Kryptonian powers need to be toned down a bit...

[Jon Clark]

So? Part of the problem is that the various characters DON'T have the same power level. Catwoman(or any other street character) vs Faora, Ursa, Livewire, Scorch, Fatality, Mongal, etc... It's like having Carol Ferris vs Star Sapphire. "normal" people fighting high-level superhumans isn't supposed to be fair or balanced.

Heck, in my book even superhumans fighting superhumans shouldn't be fair.

Robotman has superstrength and should be able to lift more than Batman. And Superman has superstrength and can lift more than Batman. But that does not tell you that Robotman is as strong as Superman. There should be a range of any given power where some superstrong characters can lift cars but not loaded semis, some can lift those semis but not multiple semis, and so on until you get to guys like Shazam/Wonder Woman/Superman.

[marhawkman]

Heck, in my book even superhumans fighting superhumans shouldn't be fair.

Robotman has superstrength and should be able to lift more than Batman. And Superman has superstrength and can lift more than Batman. But that does not tell you that Robotman is as strong as Superman. There should be a range of any given power where some superstrong characters can lift cars but not loaded semis, some can lift those semis but not multiple semis, and so on until you get to guys like Shazam/Wonder Woman/Superman.

Yeah it's why Marvel used to have the "class" system. it was basically away of showing how much weight a super-strong character could lift. Spiderman can wipe the floor with normal guys, but he's no match for the Hulk in brute strength.

Similarly, Bane is far above normal humans in physical strength, but he's not even able to throw cars.

[Stick Figure]

My Superman knowledge is limited to the recent comics and the Cavill movies. I can’t stand most older pre-1990 comics so don’t know much about Superman moving at light speed or moving planets. I don’t get why Superman has to be as powerful as Wonder Woman or Marian Manhunter. I mean he’s plenty powerful so who cares if he’s not the fastest or strongest? It would be nice to see him beaten down more and have rally. People are talking about him flying into the sun. That to me is way too much. I’m mostly interested in good stories so the power thing isn’t that important but I think his powers should define him.

[Jim Kelly]

So if this Man of Steel is only medium level relative to other super-heroes in action, why does this guy get the Superman name? You would think one of the other heroes would be called Superman, like Spectre, Captain Atom, Martian Manhunter or Doctor Fate. That's not the most important reason for Superman to be super-powerful, but it is one of those nagging questions that's hard to resolve, if Superman is really just a mid-level jobber.

[SiegePerilous02]

My Superman knowledge is limited to the recent comics and the Cavill movies. I can’t stand most older pre-1990 comics so don’t know much about Superman moving at light speed or moving planets. I don’t get why Superman has to be as powerful as Wonder Woman or Marian Manhunter. I mean he’s plenty powerful so who cares if he’s not the fastest or strongest? It would be nice to see him beaten down more and have rally. People are talking about him flying into the sun. That to me is way too much. I’m mostly interested in good stories so the power thing isn’t that important but I think his powers should define him.

Neither WW or MM are stronger than him or even as strong as him, even though they are close. Why do they have to be as strong as him? Being the strongest is what he was designed to be, and what he has been for most of the publication history. There really isn't a reason to upend that except to cater to fans of other characters, and no decisions should be made for Superman related stories for the benefit of outside stories. All those other characters were created to cash in on the craze he started, some (like WW and Shazam) are way more successful than others and have plenty of their own stuff to offer. They can, and should, be close but there isn't a necessity to make them as strong. They can do comparable feats in their own stories where they are the heroes and he isn't present anyway.

There aren't any Superman fans who care that the Flash is faster, because everyone knows he should be. Or if there are, they are in a small minority.

[JAK]

My points are mostly based on this thread. If this was an ongoing issue with Superman I'd probably have stopped reading him long ago.

So, it's a criticism of fan power debates, then?

I have no problem with Superman having a high upper limit. I'm not even asking for some concrete defined limit. I'm just against the idea that there is no limit, not just on Superman but on any character. I'm not asking for Superman to be limited while Barry hits infinite speed. And I'm not saying I want Barry only able to run at Mach 1 or Superman straining to lift jetliners.

I just don't like the comic approach of "Hero meets limit, hero loses, hero comes back more powerful". I prefer Superman to figure a way to get around the wall of "infinitium" over Superman sundips and now can punch through "the hardest metal in the known universe". I prefer Firestorm has to work around his inability to transmute organic substances than he discovers it was a self-imposed thing. I'm jost not a fan of infinite perfectability where it is assumed that things just keep getting bigger and more powerful with no end in sight,

In most stories I've read where his power isn't enough, though, he doesn't just come back stronger. He either uses his head or steels his resolve. I wouldn't call that the same thing.

"Power creep" happen in a lot of things, though, with comics and mobile games being VERY good examples. It's not a Superman thing, it's an overall thing. But it always goes back and forth, in waves or stages. For me, personally, I like almost whatever power level a story has for him - as long as it's told well, and doesn't seem like it's keeping him at lower levels because the writer can't handle his powers. If that makes any sense.

