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  1. #76
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I've come back from the ledge on this, but I still have a nagging feeling this whole kiss/Jon thing is intended to be a softer "Superman Disassembled" to get to a kinda have your cake and eat it too status quo with Lois & Clark publicly no longer an item and but still together either as Superman and Superman's Girlfriend Lois Lane or putting the whole relationship in the category of their "secret" that they have to keep.

    But I'm with Superlad in that I think the resolution to this is far more likely with Clark as a stepdad to Superman and Lois' kid. It's just that Superman's weekends with the kid involve intergalactic or time travel. The above seems a little to unseemly for Superman's status quo. Even for DC Comics under Didio and Lee.
    Yeah I’m starting to come around to thinking that “Clark is Jon’s stepdad” will indeed be the Endgame. Honestly it’s a very Silver Age status quo so I’m kind of interested in it.

  2. #77
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G-Man27 View Post
    Ok, I can see where everyone is coming from, but let's take a step back. The whole Jon is the inspiration for the United Planets comes from the Legion, a team from the Future. It's been a long established fact that the further you go into the future, the more history gets muddled. All this really does is establish is that by the Legion's time Jon is considered, whether by the world or just the Legion, as the inspiration for their way of life. This does not take away from the fact that in the present, it is Superman who is chosen to lead the United Planets as President. I can imagine that people that far in the future will have a lot of different opinions on this era than we do now.
    I had an alternate thought, actually: that most people in the future think of Superman as the reason for all of it - but the Legion know the idea came from Jon (and he's their age, even better) so they want to hang out with him. All the while, the idea that Superman was the genesis of it all (and he is, as far as execution goes) is so pervasive that nobody really buys that it came from his son Jon... thereby allowing both to exist. It might also set up some drama in that the LoSH want Jon to have credit he'll never get - though I hate stories like that, so who knows. lol
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  3. #78
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Because we'd already found out that Superman was losing both his tangible relationship with the Legion as friends and his adventures with them, then we found out that he was also losing being the direct inspiration for the Legion (that being confirmed as being branched out as an all-DCU-heroes-inspiration). It looking like Superman was establishing the UP in this continuity would've been a small consolation. Some connection. So revealing that even that is Jon's idea, at least as far as the Legion is concerned, leaves Superman with nothing. Everything about this classic dynamic has been mined away and given to others with nothing new to connect him individually to them. So its not so much in specific that he's not the founder of the UP, its that he isn't on top of the two classic elements we already knew he was losing to his son.
    I think the biggest reason I'm pissed is that, since Bendis came on there's been this idea that he was planning on really elevating Superman's character in-universe. Superman gets a lot of lip service, but his actual importance to the world isn't what it used to be. Bendis seemed, to me anyway, like he was planning to fix that.

    The return of the Legion, Clark's role in their creation, that's all part of it. And we've been talking about that stuff in regards to Bendis much longer than we've had any actual confirmation about it. And the whole "Clark starts the UP" thing and "Superman; President of Earth" are all things that, I thought, were being aimed at making Superman a big(ger) deal again. Now, the Legion going to Jon.....okay, I get it. I see Bendis' logic and he's got a good point there. If I wasn't as biased towards Clark as I am I might agree with his decision. But I was tentatively willing to risk lose that if it meant Clark got to be Earth Prez and found the UP. Well, now we've partially lost one of those things, since Jon is getting the credit (at least from the Legion) for creating the United Planets.

