Page 2 of 7 FirstFirst 123456 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 100
  1. #16
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    1,358

    Default

    I feel like if Didio had his way he would say "Fine you want Dick Grayson to be prominent, he will be Robin, you want Roy Harper revert him to Speedy. You want Wally? Kid Flash". Since...y'know they were around in the Silver Age, the era he likes. Better than murderer Wally, dead Roy amnesia Dick or "Notwing"

  2. #17
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    11,844

    Default

    Even with opportunities where it makes sense to use Dick as Robin again, they go with Tim. Like with the Walmart Titans series.

  3. #18
    Incredible Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Posts
    684

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Even with opportunities where it makes sense to use Dick as Robin again, they go with Tim. Like with the Walmart Titans series.
    100% with you on that one. Even I felt Tim should've been used here. I could've considered it as a predecessor to Titans Hunt.

    Even if Damian was used here it would've made sense.

    To add on: I believe within 10-15 years(maybe sooner). We'll end up getting another reboot. With a more compacter universe, similar to the current animation movie universe.
    Last edited by Darkcrusade25; 08-19-2019 at 10:50 PM.

  4. #19
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    6,935

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    Sure, but it's not really bias - it's a choice, a decision. It's the job to make the best decisions - according to one's own judgment, knowing some % of your audience will disapprove.
    Dude. Its obvious that TPTB chose Barry because they were just biased in his favor. That's the only reason. There's really no logical reason why they had to go with only one Flash, let alone why that Flash had to be Barry.

    I mean, a smart businessman would look at how the Batfamily is successful, with Dick Grayson not only being a prominent supporting character but also carrying his own title as Nightwing for literally decades and try to apply that same strategy to Wally. They might also look at the fact well Wally West was the protagonist at the time during which the Flash comics reached their height in terms of both quality and popularity and think that they shouldn't fix what isn't broken.

    There really was no reason to bring Barry back aside from bias. And I'm saying this as someone who actually really likes Barry Allen.

    Not at all. They brought Barry back as a lead-in to a linewide reboot. So - new Barry, new Wally, Jay on Earth 2.
    A line-wide reboot aimed at making Barry and the rest of the Silver Age generation the undisputed leaders of the pack. That was pretty much the only reason for the New 52. And it failed.

    It's Bart that was one supporting character too many at that point, going back to what I said earlier. The roles are the Flash, the old Flash and the kid Flash. That's what they had in the 60s on up to the New 52. For most of those 50 years, anyway.
    Uh, not really. Throughout the 90s, between Wally, Jay, Max Mercury, Johnny Quick, Jesse Quick, and Bart Allen, they had at least six different speedsters running around at the same time. And that was when the Flash was at its height as a franchise. I really don't see why it was an issue for Flash when Batman had like 10 different protoges/associates as part of his family.

    For a little while, absolutely.

    Long term? Using Wally West as an example, it's been misuse after misuse since 2006. Instead of begging DC to change it's ways, we should recognize the scenario - Wally's a football, DC is Lucy, and Wally fans are Charlie Brown. How long do we play Lucy's victim?
    Or fans can simply continue to voice their displeasure until they're heard.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 08-20-2019 at 09:45 AM.

  5. #20
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    1,358

    Default

    What I would love to see, and this is what's happening with Wally in Flash Forward, is seeing Garth and Roy getting a mini series (once Roy has been revived). Pre Flashpoint it seemed like what DC was doing was separating the sidekicks from their mentors. Roy appeared sporadically in GA and was with Titans, Wally separated from Barry, and Garth for the most part being separated from Aquaman. Reading Aquaman now and Arthur is separated from Atlantis and the Aqualads it seems. I'd love to see people like Emiko and Roy appearing more frequently in GA as well as team books like Titans or a mini/maxi series. Same with Garth and Wally. Throw Wallace in there too. So basically a combination of seeing the sidekicks with their mentors on occasion and on their own adventures. If it works for Robin, why not these guys?

  6. #21
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    36,496

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Dude. Its obvious that TPTB chose Barry because they were just biased in his favor. That's the only reason. There's really no logical reason why they had to go with only one Flash, let alone why that Flash had to be Barry.

