Page 8 of 13 FirstFirst ... 456789101112 ... LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 188
  1. #106
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    4,592

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    And to be clear, as I've said I find the fact that they gave that non-explanation for Bishop's return and that the X-Men seem to have shrugged it off to be super dicey, lol. He needs a better redemption arc than that.
    Redemption arcs require more time than Marvel is willing to give to a character not named Logan, and to a lesser extent, Magneto. lol

    Not to get OT because that would need its own thread. But I think Creed could've had a damn good arc post AXIS where the inversion was only the start of his redemption. BUT we had constant relaunches and he never stayed with one writer long enough for anything to develop. Then Pak got him, had no plans for him, and used him as comedy relief to prop up Mary Sue Logan. Rosenberg's mess followed after. Now Hickman doesn't appear to be doing anything of note with him either. His Creed reads like Pak's.

    So his post-AXIS arc remains squandered potential. Marvel did nothing for him. And Bishop will be the same. Just get him on the X-Men & move. They won't devote anymore time on redemption for him than that.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 08-22-2019 at 10:43 AM.

  2. #107
    Mighty Member powerpax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2019
    Posts
    1,147

    Default

    I'm not remotely interested in Creed being redeemed, but that's me.

  3. #108
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    4,592

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    I'm not remotely interested in Creed being redeemed, but that's me.
    He was one of my favorite villains like Dexter or Hannibal Lecture. But that version died, and we now have Beavis. lol Which I am not interested in. So I was all for him getting a promotion to anti-hero if it was gonna come with better treatment.

    But point being, they didn't spend any time letting anything develop, because Bunn had numerous plans for him. So Bishop will be the same. He's back with the X-Men where he should be, but they aren't gonna spend lots of time on a personal redemption arc for him. So we get what we have here or him staying in Limbo.

    That kind of detail & development is reserved for very specific characters. And majority will not be making the cut for them. Especially with relaunches & reshuffles where characters will be in & out of various books, which writers would actually have to keep up with.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 08-22-2019 at 10:51 AM.

  4. #109
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,309

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by powerpax View Post
    Firstly, it's character assassination of Bishop no matter what.

    But more importantly, yes, the fact is it's different if your favorite characters are white, or if you are a white reader. You may not find that 'fair' or logical, but it's still true. I am white and can see myself in countless characters (though I'm also gay, and can't see that too often either). How many options does a young black man reading X-Men have to identify and find himself, outside of Bishop? What message does it send to readers of color when Bishop is turned into a bloodthirsty villain who is hunting young white females - a racist stereotype that is over a century old? This is not intentional on the part of the X-office, but that doesn't make it any less tacky or regrettable.

    You can claim to not see color in these characters. Fine. But color does exist, representation does matter and they are not all created equal.
    I'm not disagreeing that the story wasn't character assassination. I share the same view as Leirus on page 6 that they took a simple Cable vs Bishop story too far and that Demon Bear story can't even Band-Aid the thing.

    I'm saying you can't use the story to accuse *checks notes*

    Mike Carey, Joe Quesda and Duane Swierczynski of racial bias.
    "Cable was right!"

  5. #110
    BANNED fsger's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    350

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    I'm not disagreeing that the story wasn't character assassination. I share the same view as Leirus on page 6 that they took a simple Cable vs Bishop story too far and that Demon Bear story can't even Band-Aid the thing.

    I'm saying you can't use the story to accuse *checks notes*

    Mike Carey, Joe Quesda and Duane Swierczynski of racial bias.
    And yet is still nothing compared to other characters like Hank Pym (white) were they act like the only thing he ever did was beat his wife and even make stories about that.

    Bishop got it easy because Marvel ignores his mess.

    The people like me who don't like what he did are the ones who have to deal with it, Marvel is acting like he didn't do anything so his fans have nothing to complain about Marvel
    Last edited by fsger; 08-22-2019 at 12:11 PM.

