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  1. #91
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    The whole thing is messy. On the one hand it could, like Rucka is doing now, be used as meta commentary on issues in the real world and fandom's view of Superman/Clark/Lois. It lets Lois in on the joke so to speak subverting some of the silver age tropes that a lot of people like to pretend she never moved past as a character. We'd know the people ragging on Clark and Lois aren't right, and they'd be likely be portrayed as in the wrong.

    But on the other hand, in universe, if you're not in on the joke it looks and will be acknowledged as it should be. Lois will have conned Clark into marrying her and raising Superman's kid. All while she's sleeping with another man. Superman himself will actually look pretty terrible as well And rightly so. He'd be lying to a supposed friend in Clark and taking advantage of him. It's not Superman behavior at all. It just doesn't leave any of them looking good.

    I think that is why Clark will have to be shown to have been in on it publicly and they go the step parent route. It still allows for some.people to wrongly criticize him and Lois. It adds a wrinkle to Jon's life and Superman's but it doesn't quite literally tarnish all the characters in the public of the DCU.

  2. #92
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I don't see much parallel. It's about wanting Clark - in his daily life - not to be treated with disdain. You like the "laughing up his sleeve" approach where Superman is pulling one over on everyone with his bumbling-Clark fake persona, so you're fine with it. Others (like myself) don't. You get that, I know, since you've expressed it well. But with this Jon setup, Clark is perceived by other-in-universe-characters as the guy likely conned into thinking Jon was his while his wife has been screwing someone else the entire time. And object of pity and ridicule (in-universe, not in real-world - and that's what Robanker said). So of course we don't like him being treated that way day in, day out. Or Lois being perceived as she would be.

    Chris was a straight-up relative-staying-with-them from the in-universe perspective and would have just morphed into adopted kid if he hadn't speed-aged. No disdain/pity from co-workers. It's his enemy's kid, sure, but he'd never are about that, even if he'd known from day one. And Zod didn't send Chris with the intent of adoption, did he? I thought it was just a convenient portal-opener. But it's been along while since I read those
    But Clark has always been treated with some measure of disdain. Lombard for example has always treated him with contempt and Clark screws with him right back, on the sly. I guess my question is what’s the point of the secret identity if both Clark and Superman are personality-wise the same and afforded equal amounts of respect? Bruce Wayne is treated as a worthless playboy in his public persona and most people seem fine with it. The bumbling Clark Kent is an act, something Clark pretends to be while saving his “real self” (who I personally see as the man he is out of costume but alone with Lois, Jon, or his close friends “in the know”) for only a trusted few.

    Clark’s journalism is where he should shine and where people see his worth, not his day to day interactions with co-workers imo.

  3. #93
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    But Clark has always been treated with some measure of disdain.
    Actually, I'd argue that's a big difference in post-COIE (or really, bronze age) stories from older ones. Colleagues like and respect Clark. Oh, sure, you have Lombard, but he's the exception, not the rule. Clark didn't have to go through day-to-day life with everyone treating him like a pathetic loser, and that was a plus to me.

    I guess my question is what’s the point of the secret identity if both Clark and Superman are personality-wise the same and afforded equal amounts of respect?
    There is a vast gulf between "this is a fantastic reporter and good man" and "this is the most important hero in the world."

    Bruce Wayne is treated as a worthless playboy in his public persona and most people seem fine with it
    I'm actually very annoyed at the loss of the bronzier Bruce and him being replaced by "Brucie" with almost every interaction outside his family.

    Clark’s journalism is where he should shine and where people see his worth, not his day to day interactions with co-workers imo.
    His journalism (which, he should definitely be great, but firmly in second place to Lois to me) is part of his everyday life.

    For me, the point of secret identity is to protect loved ones from attack by enemies and to be able to have a "normal" life - go to ball games, hang out with friends, not always be at arms length with every new person because of celebrity. And in Bruce's case, to inspire fear, which anonymity helps with. I really dislike the idea of everyday life being a "disguise" for anyone, even though, of course, they do keep some secrets. Like Silver Age Flash and Green Lantern - they (almost) never pretended to be empty-headed or cowardly losers. I hate the idea of heroes that can't really relate to or connect to anyone because they are always pretending their personality is entirely different than it really it. No meaningful relationships can be build out-of-costume that way.

    That works better for me than Clark Kent as a disguise. Despite not showing off detective skills, the idea of Bruce as a disguise didn't really become a big thing until the 1980s. I'm not saying no aspect of it existed before (probably heavier in golden age than silver), but "playboy" wasn't the whole of how he was perceived, most of the time (and he actually was a playboy, not just play-acting, often enough - it's just not all he was). He, as Bruce, was at least still shown as a respected person into the 1970s.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 08-21-2019 at 08:41 AM.

  4. #94
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Well they did move beyond Clark being a schmuck during Post Crisis and really up until now. The Clark Kent and the Superman personas have slowly bled into one another to the point they don’t really differ that much. I guess the reason I’m ok with it is that the public looking at Clark as a loser is kind of the appeal of Supes. “Everyone thinks I suck but if they only knew what I really could do”. But if you’re someone who likes the “Superman is what I can do, Clark Kent is who I am” interpretation then I can totally sympathize with why you’d dislike this. It’s a return to the “Superman disguised as Clark Kent” incarnation in some ways. And I am interested in seeing a return to the more extreme differences between Clark and Superman once more.

    That said I find “Cuck Kent” hilarious, because of how people in the real world seem to take it seriously. Clark got “cucked” by Superman who is also... Clark? So people are calling him a cuck for sleeping with his wife and raising his own biological son? Lmao that doesn’t make any sense! God I don’t want to think about how people would’ve defined the Chris Kent era if it happened right now lmao.
    I've never liked the dismissal of his Kal-El persona as "what I do," I think the reality is he's a blend of both, but I will say I do feel he probably leans closer to Clark considering how I feel regarding nature vs. nurture.

    The Cuck Kent thing is just a juvenile joke I could do without, same with all the "poor Clark" nonsense. If he's going to be the butt of jokes again, I'd prefer it's regarding his actions as opposed to some perceived thing having happened upon his life. This is to say nothing of "Lois kissing her baby daddy despite being married to Kent, the scandal!!"

    I just don't see this status quo leading to a place that puts Clark, Superman or Lois in a good place publicly and sounds like Didio's "their personal life must be trash or it's not heroic" edict which I fundamentally disagree with.

    I'm fine with people thinking Clark's a dweeb, but not really that Lois is someone who cheats on her husband with an old flame, regardless of accuracy. Let's not have the DCU demonizing their loudest female voice (other than Diana) for truth and ethics as some hypocrite.

    Pretty sure we're going to step-dad Clark, so what can you do? Hope for a retcon, I guess. The kiss soured the potential for me because I don't see how it's going to be positive for Lois.

  5. #95
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I'm fine with people thinking Clark's a dweeb, but not really that Lois is someone who cheats on her husband with an old flame, regardless of accuracy. Let's not have the DCU demonizing their loudest female voice (other than Diana) for truth and ethics as some hypocrite.

    Pretty sure we're going to step-dad Clark, so what can you do? Hope for a retcon, I guess. The kiss soured the potential for me because I don't see how it's going to be positive for Lois.
    Yeah, that's where I am, too. Depending on how this goes, I'm insanely pissed for Lois. Is this the kind of thing that she'd have to deal with in real life? Most likely, yes. Women face horrible double-standards every day. And maybe a commentary on that is what they're driving at; they seem to be doing that in the Lois Lane book. If they can give this a point in that sense and not have it be an ongoing thing, then great. It's definitely not something I want to see become a long-term or status quo thing, though.
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  6. #96
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    Yeah, that's where I am, too. Depending on how this goes, I'm insanely pissed for Lois. Is this the kind of thing that she'd have to deal with in real life? Most likely, yes. Women face horrible double-standards every day. And maybe a commentary on that is what they're driving at; they seem to be doing that in the Lois Lane book. If they can give this a point in that sense and not have it be an ongoing thing, then great. It's definitely not something I want to see become a long-term or status quo thing, though.
    Yeah, I know DC editorial doesn't like Lois (I have this deep dread that it's based in misogyny too) but she absolutely needs to beat this and not in the backhanded "well you'd let a man cheat on his spouse, so..." way that sounds like she's trying to make a statement but actually just makes her look even worse because she's doubling down on being awful and unapologetic. She needs to beat this. I don't care if it's a cop out. She's Lois Lane, the first lady of comics (or at least running alongside Diana in that respect). Step up or step out.

    If this ends with her using Lex's gift against him and in turn finding a way to resolve the kiss situation, that'd be great. Beat him at his own game and come out advantageous? That's exactly the kind of gambit I expect from Lois.

    Bendis let me down with the UP being Jon's idea and his getting credit for inspiring the Legion, but I'm still holding out hope that things will continue strong elsewhere. Action Comics has been consistently stronger between the two Super books but if we seriously waited 15 issues for "thanks for having a son, Supes" then... well the next arc better kill it or I'm dropping Superman. That's such a long con for what is essentially a wet fart at the end. And I've been a big proponent of Bendis on Superman thus far. I'm still loving Action and I'm interested in Legion, but he needs to show why this was a Superman story and not Superboy and the Legion's opening arc or set-up miniseries.

    The whole sword of Damacles hanging over the Lois-Clark-Superman situation, however, is the big kingmaker or dealbreaker for me. He's walking a tightrope that's either going to be magnificent or kill the book completely. We'll see. I've survived aged-up Jon and the Legion being taken from Superman, both of which hurt a lot, but I'm greatly enjoying Action and a lot of moments in Superman proper, but another straw may break this camel's back. Alternatively, it may be the moment I use to illustrate just how strong the run was conceptually for some people I talk comics with at work.

    "The mad son of a gun actually pulled this off!"

    Enthusiasm sells books. I got a coworker picking up Action with all my praise of the book and he got me reading Spencer's Spider-Man based on the same vibe. So far, I've not seen a ton of "this is great" from the UP situation, more of either denial ("nope, I'm not buying this"), bargaining ("hey, if you read into this, it's not so bad") and so far I've just accepted it ("not what I want, but let's see what happens because of it"). All are valid responses, but I've not seen any real hype over this development for Clark or Jon and that's not a good sign.

    Sorry, I generally try to be positive (especially on Bendis' Superman, because again, I'm liking a lot of what he's done) but I'm starting to worry if he can't stick this landing. It's starting to feel like the usual song and dance of "I want to write about all this other stuff around Superman" but, mercifully, he likes Clark too.
    Last edited by Robanker; 08-22-2019 at 01:13 AM.

  7. #97
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Oh, trust me - you're preaching to the choir, and we're singing harmony on the same page. lol

    All of that's exactly how I feel. As with every other run of Superman where it's existed, the marriage is the linchpin. They screw that up, and I'm gone.

    This is where I feel that having Bendis co-writing with someone else doing main story/plot ideas (yes of course i'd suggest Jurgens here, have you all *met* me?? LOL) and Bendis on exact dialogue (especially for Superman) and idea suggestion would be a knock out of the park.
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  8. #98
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    So I read the entire book today. I actually enjoyed it more than I thought. Reis kills it in a few scenes. The Rogol Zaar fight is great until the end... again. But it’s better than I expected. Still needs to just f’n be over but I found it works better than expected. I found some of the Jor El stuff far more frustrating.

    I picked up Supergirl as well, but haven’t read it yet. I expect it clears up a few scenes in Superman that kinda just happen.
    Last edited by Yoda; 08-21-2019 at 09:42 PM. Reason: The

  9. #99
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Enthusiasm sells books. I got a coworker picking up Action with all my praise of the book and he got me reading Spencer's Spider-Man based on the same vibe. So far, I've not seen a ton of "this is great" from the UP situation, more of either denial ("nope, I'm not buying this"), bargaining ("hey, if you read into this, it's not so bad") and so far I've just accepted it ("not what I want, but let's see what happens because of it"). All are valid responses, but I've not seen any real hype over this development for Clark or Jon and that's not a good sign.
    I've made my disappointment over Jon getting credit for the UP very clear over the last few days, but in regard to the bolded.....I wouldn't get too worried at this point. The Legion and all the mythology around them aren't exactly high profile IP's anymore. Most of us who give a damn are older fans, and were never likely to get behind these Jon-centric choices Bendis is making until/unless the story proves that he knows what he's doing, which'll take some time. I didn't expect this particular aspect of Bendis' story to get much positive hype no matter what it did, the Legion just isn't a big enough deal anymore.

    Now, in six months once we've had a chance to see how this will play out.....if there's no positive hype by then, yeah, it'll be a problem (for the Legion far more so than Clark). But right now? Everyone who cares about the Legion is pissed at Clark not getting the credit for anything. And everyone else hasn't had a chance to really be sold on the future.
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  10. #100
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Fair point there. I'd go even further and say that, while this is a disappointing fact in its own right, a lack of hype for comics period is a thing these days, let alone a Superman direction. This is something even affecting the main cash cow Batman as well. I mean, look at SDCC this year. Comics were virtually ignored. The only thing that gets the comic hype going these days is a relaunch, and I wonder how long even that will work.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 08-22-2019 at 09:08 PM.
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  11. #101
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Fair point there. I'd go even further and say that, while this is a disappointing fact in its own right, a lack of hype for comics period is a thing these days, let along a Superman direction. This is something even affecting the main cash cow Batman as well. I mean, look at SDCC this year. Comics were virtually ignored. The only thing that gets the comic hype going these days is a relaunch, and I wonder how long even that will work.
    To be honest, the lack of interest on fan's parts is something DC should feel responsible for. Killing a beloved character for shock value doesn't matter anymore. It just takes them off the table for a while and makes people lose interest. Hyping up a wedding only not to deliver doesn't build anticipation, it breeds apathy for the medium. You got suckered, you aren't going to keep going back to the well. I don't know why DC thinks mangling characters (Dick, Wally), killing them (too soon to articulate) and hyping and overselling units for an event that is a farce (the Batman/Catwoman wedding) are designed to do anything but shed readership. It reminds me of when Kelly Sue DeConnick said on word balloon that editors are still convinced love triangles sell massive units. I swear, they're stuck in early 90s soap opera mode and it's murdering the interest of young readers expecting things to actually happen.

    With respect to Clark, I will say that at the very least, Bendis is pushing things forward in some direction. Plates aren't spinning.

  12. #102
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    DC is definitely in a weak spot now while Marvel ascends thanks in part to Hickman. Frankly a lot of choices DC has made have been incredibly stupid. Ric for example is just ******* idiotic and brain-dead (no pun intended). Really feel like DC has not done a good job cultivating new talent, Marvel has a killer’s row of upcoming writers while Jurgens is still plodding along on Batman Beyond and Lobdell is getting new books. What was the point of all those DC Writer’s Workshops if they weren’t going to offer any of them spots on books? And of course Doomsday Clock taking forever hasn’t helped the sense that DC is stuck running in place.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    DC is definitely in a weak spot now while Marvel ascends thanks in part to Hickman. Frankly a lot of choices DC has made have been incredibly stupid. Ric for example is just ******* idiotic and brain-dead (no pun intended). Really feel like DC has not done a good job cultivating new talent, Marvel has a killer’s row of upcoming writers while Jurgens is still plodding along on Batman Beyond and Lobdell is getting new books. What was the point of all those DC Writer’s Workshops if they weren’t going to offer any of them spots on books? And of course Doomsday Clock taking forever hasn’t helped the sense that DC is stuck running in place.
    That's true. There hasn't been much cultivation of new talent on the ongoing front. More the old stand-bys and people they pouched from Marvel. Feels like Joshua Williamson is the closest they have to new talent.
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  14. #104
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    That's true. There hasn't been much cultivation of new talent on the ongoing front. More the old stand-bys and people they pouched from Marvel. Feels like Joshua Williamson is the closest they have to new talent.
    Some of the upcoming Year of the Villain one shots seem to have new people. Mark Russel feels like he’s starting to dip his toe in more mainstream books. Hopefully we’ll get some new blood there. And every month I pray that the Ric storyline finally ends.

  15. #105
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    The Ric thing astounds me for being greenlit. All this for a name? If you wanted to try and get a different nickname to catch on other than Dick, just have him start going by that name of his own volition, see what happens. Making it a dumb amnesia story where he goes "dark" (not like there's already two other dark Robins) was really tone-deaf.
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