is being sold as a "young dad" story, then it's better if it's relatable. Mid-20s with twin toddlers? Fine. Early 20s with a 10 year old? Dumb, especially if Wally has a civilian life.
    Again, why not??? This is comics. Children being aged up rapidly is not really a new thing. Plus, they could always say they adopted. However, they could also just make Wally's identity public again like it was during Waid's run and have Wally be honest about their family life. That was actually a fun aspect that they had going for them.

    Supergirl was created to appeal to girl readers, broadening the Superman brand by appealing to a different demographic.

    Nightwing is Nightwing, not a second character called Batman, wearing a variation on Batman's costume.
    Nightwing and Supergirl and Superboy for that matter are still just different "versions" of their mentors having their own adventures akin to their predecessors. I mean, by your logic, their existence is just largely superfluous and unneeded when we have the originals in Clark and Bruce. That is, unless readers look for more in a comic than the power-set and appearance.

    However, again, Wally now does have a markedly different look from Barry, so there's little to no chance really of anyone confusing him with Barry. Again, fans are not stupid.

    Jimmy Olsen isn't a second character called Superman, nor is Lois Lane. They're well known, well defined characters, with well defined roles in the Superman mythos.
    The point is that apparently Jimmy Olsen and Lois Lane not even having powers is not an impediment to them being able to sell comics, yet Wally West simply being called the Flash in-universe is??? If the name is such a concern, why not just literally call the title Wally West: The Flash. Again, that is exactly Marvel does with Miles. It's not difficult for fans to sort out. Heck, the two titles we were just discussing just had the characters' names on them.

    Wally West's original role was Flash's biggest fan who became his young protégé, Kid Flash. His second role was the taking his mentor's place as The Flash, after his untimely death.

    Now that Barry Allen is back, he needs a new role if he's going to be relevant. Maintaining the status quo keeps him a fringe character, with no purpose.
    How about just the role of being the Dick Grayson to Barry's Bruce Wayne?? Being the big brother of the Flash family to Bart and Wallace?

    But, again, this is just seeming more and more like an excuse. It's not hard to establish a role for Wally in the current DCU. Its not even hard to get around the whole "brand confusion" issue because:

    1) most comic readers know who Wally West is anyway;
    2) Wally is sporting a new look that does not even look like Barry's costume; and
    3) they could just literally have his name as part of the title to avoid any confusion, which wouldn't be the first time DC or Marvel did so

    Again, fans are not idiots. They would be able to tell who's who. Pretending as if they couldn't is just disingenuous.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 08-26-2019 at 12:15 PM.

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