[SiegePerilous02]

So, it's a criticism of fan power debates, then?



In most stories I've read where his power isn't enough, though, he doesn't just come back stronger. He either uses his head or steels his resolve. I wouldn't call that the same thing.

"Power creep" happen in a lot of things, though, with comics and mobile games being VERY good examples. It's not a Superman thing, it's an overall thing. But it always goes back and forth, in waves or stages. For me, personally, I like almost whatever power level a story has for him - as long as it's told well, and doesn't seem like it's keeping him at lower levels because the writer can't handle his powers. If that makes any sense.

Yes, if it becomes obvious a writer is toning him down to make their job easier for themselves and the rest of the story isn't strong enough to make up for it, I think they lack the imagination to write Superman and should write another character instead.

[JAK]

Yes, if it becomes obvious a writer is toning him down to make their job easier for themselves and the rest of the story isn't strong enough to make up for it, I think they lack the imagination to write Superman and should write another character instead.

Absolutely. And I find that happens a LOT - especially with TV/movie writers.

[Agent Z]

It worked for a time, but while he's never actually stopped being one of the biggest heroes, his brand has taken some big hits and has never been as popular as he used to be before they tried to "normalize" him, so I don't see it as a compelling argument that it's actually beneficial in the long run. It didn't help with the "he's too bland and perfect" complaints and Naive Farm Boy stuff, and actually made them worse. Nor a compelling argument for why Spider-Man enjoys more popularity at times as they were both the most popular heroes in their respective companies despite being very different.

I see a lot you can do with more grounded Golden Age power levels and with the crazy fantastical Supergod levels...however, YMMV, but in between? What is he doing that stands out from being just another generic flying brick? Doesn't help that they tried to "normalize" him to make him more relateable, and actually made him less of an Other and less unique. If he's in more grounded stories the threats he deals with shouldn't be ones he can solve with just his fists anyway at any power level, and the more fantastical ones haven't exactly benefited from lots of limitations put on them. The most popular and critically acclaimed evergreen story, All Star, is outside of the continuity where said limits are periodically being put on him.

Yes his popularity has taken hits but what evidence is there really that it is because of reduced power levels? His popularity actually was declining before that.

All Star is a story with a planned ending and he died and stayed dead there.

[marhawkman]

In most stories I've read where his power isn't enough, though, he doesn't just come back stronger. He either uses his head or steels his resolve. I wouldn't call that the same thing.

"Power creep" happen in a lot of things, though, with comics and mobile games being VERY good examples. It's not a Superman thing, it's an overall thing. But it always goes back and forth, in waves or stages. For me, personally, I like almost whatever power level a story has for him - as long as it's told well, and doesn't seem like it's keeping him at lower levels because the writer can't handle his powers. If that makes any sense.

I like it when it's not just a straight up fist fight. those can be fun, but it's boring when EVERY fight devolves into seeing who can punch harder.

Part of why I liked seeing him vs Scorch and Livewire, punching them isn't the best solution.

[Stanlos]

Never got into the "ability to move planets" level, but still should be impressive. For example: strength level for an average Kryptonian should have the 100 ton multiplier, when compared to an average humans. So, if the average bench press for a human is 100 pounds, your average Kryptonian should lift 100 tons. So Clark Kent, who could bench press 200 pounds as a human, could bench press 200 tons as a Kryptonian. Still impressive w/o being ridiculous. Solar dips would increase the rating, but those events should be rare. Opinions? Way off base?

I think that massive power levels are a natural part of the character's design and should be celebrated as such. You cannot escape that with Supes, WW, and Captain Marvel. It is an express foundational piece of the design

[JAK]

I like it when it's not just a straight up fist fight. those can be fun, but it's boring when EVERY fight devolves into seeing who can punch harder.

Part of why I liked seeing him vs Scorch and Livewire, punching them isn't the best solution.

Totally - stories where he has to use his head would be my favorite, too.

[Jon Clark]

So, it's a criticism of fan power debates, then?

Not the debate. It's the scale in the debate. Is Hercules or Thor stronger interesting debate. Hercules towing the island of Manhattan , you lose me. Batman Vs Captain America in hand to hand combat- could be fun. But stating that either man has greater skill in a variety of disciplines than people who are masters of that single discipline, you lose me again. And if your debate about Wonder Woman vs Superman vs Shazam begins to involve weights exceeding that of continents, surviving attacks that would level cities, or hitting individual electrons with a sword, heat vision beam or such- I'm off the train before that station.

In most stories I've read where his power isn't enough, though, he doesn't just come back stronger. He either uses his head or steels his resolve. I wouldn't call that the same thing.

Like I said Superman realizing he can fly over or tunnel under the indestructible wall but never actually break the wall is preferred to Superman returning with greater resolve to now punch through the wall. If it was a long arc and I honestly feel like Superman went through some ordeal I'm more accepting, but definitely not for the last issue blowout loss followed by this issue one-sided win we usually get.