    I mean, a smart businessman would look at how the Batfamily is successful, with Dick Grayson not only being a prominent supporting character but also carrying his own title as Nightwing for literally decades and try to apply that same strategy to Wally. They might also look at the fact well Wally West was the protagonist at the time during which the Flash comics reached their height in terms of both quality and popularity and think that they shouldn't fix what isn't broken.

    There really was no reason to bring Barry back aside from bias. And I'm saying this as someone who actually really likes Barry Allen.



    A line-wide reboot aimed at making Barry and the rest of the Silver Age generation the undisputed leaders of the pack. That was pretty much the only reason for the New 52. And it failed.



    Uh, not really. Throughout the 90s, between Wally, Jay, Max Mercury, Johnny Quick, Jesse Quick, and Bart Allen, they had at least six different speedsters running around at the same time. And that was when the Flash was at its height as a franchise. I really don't see why it was an issue for Flash when Batman had like 10 different protoges/associates as part of his family.
    Well, Bart's back, and Barry and Wally make three... but they added several new speedsters too (the Chinese Flash Avery Ho, Godspeed, Kid Flash Wallace), so there's more than half a dozen again even though Jay and several others are still missing.
    Appreciation Thread Indexes
    Marvel | Spider-Man | X-Men | NEW!! DC Comics | Batman | Superman | Wonder Woman

  7. #22
    Fantastic Member Dr. Ellingham's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Port Wenn
    Posts
    414

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Dude. Its obvious that TPTB chose Barry because they were just biased in his favor.
    Nah, you're actually giving DC far too much credit for having a plan:

    1. When Green Lantern Rebirth was a huge success, a fan at a convention asked Didio when they'd bring back Barry Allen. He literally said, "Not on my watch."

    He said Flash was a generational character, and that they would press on. He also gave hints of a new Flash coming due to the forthcoming Crisis.

    2. Ethan Van Sciver has said several times that Didio was against bringing back Barry Allen, and he was surprised to get a call from Geoff Johns saying basically - they're finally going to let us do it. You in?

    3. None other than Mark Waid said that he and Johns argued replacing Wally with Bart wouldn't work. Didio didn't listen. And eventually he called Waid to tell him it didn't work, and they'd be killing him off.

    These are not the actions of a creative director with emotional attachments to fictional characters, or a bias, or even a resolve to stick to a strategy beyond the next event. These are simply properties to manage step to step, changing directions when they feel it's necessary.

    They tried to switch things up with IC, it didn't work, so they pivoted to something else. Bringing back Barry was just the last option they had at that point to generate market interest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I mean, a smart businessman would look at how the Batfamily is successful, with Dick Grayson not only being a prominent supporting character but also carrying his own title as Nightwing for literally decades and try to apply that same strategy to Wally.
    It might sell comics, absolutely. But from an IP perspective is it a good strategy to have essentially two primary characters who inhabit the same role the same exact way? I think the answer is no. It's why Barry was never brought back post-Crisis, and why Wally went away. The Flash is a character, not two slightly distinct iterations of a character.

  8. #23
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    6,935

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    They tried to switch things up with IC, it didn't work, so they pivoted to something else. Bringing back Barry was just the last option they had at that point to generate market interest.
    That does not account for the continued and unrelenting assassination and/or erasure of Wally West from the DC Universe that's occurred under the current editorial. Even if they didn't have that reason for bringing back Barry in the first place doesn't mean that they haven't since thrown their weight behind him as being the one and only Flash, even at the expense of others.

    It might sell comics, absolutely. But from an IP perspective is it a good strategy to have essentially two primary characters who inhabit the same role the same exact way? I think the answer is no. It's why Barry was never brought back post-Crisis, and why Wally went away. The Flash is a character, not two slightly distinct iterations of a character.
    Well, Barry was brought back Post-Crisis. Also, its completely doable to have more than one character with the same identity. Look at the Green Lantern Corps for probably the most famous example. When Hal came back, Kyle, John, and Guy didn't just disappear. And hell, there's even currently two Spider-Men running around in the Marvel Universe and both have their own ongoing series. And nobody is batting an eye.

