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  1. #31
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Super doesn't have to mean OP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    It doesn't but I think (in many cases) it should.
    Considering a lot of the threats, allies and places he visits in within his own mythos are as OP in their own way as he is (or more so), the possible OP-ness is kind of moot.

    The whole point of Superman is to see a Sci-fi Hercules-type hero overcome crazy insurmountable odds. Any approach that feels it needs to tone him down is doing it wrong.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Considering a lot of the threats, allies and places he visits in within his own mythos are as OP in their own way as he is (or more so), the possible OP-ness is kind of moot.

    The whole point of Superman is to see a Sci-fi Hercules-type hero overcome crazy insurmountable odds. Any approach that feels it needs to tone him down is doing it wrong.
    I don't know about that. I think one of the weaknesses in a lot of Superman stories is the disconnected nature of it. The guy started out fighting real world threats (gangsters, corrupt businessmen, foreign spies). These are things people have some concept of. Lifting cars, planes, even buildings or luxury liners are at least within a reader's frame of reference.

    Lifting weight that only exists as a string of zeroes after a number or battling beings that are abstract concepts is doing it wrong. It's turning him into either a vehicle to explore absurd extremes or a giant version of "Mine is bigger than yours" where if I say a Gazillion, someone says a Megazillion or Infinty+1 as if there is any perceptible difference.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    She's vulnerable to bullets now. And I don't know why you're bringing up her equipment when it's never helped her actually beat him.

    Superman has done things like holding up infinity, beating both Sampsom and Atlas in arm wrestling at the same time and singing Darkseid to death.

    Martian Manhunter has been toned down. He frequently has his powers stripped away or outright ignored.
    Thats not true:

    1. Wonder Woman:
    a) Wonder Woman has cut Superman several times with her sword (at least 2 times: Kingdom Come and normal Superman) and tiara (at least 1 time)
    b) Wonder Woman has (NEW52) a bulletproof armour which is resistant to even armor-piercing bullets
    c) Wonder Woman (NEW52) has also a god mode when she removes her bracelets
    d) Wonder Woman (Pre-Flashpoint) has also other equipment like the War Suit, Gauntlet of Atlas etc.
    e) We also have seen amped Version of her who are even stronger

    2. Martian Manhunter
    They might not use all of his powers, but he STILL HAS THEM.

  4. #34
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    I don't know about that. I think one of the weaknesses in a lot of Superman stories is the disconnected nature of it. The guy started out fighting real world threats (gangsters, corrupt businessmen, foreign spies). These are things people have some concept of. Lifting cars, planes, even buildings or luxury liners are at least within a reader's frame of reference.

    Lifting weight that only exists as a string of zeroes after a number or battling beings that are abstract concepts is doing it wrong. It's turning him into either a vehicle to explore absurd extremes or a giant version of "Mine is bigger than yours" where if I say a Gazillion, someone says a Megazillion or Infinty+1 as if there is any perceptible difference.
    It all depends on how the story is told, though. If people couldn't relate to fantastical concepts, Sci-fi wouldn't be a thing at all. Everything's relative; even the powers of a superhero.
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  5. #35

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    A character doesn't need his powerlevel reduced to tell entertaining stories. I disagree with that sentiment.
    One punch man says hi!!!

    When someone says he is too op and has too many powers. i think of this.

    This is what Superman is all about. We are not supposed to downgrade him. The others are supposed to upgrade themselves to meet him head to head.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 08-24-2019 at 10:56 PM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by JAK View Post
    It all depends on how the story is told, though. If people couldn't relate to fantastical concepts, Sci-fi wouldn't be a thing at all. Everything's relative; even the powers of a superhero.
    There is fantastical as in "Our ships travel faster than light" or "we have androids who can even simulate emotions". Then there are stories that are just based on how much higher the numbers are.

    Like I said I think Superman too often gets into "I just came up with an even higher stat measurement now let's add 1 on to it." To badly use a quote "Superman lifting Mt Everest is a feat, Superman lifting the weight of the universe is a statistic". At a certain point the guy who lifts mountains trading punches with the guy who shrugs off atom bombs is the same story as the guy who tosses cars battling the guy who laughs at bazooka shells. Same plot points just more bombastic descriptions.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    There is fantastical as in "Our ships travel faster than light" or "we have androids who can even simulate emotions". Then there are stories that are just based on how much higher the numbers are.

    Like I said I think Superman too often gets into "I just came up with an even higher stat measurement now let's add 1 on to it." To badly use a quote "Superman lifting Mt Everest is a feat, Superman lifting the weight of the universe is a statistic". At a certain point the guy who lifts mountains trading punches with the guy who shrugs off atom bombs is the same story as the guy who tosses cars battling the guy who laughs at bazooka shells. Same plot points just more bombastic descriptions.
    Have you heard of a series called dragon ball? People want to feel progress. Reading story about a guy who is stuck at a particular limit is boring. Sure, the beats are same but clark overcoming that limit is what people get excited for.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Masterff View Post
    Thats not true:

    1. Wonder Woman:
    a) Wonder Woman has cut Superman several times with her sword (at least 2 times: Kingdom Come and normal Superman) and tiara (at least 1 time)
    b) Wonder Woman has (NEW52) a bulletproof armour which is resistant to even armor-piercing bullets
    c) Wonder Woman (NEW52) has also a god mode when she removes her bracelets
    d) Wonder Woman (Pre-Flashpoint) has also other equipment like the War Suit, Gauntlet of Atlas etc.
    e) We also have seen amped Version of her who are even stronger
    Again, none of these have allowed her to beat Superman. They haven't even allowed her to beat Superman enemies like Doomsday or Mongul. She doesn't even have the god mode power anymore. She's already being toned down. Doing it any further will only make her even less powerful than Superman than she already is.

    2. Martian Manhunter
    They might not use all of his powers, but he STILL HAS THEM.
    If they don't appear, then he doesn't have them unless stated otherwise.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Have you heard of a series called dragon ball? People want to feel progress. Reading story about a guy who is stuck at a particular limit is boring. Sure, the beats are same but clark overcoming that limit is what people get excited for.
    I actually tried to watch Dragon Ball Z. I got bored when every character simply seemed to grow more powerful for no other reason than to be more powerful. It's stat bashing at it's finest. No growth of character just "now I hit you with a bigger blast". Like I said it was the equivalent of little kids making up imaginary numbers each bigger than the last in a game of "mine's bigger".

    Apply the same logic to Giant-man at Marvel. Oh a 50 foot man is impressive but let's take a Dragon Ball approach. Suddenly he is the size of a billion universes until he meets an opponent who is the size of 1.1 billion univeses and suddenly Giant man is growing to the size of 2 billion universes. Or the Flash having a battle with Reverse-Flash where they both are simultaneously at every point in the universe, so Barry goes Super-Saiyan and occupies every point in space an infinite number of times.

    I just don't get the point. After a certain level it's just numbers.
    Last edited by Jon Clark; 08-24-2019 at 11:36 PM.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Again, none of these have allowed her to beat Superman. They haven't even allowed her to beat Superman enemies like Doomsday or Mongul. She doesn't even have the god mode power anymore. She's already being toned down. Doing it any further will only make her even less powerful than Superman than she already is.



    If they don't appear, then he doesn't have them unless stated otherwise.
    Hasn't she beat clark using his own sense in post crisis continuity? I could have sworn wonder woman used superman's hearing sensitivity to beat him. But, you are right. Generally, in the older stories wonder woman got her hands injured punching mongul.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Have you heard of a series called dragon ball? People want to feel progress. Reading story about a guy who is stuck at a particular limit is boring. Sure, the beats are same but clark overcoming that limit is what people get excited for.
    This is as much of an inaccuracy as claiming no one wants to read about someone who gets more powerful. Arguably even more so given how much more popular and successful Spider-Man tends to be than Superman.

  12. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    I actually tried to watch Dragon Ball Z. I got bored when every character simply seemed to grow more powerful for no other reason than to be more powerful. It's stat bashing at it's finest. No growth of character just "now I hit you with a bigger blast".

    Apply the same logic to Giant-man at Marvel. Oh a 50 foot man is impressive but let's take a Dragon Ball approach. Suddenly he is the size of a billion universes until he meets an opponent who is the size of 1.1 billion univeses and suddenly Giant man is growing to the size of 2 billion universes. Or the Flash having a battle with Reverse-Flash where they both are simultaneously at every point in the universe, so Barry goes Super-Saiyan and occupies every point in space an infinite number of times.
    Well! It's not just dragon ball other shonen series use this troupe as well except for a few like fullmetal alchemist.but, yeah! Goku is bushido ethics to t. It's about repeating the same thing over and over in order to perfect it. Most of these mythical type characters need this limit Breaking thing. I guess it's part of our more base instinct. Think of going to the gym. If you are stuck at lifting the same amount of weight every single day you will get bored and quit. That 1pound weight you add helps make you feel overcame something.
    Ironically, one punch man is the story of man that has no limit to break anymore. He is the most powerful. There is no challenge or excitement. so he is bored out of his mind, depressed and is stuck that way. He is trying to find people that can actually make him feel anything.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Again, none of these have allowed her to beat Superman. They haven't even allowed her to beat Superman enemies like Doomsday or Mongul. She doesn't even have the god mode power anymore. She's already being toned down. Doing it any further will only make her even less powerful than Superman than she already is.



    If they don't appear, then he doesn't have them unless stated otherwise.
    Only because she didnt want to kill him.
    In Injustice Comic she defeated him for example.
    And the tiara cut Supermans throat which could have been lethal..

    Her sword even cut Doomsday and also injured Superman https://www.quora.com/Can-Wonder-Wom...upermans-hands (here you can also see the Tiara cutting Supermans Throat)

    So if she wouldnt want to kill him she could kill him with her sword.

  14. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    This is as much of an inaccuracy as claiming no one wants to read about someone who gets more powerful. Arguably even more so given how much more popular and successful Spider-Man tends to be than Superman.
    Spiderman isn't stuck at the same powerlevel. He has even became Captain Universe. Symbiote suit, spidey armour, iron spider suit..etc change his power levels as well. Not mention that time he grew two more pairs of arms or the time he mutated fully into a giant spider. He also upgrades his webbing and adapts to his opponent to make it feel like he is progressing. Just like other comics characters like batman.
    But, you are right. Getting stuck isn't all that bad. If there are other avenues to explore.
    But, getting stuck like ash ketchum would be not cool while others in your own universe improve would not be cool.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Well! It's not just dragon ball other shonen series use this troupe as well except for a few like fullmetal alchemist.but, yeah! Goku is bushido ethics to t. It's about repeating the same thing over and over in order to perfect it. Most of these mythical type characters need this limit Breaking thing. I guess it's part of our more base instinct. Think of going to the gym. If you are stuck at lifting the same amount of weight every single day you will get bored and quit. That 1pound weight you add helps make you feel overcame something.
    Ironically, one punch man is the story of man that has no limit to break anymore. He is the most powerful. There is no challenge or excitement. so he is bored out of his mind, depressed and is stuck that way. He is trying to find people that can actually make him feel anything.
    I can see that logic when you haven't pushed levels up to 11. I can buy Batman becoming a better fighter, or Green Arrow becoming a better archer, but Flash is already so fast that no one but him would notice if he got faster. And Aquaman can't breathe water better. And Superman (like one punch man) simply has no oractical items left to lift

    I mean do we really believe that humans can run as fast as the Flash? I'm not talking in comics, but in real life. That the guy who can run a 3.3 minute mile can train himself to run a 3 minute mile and then a 2 minute, 1 minute (i.e 60 mph)?

    Some of Superman's feats at point strike me as being as ludicrous as a solar system size Giant Man or as twisted as a discussion on what the Flash sees in a mirror if he is moving faster than light? And i'd rather read about Superman as a top of the heap hero but without all that stuff outside of any realistic scale.

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