  6. #111
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    7,589

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Her mother is from Algeria. Monet was born in Bosnia. Then the way PAD introduced it seemed like a cheap gimmick & nothing else. Monet says she must be Muslim because her mother is from Algeria, and most of them are Muslims.

    Then she shows no Muslim practices, especially when he introduced this random addition to her character while showing her as an exhibitionist who does nude modelling and keeps her boobs out. Now of course all Muslims don't cover up. Same way all Christians don't wait for marriage to have sex. lol But what was really the point of that addition? It just seems shallow without much behind it.

    Then he has cheap dialogue saying she's someone's worst nightmare for being a Muslim mutant with PMS.

    What does her Muslim heritage have to do with anything in this scene? Again, comes off like a gimmick so he can say "look we got a Muslim in the books." Especially given the controversy of him whitening her and getting mad when he made her slightly tan, and fans still had objections. Then he dismisses that fans are never happy, even if he made her dark as Storm. Despite the fact she was darker than Storm in some parts of GenX, and nobody had an issue with it.

    Kamala seems like a better Muslim representation, and it was always a feature part of her character. Compared to Monet where they just tacked it on 12 years after her conception & she's never shown to be religious before or after it. lol Hell she's died and come back saying there is no Heaven. So I would think she sure as Hell is not religious now and wouldn't identify with a religion. But writers at Marvel & fans hold on tighter to that Muslim retcon than they do with her being a black woman, which was a part of her original conception.

    I feel the same way about Claremont randomly making Bishop Aboriginal Australian. Unnecessary.
    I think she meant Muslim the ethnic group? there is muslim, arabs, turks and persians. Some are islamic, christians...

    that is a very weird dialogue LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Fang View Post
    Redemption arcs require more time than Marvel is willing to give to a character not named Logan, and to a lesser extent, Magneto. lol
    .
    It's been more than 10 years too. He already apologized to Hope and Cable...
    They already wasted the redempiton storyline, so now is better to move on
    Last edited by spirit2011; 08-22-2019 at 11:02 AM.

  7. #112
    Astonishing Member Silver Fang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Posts
    4,592

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    I think she meant Muslim the ethnic group? there is muslim, arabs, turks and persians. Some are islamic, christians...

    that is a very weird dialogue LOL
    During an argument with Siryn, she asks if Muslims don't believe in Hell, and Monet says they have a Hell. So it seems it was the religious Muslim PAD was tacking on.

    But he didn't treat it with any seriousness. so it's hard to tell what he was going for. I mostly try to ignore his X-Factor run because I didn't care for anything he did regarding Monet and I am fine with none of it coming back up. Including the costumes. lol

    She's wearing the above one in Hickman's run. It's ok, but if we did a rewind, I liked Anka's costume which came with better characterization imo lol.
    Last edited by Silver Fang; 08-22-2019 at 11:32 AM.

  8. #113
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    4,154

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    The treatment of Bishop was absolutely racist and I cannot fathom how anyone could argue otherwise. Some people are so blind to what constitutes racism, just like Rosenberg being non lgbt was blind to his wolfsbane story. People of the majority have huge blinders towards these issues. The Bishop thing is unforgivable to me , same as with the wolfsbane story.
    To say that Bishop's story was racist would be to prove one of two things:

    1) That they made Bishop evil for the primary reason that he is black. Unless you want to cite where they did it solely because he is black, that isn't true.

    2) That his actions could be construed as being hurtfully stereotypical. Last I checked, trying to prevent an apocalyptic future by killing someone and going overboard with it isn't exactly an African-American stereotype.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

  9. #114
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    7,589

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PsychoEFrost View Post
    To say that Bishop's story was racist would be to prove one of two things:

    1) That they made Bishop evil for the primary reason that he is black. Unless you want to cite where they did it solely because he is black, that isn't true.