    So the idea that anyone would take issue with Barry and Wally both maintaining their own ongoings, especially when the latter has such a dedicated and large fanbase, just rings false to me. Again, Wally is the one who made the Flash popular in the 90s. That's DC just leaving money on the table.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 08-20-2019 at 07:45 PM.

  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    6,935

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Digifiend View Post
    Well, Bart's back, and Barry and Wally make three... but they added several new speedsters too (the Chinese Flash Avery Ho, Godspeed, Kid Flash Wallace), so there's more than half a dozen again even though Jay and several others are still missing.
    Yeah, but how big a role has Bart played in the Flash books since he's been back? I'm honestly asking. Because it seems he's only interacted with his YJ friends.

  10. #25
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    1,358

    Default

    I mean over at Marvel, Clint Hawkeye has Kate Bishop which is clearly a hero/sidekick relationship and Marvel is completely ok with it and both characters are featured. There are fans of Kate of Clint and both. Completely fine. Over at DC grown up sidekicks aren't allowed. Even though that concept existed since the 1980s. Now all of a sudden it's not ok?

  11. #26
    Fantastic Member Dr. Ellingham's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Port Wenn
    Posts
    414

    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    That does not account for the continued and unrelenting assassination and/or erasure of Wally West from the DC Universe that's occurred under the current editorial.
    Absolutely. It's a dumpster fire.

    DC knew they'd be rebooting the DCU, and that Wally would revert to Kid Flash, with the West family becoming African American to coordinate with the TV show. And that was at least a resolution of sorts. Then Geoff Johns came along with DCU Rebirth to complicate things, and bring classic Wally back. But now, whatever plan he had to integrate OG Wally is out the window.

    So now DC has two Wallys, which is...not good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    So the idea that anyone would take issue with Barry and Wally both maintaining their own ongoings, especially when the latter has such a dedicated and large fanbase, just rings false to me. Again, Wally is the one who made the Flash popular in the 90s. That's DC just leaving money on the table.
    I think comic fans, especially longtime, vocal fans would love it.

    But the reality is that "the Flash" is a character, not two characters. It's always been that way. One lead characters, with a family of supporting characters that show up from time to time. It was that way in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, up through today.

    Most importantly, the overwhelming majority of people are relatively agnostic about Barry vs. Wally, or this era versus that. DC knows this - if they tell compelling Flash stories, that's the critical path to success. I'm in that camp too - I love Waids' run because it was good. Same with Bates' run, or Johns' run.

    And outside comics - the important aspect to DC - this isn't even a question. Or a problem. Which goes back to my point: DC knows the titular role is important. The people behind the masks matter - when they're in the titular role. But not so much outside that. For better and worse.

  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    6,935

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    Absolutely. It's a dumpster fire.

    DC knew they'd be rebooting the DCU, and that Wally would revert to Kid Flash, with the West family becoming African American to coordinate with the TV show. And that was at least a resolution of sorts. Then Geoff Johns came along with DCU Rebirth to complicate things, and bring classic Wally back. But now, whatever plan he had to integrate OG Wally is out the window.

    So now DC has two Wallys, which is...not good.
    You seem to be suggesting that Johns just brought back Wally because of his own personal preferences and everything was hunky-dory before that. It wasn't. Fans were infuriated over the reboot. They hated how much DC had changed in general. #WheresWally became a trending hashtag on Twitter and every convention, people would go to DC panels and ask "where's Wally?" for months.

    I think comic fans, especially longtime, vocal fans would love it.

    But the reality is that "the Flash" is a character, not two characters. It's always been that way. One lead characters, with a family of supporting characters that show up from time to time. It was that way in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, up through today.
    You mean except for the several decades where Jay and Barry and then Jay and Wally both co-existed simultaneously using the Flash identity??



    I'm sorry, but history shows that you're just wrong. The Flash is not really one person. Its bigger than just Barry Allen. Hell, Barry wasn't even the first and he arguably wasn't even the most popular. The Flash is a mantle that's been passed down and/or used simultaneously. That's part of its appeal as a franchise and makes it different from the likes of Batman or Superman or Spider-Man or even Captain America.



    Most importantly, the overwhelming majority of people are relatively agnostic about Barry vs. Wally, or this era versus that. DC knows this - if they tell compelling Flash stories, that's the critical path to success. I'm in that camp too - I love Waids' run because it was good. Same with Bates' run, or Johns' run.
    Fiction, by its nature, invites people to get attached to the characters they read about. Wally is no different, as past fan behavior has shown. So, its completely understandable that fans feel disenfranchised when DC chooses to either ignore or flat out denigrate one of their favorite characters.

    And you wanna know one of the reasons that Waid's Flash run was so good? It was because of Waid's examination of Wally as his own character. Waid was able to tell stories and character arcs with Wally that he wouldn't have been able to do with Barry: his fear of never living up to Barry's example, his less than perfect social life, his relationship with Linda, his struggles with responsibility, etc. All of that played into making that run so popular.

    In other words, Wally is unique from Barry. He's not just another random name who can don the Flash costume. He's his own person with his own distinct traits. So, just telling good stories is not enough. They have to recognize that people would like to read good stories about the characters they love as well.


    Its also just a bad business decision on DC's part because of the many reasons I've already mentioned.

    And outside comics - the important aspect to DC - this isn't even a question. Or a problem. Which goes back to my point: DC knows the titular role is important. The people behind the masks matter - when they're in the titular role. But not so much outside that. For better and worse.
    Except we're not talking about outside the comics. We're talking about the comics. And its completely unnecessary to assassinate Wally's character in order to prop Barry up when both can be given their due. DC's done it before, with both the Flash and other franchises. Does Green Lantern ring a bell? Hell, Marvel is doing it now with Spider-Man of all characters. So yeah, its not difficult.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 08-21-2019 at 10:16 AM.

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    3,563

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    So the idea that anyone would take issue with Barry and Wally both maintaining their own ongoings, especially when the latter has such a dedicated and large fanbase, just rings false to me. Again, Wally is the one who made the Flash popular in the 90s. That's DC just leaving money on the table.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    I think comic fans, especially longtime, vocal fans would love it.

    But the reality is that "the Flash" is a character, not two characters. It's always been that way. One lead characters, with a family of supporting characters that show up from time to time. It was that way in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, up through today.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    You mean except for the several decades where Jay and Barry and then Jay and Wally both co-existed simultaneously using the Flash identity??
    Jay Garrick hasn't had his own comic since 1949. As Ellingham said, he's a supporting character who shows up from time to time in the pages of The Flash, and a regular cast member in Justice Society.

    And for the first 6 years of Wally's solo series, they didn't co-exist at all - Jay was in limbo.

  14. #29
    Extraordinary Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Posts
    6,935

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Jay Garrick hasn't had his own comic since 1949. As Ellingham said, he's a supporting character who shows up from time to time in the pages of The Flash, and a regular cast member in Justice Society.
    I’m sorry, but that just doesn’t capture how important of a character Jay is in the DC Universe. I’d say that being a founding and permanent member of what is essentially one of the flagship teams of the DC Universe is a pretty big deal for someone who is using the same identity as another one of DC’s main heroes.

    Again, Green Lantern was in a similar situation with Alan Scott not only coexisting alongside Hal Jordan, Kyle Rayner, John Stewart, Guy Gardener, and the others, but literally having nothing to do with the Corps. And again, nobody had any issues with that for decades. Nobody was confused with the idea of Jay Garrick co-existing alongside Barry or Wally. So why would they have issue with Wally coexisting alongside Barry? Especially if they treated it similarly to the classic Batman/Nightwing set up, not that Nightwing is currently being treated much better than Wally.

    And for the first 6 years of Wally's solo series, they didn't co-exist at all - Jay was in limbo.
    Well that doesn’t really matter since he became so important to the Flash comics that it was hard to even imagine those comics or the Flash family without him.
    Last edited by Green Goblin of Sector 2814; 08-21-2019 at 11:01 PM.

  15. #30
    Mighty Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    1,358

    Default

    I agree totally about the Wally thing as others have said. I also have grievances about Team Arrow and the Aquaman family. I love Emiko so I'm not saying get rid of her or anything. Have her team up with Mia that would be a cool mini. Or have Roy and Emiko team up in a mini as well. Why are Roy and Garth treated like trash also? They were founding members of the Titans and have close ties with their mentors.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •