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  1. #136
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Still not finding Rogal Zhar all that interesting, and I can't say I am a fan of Superman being replaced by his son as the focus of the LSH, either.

    It's strange. Action Comics is sooooo good. There's a lot of good stuff in Superman--I mean, you can't go wrong with Ivan Reis on art--but there's a lot of stuff that just has me scratching my head trying to figure out what Bendis is going for here.

  2. #137
    Astonishing Member Korath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Still not finding Rogal Zhar all that interesting, and I can't say I am a fan of Superman being replaced by his son as the focus of the LSH, either.

    It's strange. Action Comics is sooooo good. There's a lot of good stuff in Superman--I mean, you can't go wrong with Ivan Reis on art--but there's a lot of stuff that just has me scratching my head trying to figure out what Bendis is going for here.
    I actually like the scratching my head parts of his Superman run. I don't love his Superman (not like the New 52 version), but I definitively find him likeable and really intriguing. I can't help but wonder where he's going. Superlad has basically been confirmed right when it comes to Zaar's origins, if I understood the issue right, and I've obviously no problem with Jon getting the Legion ties, since I don't particularly like their concept when tied to Clark-as-Superboy. I guess the next arc will be the actual creation of the UP, with Superman doing the heavy-lifting, while Jor-El and Rogol await trial ?

  3. #138
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    The direction with Zaar, Jor-El, and Zod have me really pleased.

    I particularly loved Jor-El this issue. The dude planned that whole exchange and basically used Zod as a rage induced suicide bomber. It was brilliant. The looks that he and Zaar exchanged were great, and it had all the trappings of that implied history Zaar mentioned in Action 1000. Add to that Zaar's words while looking at Jor-El, it almost felt like they'd been playing their own private game of space chess.

    Looking forward to finally getting to THAT moment between Kal, Jor, and Zaar.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  4. #139
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    So, are they really going to make zaar jor el's son? If they are.does that make rogol zaar-el? What a weird family.can't wait for the cute fan-art of jon playing baseball with his favourite uncle zaar.

  5. #140
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    As I said long ago: I DEMAND fan art of Zaar El family holiday pictures featuring Zaar in a comfy sweater and a cup of coco.

    Make it so internet.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  6. #141
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    Whatever anyone's various thoughts about the new look Lightning Lad, I did have a laugh out loud that he's Yet Another Black Guy With Electricity Powers.
    Retro315 no more. Anonymity is so 2005.
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  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by K. Jones View Post
    Whatever anyone's various thoughts about the new look Lightning Lad, I did have a laugh out loud that he's Yet Another Black Guy With Electricity Powers.
    I wonder what's up with that. They could have used some other minority dude in Legion as a main character instead of just straight up make lightning lad black dude.

  8. #143
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    Rogol Zaar being Kryptonian is hardly shocking nor was it any impactful because people don't care that much for him.
    I wonder if this is like H'el, like a distant cousin kind of deal.

  9. #144
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Finally got the read the issue.

    Not bad. I like the cosmic chess game Jor is playing, we got some cool moments with Zod, overall a solid (if filler) issue.

    Still not cool with Jon getting credit for the UP. Not even from the Legion. Its bad enough the Legion is being pulled from Clark's origin but I am just not seeing the benefit to this at all on any level. Like, what does it gain the franchise here that Clark getting the credit wouldn't?

    But the issue was decent and I feel like it set things up fairly well going forward. I suspect we're gonna start getting some answers to the Jor-Zaar stuff soon and......as much as I doubt it, maybe.....just....maybe.....it'll make Zaar a slightly interesting villain.

    And at last we see what Bendis was getting at with the idea of Krypton being "murdered." I prefer my Krypton to be a cautionary tale, but using its destruction and the Circle to launch the UP is pretty damn solid.

    We'll see where things go and if Bendis can actually sell me on what he's doing here. I mean, I'm fine with Jon in the Legion (just not cool with it replacing Clark's tenure) and Clark founding the UP is fucking fantastic, as is the idea of him as President of Earth and Zod serving as a political frenemy. So far it feels like a "six of one, half dozen of the other" type of thing; Clark's gaining some really cool stuff but he's losing just as much. But when the story itself actually hits it might be better balanced than it seems.

    Action is still amazing at least; that's a pure win title in my opinion. Can't think of anything happening in that book I don't like.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  10. #145
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I prefer my Krypton to be a cautionary tale, but using its destruction and the Circle to launch the UP is pretty damn solid.
    Hmm you didn't think this was just as much of a cautionary tale? I mean, I'm just like you in that I had no interest in Krypton being "murdered" by some bad dude, and that being it. But this is caution to the whole galaxy. The backdoor dealings, the unwillingness to provide aid, or open up space for people in need. It's caution against the sort short sighted isolation and dirty non transparency we know all too well. And it's something that's now tangibly being fought against. It's something that hopefully Earth can get behind.

    I'm interested in your thoughts on it.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  11. #146
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Hmm you didn't think this was just as much of a cautionary tale? I mean, I'm just like you in that I had no interest in Krypton being "murdered" by some bad dude, and that being it. But this is caution to the whole galaxy. The backdoor dealings, the unwillingness to provide aid, or open up space for people in need. It's caution against the sort short sighted isolation and dirty non transparency we know all too well. And it's something that's now tangibly being fought against. It's something that hopefully Earth can get behind.

    I'm interested in your thoughts on it.
    Hmm, I suppose I should have been more specific (I was trying to write a short post for once! ). This new Circle thing *is* a cautionary tale. It's a tale about how back-room politics bite us all in the ass and lead to disaster. It's actually a very contemporary message and one that's nonpartisan (this being the "unity" saga it sorta needed to be).

    However, I feel like.....in a way this new tale of woe is thematically too big and too small in the wrong places. Which is an awful way of describing it but I'll try to explain myself.

    When Krypton's core is broken it's largely a commentary on pollution, climate change, abuse of resources, whatever the current era is calling this problem we've known about for decades. The moral of the story is "don't screw up your planet, dipshits, and listen to the people who're smarter than you about it!" That's a issue that impacts everyone equally, that everyone has an opinion on and a equal stake in. The "black politics" thing, well that's also a problem that has existed since forever (longer than climate change in fact) and it's something every nation contends with.....but does this message speak to readers in nations that're currently (mostly) stable, or dare I say even well run? I feel like this is a timeless message but more limited in who it appeals to. This will resonate better with Americans right now than it will, I dunno, the Swiss (or whoever has a semi-functioning government currently). And who this message appeals to the most is going to change as the political landscape changes. In a few years this might not resonate with Americans at all (unlikely of course, but we've had relative political stability before). So this new Circle thing feels a little smaller, yknow? A little less "apt for anyone, no matter where you live or when" right? At best this is now a call to stay vigilant even in times of political quality, and I dont think that's as strong a message or one that hits everyone equally.

    And at the same time, this has turned the death of a people into a massive, galactic-wide conspiracy. Both ideas are so....big, so alien to us, that we cannot truly imagine them. But we can imagine the destruction of our planet (by our own misguided hands) a lot easier and clearer than we can multiple alien races getting together in a back room to plot. So it's a little too "big" here; harder to relate to in a direct way. I love my cosmic Superman, but the core should always be found in human concerns.

    The whole thing still works, don't get me wrong, and I love how Bendis is tying this into the formation of the UP. Krypton's the crime that creates real, lasting change. That's cool as hell. I just dont think this is as.....elegant.....as the previous version of Krypton's destruction.
    Last edited by Ascended; 09-01-2019 at 06:31 PM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  12. #147
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    However, I feel like.....in a way this new tale of woe is thematically too big and too small in the wrong places. Which is an awful way of describing it but I'll try to explain myself.
    Fascinating. You're not wrong on the simple and universal nature of the OG origin, but I'd argue that you're not quite giving the new one its due. It's not just backdoor politics. It's also the very, very simple idea of community beyond borders. In issue 13, even when the intimidate threat is just Jor-El foretelling the natural doom of Krypton, he asks members of the circle to make room for Kryptonian refugees in their sectors of space, but he is refused in part because of the lack of community between planets. I think the idea speaks to all people because it's the idea of being only as strong as our weakest link, and upholding basic human compassion first and foremost. No matter how well off any nation in the real world is, we're still sitting largely comfortable while countless other nations are exploited or run over. And we, as a collective, continue to sit by while our planet runs itself dry under our collective foot. It's the very basic idea of unity, and acknowledging that we aren't a bunch of fractured nations and races, but rather a collective that shares this space.

    I think this idea will always need to be reinforced specifically because we all like to come up with more and more ways to sections ourselves off.

    And at the same time, this has turned the death of a people into a massive, galactic-wide conspiracy. Both ideas are so....big, so alien to us, that we cannot truly imagine them.
    See now, that's why I think it was particularly smart to frame this like a "cold case" that uncovers a whole conspiracy. That takes what is most assuredly a cosmic story and it relates it down to watching a shown on Investigation Discovery. Krypton may as well be a dead body, and the Circle conspiracy may as well be any government scandal you can think of. Bendis was also smart to make allusions to things refugees, colonizing, and boarder politics. These are very relate to the real world, but more relevantly, they relate back to and expound on the basic wording of Superman origin. He's OG origin famously making a point to call him an immigrant even though conceptually his origin is galactic in nature.

    I just dont think this is as.....elegant.....as the previous version of Krypton's destruction.
    I don't think I'll ever argue the original destruction is simpler and more elegant. It just is. But, and I say this as someone who loves it for what it is, to what functional end is it that? In a story sense, it's very rare that it's ever cited as a motivation of Clark's. It's usually just an idea to be mourned, and the ever present battle against complacency. And that in and of itself is great, but I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't mind more importance placed on it. I don't know about you, but I've grown tired of people saying that Krypton is just the place where his powers come from, or that it has nothing to do with why he fights. Those both common opinions that I hear. This creates a far more tangible line that where results and progress can be measured , and Superman can be active about it. Again, I'm not arguing the elegance of the standard origin. Never. I'm just saying that, likely in part by design, it's very easy to overlook as an aspect of the character, and I think that's a shame.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  13. #148
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Fascinating. You're not wrong on the simple and universal nature of the OG origin, but I'd argue that you're not quite giving the new one its due.
    I might not be. I mean, the dust hasn't even settled on this new angle yet while the OG version has years behind it. We'll see where it goes and how it plays out.

    I think this idea will always need to be reinforced specifically because we all like to come up with more and more ways to sections ourselves off.
    I think you might be right, but that may very well result in needing to tweak and adjust the lines on this new version to fit the times. Granted, the old version got similar treatment here and there but I suspect this new take will require more, more often. I could be wrong of course, time will tell. Ultimately this new thing boils down to politics, and that's a constantly shifting landscape while climate change is climate change and the only thing that really changes is the term/s we attach to it.

    See now, that's why I think it was particularly smart to frame this like a "cold case" that uncovers a whole conspiracy. That takes what is most assuredly a cosmic story and it relates it down to watching a shown on Investigation Discovery.
    And its cool as hell, dont get me wrong. But I like how the OG version is all "this is everyone's problem and we're all responsible for fixing it" while this new thing is "this is the problem with the 'Lex Luthors' of the galaxy, so vote smart!" The OG feels more.....universal....I guess?

    I don't think I'll ever argue the original destruction is simpler and more elegant. It just is. But, and I say this as someone who loves it for what it is, to what functional end is it that?
    I also wouldnt mind more importance being put on Krypton's destruction; it folds nicely with the idea of Clark as "space royalty." But does this new take truly offer greater functionality? We can cite it for the founding of the UP which is definitely a step up, but is that going to actually result in any greater cited relevance in-story? Originally Krypton's death was something that inspired and motivated Clark largely (bot not always) through subtext (his idiot people killed his homeworld; he won't let us make the same mistake) but now is it going to be more than a rarely-mentioned reason for the UP forming? Once the UP is up and running, is the purpose for it's founding going to be all that important? And even if it is, how often is Krypton going to be mentioned here, or will it just be "The UP was formed because Superman is awesome and said we should do it"?

    It very well might end up elevating Krypton within the text itself. Like I said, this is new territory and we don't know how it'll play out or how it'll be utilized in the future. I'm not against this or anything, but I do like things in Clark's mythos to be as thematically elegant as possible. But Bendis definitely has my interest and I'm very curious to see how it unfolds.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  14. #149
    THE MARK OF MY DIGNITY Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    while this new thing is "this is the problem with the 'Lex Luthors' of the galaxy, so vote smart!" The OG feels more.....universal....I guess?
    I'd argue that corrupt people in power is just as universal an idea, and is more pointedly a Superman idea specifically than climate change. I mean, even overlooking how this functions as a pretty strong thematic sequel Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster's politically charged original idea, it's also also just the literal main idea of Superman conceptual across all media and incarnations: how do those in power use that power. So I gotta disagree, man.

    But does this new take truly offer greater functionality? We can cite it for the founding of the UP which is definitely a step up, but is that going to actually result in any greater cited relevance in-story?
    From the looks of it, yeah, I'd say so. The thing is, a direct parallel is being presented between Jor-El and Clark. Bendis makes the whole thing overtly textual in issue 13 when Jor-El compares what Clark does with the JL to what he did with the Circle. Now that parallel is growing, and Clark is doing the total opposite of what Jor-El did. It's out in the open, and directly because of all of this Clark is getting involved to a degree never seen before. In issue 14 itself Superman himself directly cite what happened with Krypton as the thing that gets all this underway.

    Not to mention how this new common ground is seems to be shifting Zod's character.

    Originally Krypton's death was something that inspired and motivated Clark largely (bot not always) through subtext (his idiot people killed his homeworld; he won't let us make the same mistake
    But then he was. Superman wasn't actively fighting the mistakes that lead to Krypton's destruction. He punched robots mainly, gained a lot of good will, and sort of nebulously inspired. The idea was also the hope that if Earth ever reached a similar situation, all of the inspiring that Superman did would have Earth avoid it. But outside of the very direct abnormal threats that could've blown the world up, he historically let the deep sh!t be.