    2) That his actions could be construed as being hurtfully stereotypical. Last I checked, trying to prevent an apocalyptic future by killing someone and going overboard with it isn't exactly an African-American stereotype.
    1 of course no writer would ever say that. Racism can be very subtitle and even not intentional

    2. It was more of angry violent black man stereotype

  10. #115
    Incredible Member MechaJeanix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    630

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    1 of course no writer would ever say that. Racism can be very subtitle and even not intentional

    2. It was more of angry violent black man stereotype
    We finally agree on something! This makes me happy.

    Yes, there is implicit bias and racism at play even if it was not explicitly directed or even intended. For a lot of people racism has to be explicit and in your face. Not so. The fact that the black guy was used as a menace, threat, and danger to young white girl is so racist in the use of the tired racist trope. The optics were racist. The trope was racist. The whole thing was problematic af.

  11. #116
    BANNED fsger's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    350

    Default

    Lol and nobody answered this. keep ignoring everything that is not convenient

    Quote Originally Posted by fsger View Post
    What does racism even has to do with this anyway??? Not a damm thing.
    All i see is people wanting to ignore Bishops mistakes hiding behind something that has nothing to do with them.
    Wish we all had that excuse for other characters.

    We all have to live with our favorite charaters doing hedious stuff, with them being hated for that.

    Marvel had Hank Pym beat his wife and don't let anybody forget it. Yet nobody is claiming Marvel is anti white.
    You're all complaining and Marvel is ignoring the whole mess. which he doesn't deserve, everybody is judged except him and the ones who get it easy are the ones that complain. Ironic.
    Last edited by fsger; 08-22-2019 at 11:53 AM.

  12. #117
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Posts
    5,309

    Default

    Heel turns are a common trope in comics and there's nothing wrong with having a black male villain.
    This "black man hunting white women" stereotype that keeps getting mentioned is just a red herring to push this racial bias opinion which you still can't prove that the creative team has.
    "Cable was right!"

  13. #118
    Extraordinary Member spirit2011's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    7,589

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MechaJeanix View Post
    We finally agree on something! This makes me happy.

    Yes, there is implicit bias and racism at play even if it was not explicitly directed or even intended. For a lot of people racism has to be explicit and in your face. Not so. The fact that the black guy was used as a menace, threat, and danger to young white girl is so racist in the use of the tired racist trope. The optics were racist. The trope was racist. The whole thing was problematic af.
    No one is calling writers and editors racists. I doubt they had the intention, but I also think they didn't tried to get a better idea and ignored the implications. Also not a good redemption story was made.

    Quote Originally Posted by Triniking1234 View Post
    Heel turns are a common trope in comics and there's nothing wrong with having a black male villain.
    This "black man hunting white women" stereotype that keeps getting mentioned is just a red herring to push this racial bias opinion which you still can't prove that the creative team has.
    No one said that can't have male black villains;

    So a stereotype is a red herring...

    if they choose a white character to do the dirty job we wouldn'f be having this conversation
    Last edited by spirit2011; 08-22-2019 at 12:01 PM.

  14. #119
    BANNED fsger's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Posts
    350

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post

    if they choose a white character to do the dirty job we wouldn'f be having this conversation
    They have done many times, Everybody else has to deal with the consecuences, they just don't feel entlited to ignore it.


    Way to ignore the real issues, behind real problems that have nothing to do with the story.

    if that was Cyclops you would be asking for his head.

  15. #120
    Astonishing Member PsychoEFrost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2018
    Posts
    4,154

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by spirit2011 View Post
    No one is calling writers and editors racists. I doubt they had the intention, but I also think they didn't tried to get a better idea and ignored the implications. Also not a good redemption story was made.



    No one said that can't have male black villains;

    So a stereotype is a red herring...

    if they choose a white character to do the dirty job we wouldn'f be having this conversation
    So black people in comics can only be treated with the utmost absolute respect and cannot be shown doing anything morally questionable and must be shown in the best possible light at all times?

    That's not helpful. That's just patronizing.
    "It is the truest mark of heroism: to give your life aware that those you save will never know."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •