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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Wally is currently coexisting alongside Barry, in the same capacity Jay Garrick co-existed alongside Barry/Wally, which is the example you gave. So what's the complaint?
    The complaint is that Wally's treatment is one that they never gave to Jay back in the Silver Age through to the 90s and 2000s. Jay was respected. Wally has been denigrated repeatedly. First, his entire existence is wiped from the record, then his wife and chidren are taken from him, and then he's established as a killer who would go to extreme lengths to cover up his crime. And while Jay's current situation involves the former, it doesn't involve the latter.

    So, I'm sorry, but the belief that Wally West fans don't have a legitimate complaint about how the character has been treated is just ignorant of the facts. Jay Garrick was never turned into a killer who literally framed two other people for mass murder.

    It's relevant when you're saying they should treat Barry/Wally the same way they treated Barry/Jay and Wally/Jay. Jay was gone for 6 years. He didn't show up in Wally's Flash comic until #73. The Justice Society comic was cancelled after 10 issues, then it took another 6 years for the series to return.
    Again, Jay went on to have such an integral part in the Flash comics and Flash family that its really not analogous to what's being done to Wally. Jay was literally one of the key players in seminal Flash stories like the Return of Barry Allen, Terminal Velocity, etc. and again is and always has been cemented as a core member of the JSA. Wally is back for what, five minutes before he's shipped off out of the Flash title and off to Sanctuary where he's turned into the literal villain of the story??

    The difference between what happened to Jay in the 90s and the current Wally situation is that, even if there was a period where Jay wasn't used, it likely wasn't because someone at DC editorial had it out for him. With Wally, however, it's become more and more evident that he's been targeted because some of those in charge at DC find his very existence problematic. Some of TPTB don't like the fact that he makes Barry Allen look "old" because apparently superheroes can never be portrayed as being over 40.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 08-22-2019 at 04:28 PM.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    The complaint is that Wally's treatment is one that they never gave to Jay back in the Silver Age through to the 90s and 2000s. Jay was respected. Wally has been denigrated repeatedly. First, his entire existence is wiped from the record, then his wife and chidren are taken from him, and then he's established as a killer who would go to extreme lengths to cover up his crime. And while Jay's current situation involves the former, it doesn't involve the latter.

    So, I'm sorry, but the belief that Wally West fans don't have a legitimate complaint about how the character has been treated is just ignorant of the facts. Jay Garrick was never turned into a killer who literally framed two other people for mass murder.
    You're talking about the content of the stories, and characterization. That is separate from the previous discussion about Flash being treated as a singular character.

    Dr. Ellingham's observation was correct - DC Comics has always had one main Flash at a time, with the others featuring as occasional supporting cast members (or part of a team), and that's what the setup still is now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Again, Jay went on to have such an integral part in the Flash comics and Flash family that its really not analogous to what's being done to Wally. Jay was literally one of the key players in seminal Flash stories like the Return of Barry Allen, Terminal Velocity, etc. and again is and always has been cemented as a core member of the JSA. Wally is back for what, five minutes before he's shipped off out of the Flash title and off to Sanctuary where he's turned into the literal villain of the story??
    Jay Garrick was in Return of Barry Allen and Terminal Velocity, but they weren't really about him the same way Flash War was about Wally. Likewise, the Justice Society series that was cancelled after 10 issues wasn't really about Jay Garrick, whereas Wally West was the de facto lead character in the Rebirth run of Titans.

    Wally is being used more prominently than Jay Garrick was in the 1990s. You just don't like the stories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    The difference between what happened to Jay in the 90s and the current Wally situation is that, even if there was a period where Jay wasn't used, it likely wasn't because someone at DC editorial had it out for him. With Wally, however, it's become more and more evident that he's been targeted because some of those in charge at DC find his very existence problematic. Some of TPTB don't like the fact that he makes Barry Allen look "old" because apparently superheroes can never be portrayed as being over 40.
    Jay Garrick and the Justice Society were written out because DC editorial didn't want senior citizen superheroes. The Justice Society comic was cancelled after 10 issues for that very reason.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    You're talking about the content of the stories, and characterization. That is separate from the previous discussion about Flash being treated as a singular character.

    Dr. Ellingham's observation was correct - DC Comics has always had one main Flash at a time, with the others featuring as occasional supporting cast members (or part of a team), and that's what the setup still is now.
    I mean, is the content of stories and characterization not synonymous with treatment of characters?? This is about how characters are treated, after all. So, the content of the stories showed how the Flash was a book that focused a lot on the Flash family, not necessarily just one character.

    Jay Garrick was in Return of Barry Allen and Terminal Velocity, but they weren't really about him the same way Flash War was about Wally. Likewise, the Justice Society series that was cancelled after 10 issues wasn't really about Jay Garrick, whereas Wally West was the de facto lead character in the Rebirth run of Titans.
    Well, firstly, Jay was still a big player. Secondly, however, you're using two very bad examples there. In the Rebirth run of Titans, Wally was the focus for the first arc but then it wasn't even long before he was exiled from that title, but not before being given a pacemaker.

    As for Flash War, that story was literally used as a stepping stone to the eventual assassination of Wally's character that was in Heroes in Crisis. The entire story was basically resolved with Barry and co telling Wally he needed professional help and painting him as unhinged before they booted him off to Sanctuary. If that story had ended differently, then you might have an argument.

    Wally is being used more prominently than Jay Garrick was in the 1990s. You just don't like the stories.
    What fan would like stories that consistently go out of their way to paint Wally as a bad person??? Again, he's been turned into a literal killer who framed two innocent people to cover up for his crime. Before that, he was painted as unhinged and misguided for wanting to save his family.

    Again, Wally West fans have a legitimate bone to pick. You're just making excuses for the people who are gaslighting them.

    Jay Garrick and the Justice Society were written out because DC editorial didn't want senior citizen superheroes. The Justice Society comic was cancelled after 10 issues for that very reason.
    And this refutes my point about how Wally is being targeted, how?
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 08-22-2019 at 05:38 PM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixSpeedSamurai View Post
    DC decided to have a single cohesive continuity in the mid-80's, so we read and were invested in it and expcted it to continue and build upon itself.

    Tim's progression as Red Robin was fine and he was still fairly popular. They crapped on him and most of his YJ4/TT group when New 52 came around. Just poor ideas and execution.

    Bendis wanted to do YJ, DC wasn't doing anything else with the characters, and really so far, they have been pretty disconnected from their respective DC families.
    The YJ 4 were screwed over by Johns and the writers who came after him before the New 52.

  5. #50
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    shouldn't this be in the Batman section?
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham (respect thread)
    John Stewart is my Lantern.
    Naomi was great, pass it on...
    DC: Batman and the Outsiders, Justice League, Teen Titans, Deathstroke, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Doomsday Clock
    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, Ironheart, X-Men (2019), Venom, Avengers
    Anticipated titles: Far Sector, Love Army*, The Other History of DC*

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    I mean, is the content of stories and characterization not synonymous with treatment of characters??
    I'm not discussing whether a character is being written well. I'm discussing Dr. Ellingham's comment about DC treating Flash as a singular character, and your response to that premise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    Well, firstly, Jay was still a big player. Secondly, however, you're using two very bad examples there. In the Rebirth run of Titans, Wally was the focus for the first arc but then it wasn't even long before he was exiled from that title.
    He was also the focus of the issue with Superman, and the crossover with Teen Titans and Deathstroke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    but not before being given a pacemaker. And as for Flash War, that story was literally used as a stepping stone to the eventual assassination of Wally's character that was in Heroes in Crisis. The entire story was basically resolved with Barry and co telling Wally he needed professional help and painting him as unhinged before they booted him off to Sanctuary.
    This is story content and characterization, which is not what I'm discussing. I'm discussing how much the character is being utilized, relative to Jay Garrick when Wally was the star.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    What fan would like stories that consistently go out of their way to paint Wally as a bad person??? Again, he's been turned into a literal killer who framed two innocent people to cover up for his crime. Before that, he was painted as unhinged and misguided for wanting to save his family.

    Again, Wally West fans have a legitimate bone to pick. You're just making excuses for the people who are gaslighting them.
    I never commented on whether the people who worked on those stories are or are not fans, nor did I comment on the contents of the stories or whether anyone has a "legitimate bone to pick". I'm discussing Dr. Ellingham's comments about DC Comics treating Flash as a singular character, and your reply about Barry & Wally co-existing in the same manner Wally & Jay did.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    And this refutes my point about how Wally is being targeted, how?
    I never claimed to refute your point about Wally being targeted. The point I refuted was "even if there was a period where Jay wasn't used, it likely wasn't because someone at DC editorial had it out for him". Jay Garrick and the Justice Society were unused for years because people in DC editorial didn't want senior citizen super-heroes.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    I'm not discussing whether a character is being written well. I'm discussing Dr. Ellingham's comment about DC treating Flash as a singular character, and your response to that premise.
    The two discussions are not mutually exclusive. What allowed for the mutually beneficial coexistence of and sharing of the mantle between Jay and Wally in the 90s and onwards had a lot to do with the fact that Flash writers wrote Jay well and made him into an important character in the Flash mythos. That is the whole crux of this discussion.

    He was also the focus of the issue with Superman, and the crossover with Teen Titans and Deathstroke.
    OMG, one whole issue and a crossover that ended up with him getting pwned by Damian Wayne and being given a pacemaker. Like, these are seriously the best examples you can think of?

    And, yes, I'm not gonna lie. That Flash annual where Wally reunites with Frankie Kane is probably one of the best recent stories DC has published and actually brought tears to my eyes, but it promised something on which DC has so far failed to deliver.

    This is story content and characterization, which is not what I'm discussing. I'm discussing how much the character is being utilized, relative to Jay Garrick when Wally was the star.
    Again, they are not mutually exclusive. You can't just draw a line at "oh well, Wally made an appearance" and say that therefore his fans have nothing to complain about. Those appearances have to, ya know, show the character in a good light or at least in a not-horrible light.