    Again, there's a beauty to this idea. There's a music here, but there's no tangible functionality that isn't already reached by him being a good dude and the Kents' being good parents. Siegel and Shuster didn't even have learn about Krypton or its destruction till he was well into being Superman. The Post-Crisis version doesn't have him learn things till months into him being Superman. The modern era has Krypton as primarily just a source of sorrow and somber remembrance that provides texture to his back story. But the nuts and bolts, and function of his mission is 100% built from Clark just being a good dude and the Kents' teachings.

    but now is it going to be more than a rarely-mentioned reason for the UP forming? Once the UP is up and running, is the purpose for it's founding going to be all that important? And even if it is, how often is Krypton going to be mentioned here, or will it just be "The UP was formed because Superman is awesome and said we should do it"?
    But it won't need to be mentioned as much because you can draw the direct line from it to the UP. In the modern era you couldn't do the same with the past version. It was incidental. It was icing on top of a mission that Clark was already set up to do. But this is shown, in the text, to be something that Clark wouldn't have thought to do in a million years had it not been for finding out about how Krypton went. Krypton was a symptom of a systemic rot on a galactic scale, and Superman's tackling it.

    I do like things in Clark's mythos to be as thematically elegant as possible.
    Same. This just hits all the right boxes for Superman, imo. The "cold case" stuff is the sort of clever re imagining of an old concept that tip my hat off to guys like Morrison for doing (it's how Damian was born and Batman inc was made), and the moving of the myth forward is invaluable to me.
    "Mark my words! This drill will open a hole in the universe. And that hole will become a path for those that follow after us. The dreams of those who have fallen. The hopes of those who will follow. Those two sets of dreams weave together into a double helix, drilling a path towards tomorrow. THAT's Tengen Toppa! THAT'S Gurren Lagann! MY DRILL IS THE DRILL THAT CREATES THE HEAVENS!" - The Digger

    We walk on the path to Secher Nbiw. Though hard fought, we walk the Golden Path.

  15. #150
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I'd argue that corrupt people in power is just as universal an idea, and is more pointedly a Superman idea specifically than climate change. I mean, even overlooking how this functions as a pretty strong thematic sequel Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster's politically charged original idea, it's also also just the literal main idea of Superman conceptual across all media and incarnations: how do those in power use that power. So I gotta disagree, man.
    No worries man. And....I dont even think we disagree as much as I'm just more wary of how this'll play out long-term than you are. It's not like I'm against this idea, I just think the older version is more elegant (which you agree with). So I think we're on roughly the same page, I'm just a more cynical bastard than you are.

    From the looks of it, yeah, I'd say so.
    It's definitely more relevant right now. But right now is just the start of the story. Will this matter in a more direct way five-ten years from now? Sure you can draw a direct line from Krypton to the UP, and that's cool as hell (it really, really is!) but that's not exactly fueling the fire. At most its the kindling, yknow? I'm not convinced Krypton itself is going to have any more import once the dust settles than it did as a "climate change" cautionary tale. It very well might, don't get me wrong, I'm just not convinced yet. We'll have to see how it gets spun out after this arc; because right now obviously Krypton's destruction is playing a huge factor in things.

    Not to mention how this new common ground is seems to be shifting Zod's character.
    Honestly the whole thing is worthwhile for Zod alone. The potential here, this Game of Thrones meets Star Wars, all wrapped up in a red cape? Hot damn it's like Bendis has been reading my comments about Superman and crafted a story specifically for me. I'm just not sold on this new death of Krypton being quantifiably "better" long term. Maybe you're right and it will be. Ask me in five years.

    Again, there's a beauty to this idea. There's a music here, but there's no tangible functionality that isn't already reached by him being a good dude and the Kents' being good parents.
    No, you're right that this does make Krypton more important. I just dont know if we'll actually *see* that on the page, or if it'll be something that's inferred and off-panel once this introductory story wraps. Like, five years from now when a new issue is explaining the UP is it gonna say "Krypton was destroyed by some douchebags, so Superman created the UP to stop that kinda BS from happening again!" or is it just gonna say "Superman founded the UP to encourage unity and cooperation between worlds"?

    But it won't need to be mentioned as much because you can draw the direct line from it to the UP.
    I think you can draw a fairly straight line from "lost his homeworld" to "does everything he can to protect his adopted world" too. It's not said outright in the text most of the time because it doesn't need to be said out loud; it's obvious.

    Same. This just hits all the right boxes for Superman, imo. The "cold case" stuff is the sort of clever re imagining of an old concept that tip my hat off to guys like Morrison for doing (it's how Damian was born and Batman inc was made), and the moving of the myth forward is invaluable to me.
    The stuff Bendis is doing to move the mythos forward.....dude deserves a medal for that effort. Been far too long since we had someone who wanted to do anything other than wallow in nostalgia, deconstruct everything, or reinvent everything. And I'm enjoying this new death of Krypton (I can't say that enough!) but I do find it less elegant.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

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