    I thought, and this is on me for having assumptions, but I thought we were getting the Legion, the UP, and Earth Prez, which would have been one hell of a combo for Superman's accomplishments and legend. Instead we lost the Legion, have lost, at least partially, the founding of the UP (which was a really cool new idea build solidly on the past), and I'm just wondering if anyone at all will end up giving Clark credit for bringing the idea to the table, whether Clark will have anything to do with building the UP after all, and whether he'll even get to be Earth Prez in truth, or whether it'll just be a temporary holding position until someone else is ready to take it from him, or if it'll even happen at all.
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  4. #79
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Same. I really thought in the beginning that steps were being made to put that focus on the man. Not on elements of his mythos taken for others, but Superman himself. Now I don't know what to think. I'm seeing familiar patterns. In Superman, the Legion's been ripped from him and parceled out. In Action, there's the growing Leviathan importance except now as more time passes it seems to veering more into Bat family and detective character territory. Lois has taken a center stage there, which I do not have any ill feelings toward and she's treated worse than Superman on the reg, but it seems it might be slipping away as a Superman focus. Maybe I'm way off there in the end. But yeah, familiar patterns.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 08-20-2019 at 05:15 PM.
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  5. #80
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Same. I really thought in the beginning that steps were being made to put that focus on the man. Not on elements of his mythos taken for others, but Superman himself. Now I don't know what to think. I'm seeing familiar patterns. In Superman, the Legion's been ripped from him and parceled out. In Action, there's the growing Leviathan importance except now as more time passes it seems to veering more into Bat family and detective character territory. Lois has taken a center stage there, which I do not have any ill feelings toward and she's treated worse than Superman on the reg, but it seems it might be slipping away as a Superman focus. Maybe I'm way off there in the end. But yeah, familiar patterns.
    Well to be fair, Leviathan is a Batman related organization, and Bendis is saving the upcoming “Invisible War” as the big story that will have a big impact on Superman according to his Instagram. Really wish Romita Jr. wasn’t drawing it though but still.

  6. #81
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Same. I really thought in the beginning that steps were being made to put that focus on the man. Not on elements of his mythos taken for others, but Superman himself. Now I don't know what to think. I'm seeing familiar patterns. In Superman, the Legion's been ripped from him and parceled out. In Action, there's the growing Leviathan importance except now as more time passes it seems to veering more into Bat family and detective character territory. Lois has taken a center stage there, which I do not have any ill feelings toward and she's treated worse than Superman on the reg, but it seems it might be slipping away as a Superman focus. Maybe I'm way off there in the end. But yeah, familiar patterns.
    I know. I mean, I dont want to be one of those grumpy cynical old bastard fans, but recent developments have definitely shaken my faith in Bendis putting Superman back into Superman and now I'm worried that instead of getting a writer with the clout to fix Superman, we ended up getting more of the same and it just took a little longer for us to get there.

    But at the same time, I got no issue with Event Leviathan not putting Clark in the focus. That was always a DCU-wide Event using a organization (or at least a name) that came from Gotham, and I'm satisfied with the fact that it all started in Clark's books, that Lois is having a big role to play, and isn't Clark supposed to be coming back into the story in the next issue (or one that just came out if I missed it)? I'd *like* Clark to be more front-and-center here, but I'm still satisfied with his involvement thus far, for what Event Leviathan is supposed to be. If he still has a role to play and is there at the end I'll call it a win.

    The Legion stuff however, is *Clark's* playground. And given what we seem to be losing, Bendis better have something good up his sleeve if we're going to walk out of this with a Superman who hasn't lost more than he's gained. That, or we're all going to have to be wrong about what appears to be happening, somehow.

    I suppose.....if nothing else, even if the character does end up losing more elements and concepts, Bendis still at least gets Clark's voice right, and that's more than we can say for most writers these days.
    Last edited by Ascended; 08-20-2019 at 06:19 PM.
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  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Well to be fair, Leviathan is a Batman related organization, and Bendis is saving the upcoming “Invisible War” as the big story that will have a big impact on Superman according to his Instagram. Really wish Romita Jr. wasn’t drawing it though but still.
    Invisible War has Romita art? *Groan* I was looking forward to that. Well, hopefully it will still be good.
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  8. #83
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Invisible War has Romita art? *Groan* I was looking forward to that. Well, hopefully it will still be good.
    Yeah I kind of feel the same way. I don’t think the higher ups realize that people don’t really view Romita Jr. as a good artist anymore. That said I did enjoy his Silencer work, and he can draw some pretty great action scenes. So I’m going to give him a chance, and there will be other artists there too. But Bendis has been partly buoyed by the great artists he’s had and I would not be surprised if he took a hit in sales over Romita Jr. drawing.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Yeah I kind of feel the same way. I don’t think the higher ups realize that people don’t really view Romita Jr. as a good artist anymore. That said I did enjoy his Silencer work, and he can draw some pretty great action scenes. So I’m going to give him a chance, and there will be other artists there too. But Bendis has been partly buoyed by the great artists he’s had and I would not be surprised if he took a hit in sales over Romita Jr. drawing.
    Yeah, all I'm thinking about now is the giant heads and weird leg joints of Superman: Year One. *Shudders*
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  10. #85
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam View Post
    Yeah, all I'm thinking about now is the giant heads and weird leg joints of Superman: Year One. *Shudders*
    Someone once referred to Cheung as “Romita Jr. but good” and after taking a moment to think about it I’d have to agree. Cheung’s art is pretty similar in a lot of ways but it feels more polished while Romita is way rougher, albeit intentionally so. However that roughness I think does have its uses, it worked great on JMS ASM. But for the DCU it really hasn’t done much for me. But I will say that a gang war feels like the perfect Superman storyline for Romita Jr. art. So I’ll give him a shot.

  11. #86
    Superfan Through The Ages BBally's Avatar
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    So DC removes Superman's influence on the Legion... AGAIN.


    ​you know what screw this, i'm going back to reading the Popeye and Dick Tracy strips.
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  12. #87
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Yeah Iím starting to come around to thinking that ďClark is Jonís stepdadĒ will indeed be the Endgame. Honestly itís a very Silver Age status quo so Iím kind of interested in it.
    You know, even though this is the best possible resolution to the situation being presented, I still don't care for it. It seems too easy for abuse. I'm at this point where I want them to find a way to convince everyone it was a frame-up. Would it be a cop-out? Absolutely, but frankly so was how Jon's age up was handled so I'm willing to let one resolve something I don't like since one already caused something I don't like. I can do without "Cuck Kent" jokes from Lombard (because you know he'll assume she and Superman still knock boots) and "Poor Clark" from Cat Grant or something. Much like Spider-Man being forever perceived as a kid loser being inaccurate, I think Clark is allowed to grow past "that schmuck with the glasses who sometimes looks like Superman."

    I guess I've always felt that it's fine if Jon also looks like Superboy because I don't much care for why nobody can figure out he's Superman; it's the conceit of the narrative. If everything had to make complete internal logic and hold up to extreme scrutiny, I'd be reading scientific journals, not escapism where a man can fly at light speed and then pluck someone from freefall and everything be fine. I suspend a certain amount of disbelief per book I read and Superman gets a healthy share. I don't understand why superhero marriages have to be so goddamned complicated. You mean to tell me that being a dad and also Earth's greatest champion who every conqueror in the multiverse wants a piece of isn't enough to tell stories with? Come on, Didio and co.

    As for Jon and the UP thing, I've made peace with it. It's going through in a manner I don't like, but I miss the Legion and it can always be retconned (likely by Johns, of course) that Clark had adventures with them and was their source of inspiration. What, gamechanging retcons in the Legion? Preposterous!
    Last edited by Robanker; 08-20-2019 at 10:48 PM.

  13. #88
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    You know, even though this is the best possible resolution to the situation being presented, I still don't care for it. It seems too easy for abuse. I'm at this point where I want them to find a way to convince everyone it was a frame-up. Would it be a cop-out? Absolutely, but frankly so was how Jon's age up was handled so I'm willing to let one resolve something I don't like since one already caused something I don't like.
    I feel ya.

    I don't understand why superhero marriages have to be so goddamned complicated. You mean to tell me that being a dad and also Earth's greatest champion who every conqueror in the multiverse wants a piece of isn't enough to tell stories with? Come on, Didio and co.
    I agree with you again.

    As for Jon and the UP thing, I've made peace with it.
    I first read that as "Jon's aged up and I've made peace with it" and was going to say "I have too, in the sense that I accept it, but am no long reading anything with him, because I'm just not interested." But I didn't quit because of that alone. It was a "last straw" moment after on top of several issues I already had.

    I do think the UP thing is bad, but I don't actually care about the Legion in and of themselves (never read them because lack of interest), and prefer Clark inspiring them, but never working with them (I think it works better for the broader narrative I prefer). This bothers me for making Superman less important in the greater DC mythos, and for making Jon a Clark-fill-in instead of giving him his own stories and supporting characters and identity. It'll probably be retconned again eventually, but how long it will take depends on how long Jon works with them in real-time. The next major reboot will be more likely to erase Jon now (or make him a further-along descendant instead of Superman's son), I think, as someone else said.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 08-21-2019 at 06:19 AM.

  14. #89
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    You know, even though this is the best possible resolution to the situation being presented, I still don't care for it. It seems too easy for abuse. I'm at this point where I want them to find a way to convince everyone it was a frame-up. Would it be a cop-out? Absolutely, but frankly so was how Jon's age up was handled so I'm willing to let one resolve something I don't like since one already caused something I don't like. I can do without "Cuck Kent" jokes from Lombard (because you know he'll assume she and Superman still knock boots) and "Poor Clark" from Cat Grant or something. Much like Spider-Man being forever perceived as a kid loser being inaccurate, I think Clark is allowed to grow past "that schmuck with the glasses who sometimes looks like Superman."

    I guess I've always felt that it's fine if Jon also looks like Superboy because I don't much care for why nobody can figure out he's Superman; it's the conceit of the narrative. If everything had to make complete internal logic and hold up to extreme scrutiny, I'd be reading scientific journals, not escapism where a man can fly at light speed and then pluck someone from freefall and everything be fine. I suspend a certain amount of disbelief per book I read and Superman gets a healthy share. I don't understand why superhero marriages have to be so goddamned complicated. You mean to tell me that being a dad and also Earth's greatest champion who every conqueror in the multiverse wants a piece of isn't enough to tell stories with? Come on, Didio and co.

    As for Jon and the UP thing, I've made peace with it. It's going through in a manner I don't like, but I miss the Legion and it can always be retconned (likely by Johns, of course) that Clark had adventures with them and was their source of inspiration. What, gamechanging retcons in the Legion? Preposterous!
    Well they did move beyond Clark being a schmuck during Post Crisis and really up until now. The Clark Kent and the Superman personas have slowly bled into one another to the point they don’t really differ that much. I guess the reason I’m ok with it is that the public looking at Clark as a loser is kind of the appeal of Supes. “Everyone thinks I suck but if they only knew what I really could do”. But if you’re someone who likes the “Superman is what I can do, Clark Kent is who I am” interpretation then I can totally sympathize with why you’d dislike this. It’s a return to the “Superman disguised as Clark Kent” incarnation in some ways. And I am interested in seeing a return to the more extreme differences between Clark and Superman once more.

    That said I find “Cuck Kent” hilarious, because of how people in the real world seem to take it seriously. Clark got “cucked” by Superman who is also... Clark? So people are calling him a cuck for sleeping with his wife and raising his own biological son? Lmao that doesn’t make any sense! God I don’t want to think about how people would’ve defined the Chris Kent era if it happened right now lmao.

  15. #90
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    That said I find “Cuck Kent” hilarious, because of how people in the real world seem to take it seriously. Clark got “cucked” by Superman who is also... Clark? So people are calling him a cuck for sleeping with his wife and raising his own biological son? Lmao that doesn’t make any sense! God I don’t want to think about how people would’ve defined the Chris Kent era if it happened right now lmao.
    I don't see much parallel. It's about wanting Clark - in his daily life - not to be treated with disdain. You like the "laughing up his sleeve" approach where Superman is pulling one over on everyone with his bumbling-Clark fake persona, so you're fine with it. Others (like myself) don't. You get that, I know, since you've expressed it well. But with this Jon setup, Clark is perceived by other-in-universe-characters as the guy likely conned into thinking Jon was his while his wife has been screwing someone else the entire time. And object of pity and ridicule (in-universe, not in real-world - and that's what Robanker said). So of course we don't like him being treated that way day in, day out. Or Lois being perceived as she would be.

    Chris was a straight-up relative-staying-with-them from the in-universe perspective and would have just morphed into adopted kid if he hadn't speed-aged. No disdain/pity from co-workers. It's his enemy's kid, sure, but he'd never are about that, even if he'd known from day one. And Zod didn't send Chris with the intent of adoption, did he? I thought it was just a convenient portal-opener. But it's been along while since I read those

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