    I never commented on whether the people who worked on those stories are or are not fans, nor did I comment on the contents of the stories or whether anyone has a "legitimate bone to pick". I'm discussing Dr. Ellingham's comments about DC Comics treating Flash as a singular character, and your reply about Barry & Wally co-existing in the same manner Wally & Jay did.
    In one of your comments, you literally said "Wally is currently coexisting alongside Barry, in the same capacity Jay Garrick co-existed alongside Barry/Wally, which is the example you gave. So what's the complaint?" Well, the content of the stories is the complaint. Even if we could call the current status quo as Wally and Barry "co-existing," they are not co-existing well because one of them keeps having their name dragged through the mud.

    That is not co-existing in the same manner in which Jay and Wally did. Again, Jay was actually given respect and written well as a member of the Flash family. Something that I don't think anybody can currently say for Wally. And again, this isn't just about the number of appearances that Wally makes. Its also about the quality of those appearances.

    I never claimed to refute your point about Wally being targeted. The point I refuted was "even if there was a period where Jay wasn't used, it likely wasn't because someone at DC editorial had it out for him". Jay Garrick and the Justice Society were unused for years because people in DC editorial didn't want senior citizen super-heroes.
    Except, again, your posts seem to have the undertone of "well, Jay wasn't used for a long time because people didn't want old superheroes, so therefore Wally West's current situation isn't unprecedented." However, there are two responses to that: 1) how do two wrongs make a right in that regard? And, of course, 2) Jay Garrick was still never turned into a literal killer and unhinged villain who is then arrested by the Justice League.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 08-22-2019 at 06:51 PM.

  8. #53
    Concerned Citizen Citizen Kane's Avatar
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    Maybe I'm alone on this boat, but I prefer an aged Batman opposed to a younger one. A batman in his later 30's-mid 40's has been the sweet-spot for me; that's where he's at his best, in my opinion. It's unfortunate the DC editors seem to be so anal over this, and then decide to mess with other characters as result.

  9. #54
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    I’m not going to be dragged into an argument about story content and characterisation. That’s subjective and there are already more than enough threads about it. All of my replies to this thread have been about how DC balance two characters named The Flash co-existing. I don’t think Wally West fans on this forum would be satisfied if he got the level of usage Jay Garrick did during Wally’s run.

  10. #55
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    The core issue here is that Tim and Wally were once primary characters based on the roles they inhabited, the brand-name comics they starred in. Once that's no longer the case, they become satellite characters, with all the risk that goes with that. They're basically redundant - except to their fans.

    Probably most fans want Tim around, portrayed well. But - how many jump ship and don't invest in the new Robin? Not enough that it matters. So Tim is up for misuse, being ignored, being rewritten. Just like most every other star that gets replaced by the next revision.

    We can all name beloved characters that we wanted more of, to last longer. But comics history is littered with discarded iterations in a chain. Tim, especially, is tough because there are so many Robins, and Damien is entrenched. (Whereas I think eventually DC will carve out a role for Wally West somewhere.)
    Last edited by Conn Seanery; 08-23-2019 at 04:16 PM.

  11. #56
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    Actually the OP was pointing out the double standard to this practice when it comes to Tim Drake, and asking why Tim Drake is immune from the Wally treatment. With them constantly bending over backwards to find ways to keep him relevant despite not being Robin anymore. Like making him the creator of TTs and launching a line around his team, or making him Batman Beyond, or giving him to one of their highest paid creators so they can try again to create a new persona for him and again try to launch that line around his team.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 08-23-2019 at 02:44 PM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Actually the OP was pointing out the double standard to this practice when it comes to Tim Drake, and asking why Tim Drake is immune from the Wally treatment. With them constantly bending over backwards to find ways to keep him relevant despite not being Robin anymore. Like making him the creator of TTs and launching a line around his team, or making him Batman Beyond, or giving him to one of their highest paid creators so they can try again to create a new persona for him and launch that line around his team.
    Tim proved he can sell, he had over 200 issues of solo books and a great YJ and TT (Johns) run. DC will give him a shot to carry a book.

    Also, I believe Bendis requested to do YJ, and he can pretty much do whatever he wants.
    Pulls: Batman, Detective Comics, Flash Forward, and Young Justice.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixSpeedSamurai View Post
    Tim proved he can sell, he had over 200 issues of solo books and a great YJ and TT (Johns) run. DC will give him a shot to carry a book.

    Also, I believe Bendis requested to do YJ, and he can pretty much do whatever he wants.
    A lot of the solo issues he sold were when he was wearing a major brand (Robin) that is bigger than he is as an individual.
    It's telling that DC has struggled to figure out what to do with him once Damian entered the picture.

  14. #59
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    Wally held a lengthy run too. Tim’s solo proved they could sell him as Robin way back when, everything with him not as Robin though has been a dud. They keep giving him "shots" and they have nothing to show for it.

    The OP raises a good point, why do they keep trying to make Tim the next Nightwing when they don’t even want Nightwing around. It’s not like Tim’s sudo-Nightwing has gained any traction anywhere, to the point they are pretty much trying again from scratch but now with one of their probably most expensive creators.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 08-23-2019 at 01:48 PM.

  15. #60
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    I liked the Chris Yost/Fabian Nicieza Red Robin solo .

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