"Power creep" happen in a lot of things, though, with comics and mobile games being VERY good examples. It's not a Superman thing, it's an overall thing. But it always goes back and forth, in waves or stages. For me, personally, I like almost whatever power level a story has for him - as long as it's told well, and doesn't seem like it's keeping him at lower levels because the writer can't handle his powers. If that makes any sense.

I hate power creep when it is simply done for it's own sake. I can buy that for a skill the character on Day One is far less skillful than he is several years in.

And I personally prefer a writer who balances his character out. Superman got more powerful, but his greater power comes with drawbacks as well as benefits. Maybe beyond a certain level he can perform more impressive feats but afterward he needs to recharge- so flying from here to Rann in an eyeblink means for the rest of the story his powers are weaker. Or Superman can build a wall at super-speed but the mortar might not hold (too wet or if heat visioned didn't set evenly). But we seem to more often get higher powers and nothing to offset it.

Best negative example to me was Morrison using Wally against a Martian. One of the reasons we got the speed force (or it's predecessor the super-speed aura) was to explain why Barry and Wally didn't burn up from friction or suffer other drawbacks of super-speed. Morrison wrote it to have his cake and eat it too. Wally according to him gains the infitie mass any other object does at light-speed but that mass only manifests to make him hit harder. To my thinking either the Speed Force prevents Wally from having infinite mass or ielse Wally has ALL the aspects of that mass and is a literal black hole when running that fast.

[The_Lurk]

As do I. He's Superman for Pete's sake, Superman, he's supposed to be OP. Heck, one could argue Sups is the originator of the OP hero trope. Being OP is an integral part of his character like the S symbol, his red, blue & yellow getup, being a survivor from a doomed alien world, growing up in small-town America, or becoming a big-city reporter.

Sums it up

Although it would be interesting to see Clark do some intense workout under the red sun to do even more Super stuff under the yellow one. But thats probably just copying when She-Hulk got her ass handed in an intergalactic boxing match because she goofed around in the gym as She-Hulk and later became super ripped (kinda like a good looking version of modern She-Hulk) when she took it serious as her unpowered alter ego.

She's weak against bullets. She nearly died from being shot in Priest's Justice League book. At least kryptonite isn't something your average bank robber will be carrying. Also, Batman does have a contingency against her as seen in Snyder's run.

Even if you ignore the fire weakness, Martian Manhunter has never been portrayed as more powerful than Superman. He's lucky if they're treated as equals.

Superman has powered through kryptonite and red sun radiation so often they might as well not be weaknesses. Toning down Diana and J'onn will only further widen the gap between them and Superman in the latter's favor.

She did? Thats weird; I remember her getting shot through in her own rebirth run by a sniper and all it did was making her angry; she immediately super speeded up to the sniper and crushed or bend her rifle IIRC.
edit: Not that I think any of them needed to be toned down.

[JAK]

Not the debate. It's the scale in the debate. Is Hercules or Thor stronger interesting debate. Hercules towing the island of Manhattan , you lose me. Batman Vs Captain America in hand to hand combat- could be fun. But stating that either man has greater skill in a variety of disciplines than people who are masters of that single discipline, you lose me again. And if your debate about Wonder Woman vs Superman vs Shazam begins to involve weights exceeding that of continents, surviving attacks that would level cities, or hitting individual electrons with a sword, heat vision beam or such- I'm off the train before that station.

That one, I think you'll never get back. It just is what it is. You can either accept it or you can't - because you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, and debates will generally use the most powerful iterations of any given character (minus certain external items, like the Infinity Gauntlet, etc).

Like I said Superman realizing he can fly over or tunnel under the indestructible wall but never actually break the wall is preferred to Superman returning with greater resolve to now punch through the wall. If it was a long arc and I honestly feel like Superman went through some ordeal I'm more accepting, but definitely not for the last issue blowout loss followed by this issue one-sided win we usually get.

It's never usually that simple, though - a wall he thought was indestructible has a single weak point at "x" or he has one shot and it happens to work, etc. Again, that's not something that happens often, usually he solves these things with his mind as much (or moreso) than his powers.

I hate power creep when it is simply done for it's own sake. I can buy that for a skill the character on Day One is far less skillful than he is several years in.

My point about power creep, though, is that it's naturally occurring. Especially in the Golden and early Silver Ages, writers wanted to amaze and delight readers with further impressive feats - and so that created a pattern. It's not power creep for it's own sake, but power creep is the unintended consequence.

And I personally prefer a writer who balances his character out. Superman got more powerful, but his greater power comes with drawbacks as well as benefits. Maybe beyond a certain level he can perform more impressive feats but afterward he needs to recharge- so flying from here to Rann in an eyeblink means for the rest of the story his powers are weaker. Or Superman can build a wall at super-speed but the mortar might not hold (too wet or if heat visioned didn't set evenly). But we seem to more often get higher powers and nothing to offset it.

I'm not totally opposed to that - but that's largely because I grew up on Post-Crisis, where the "solar battery" idea was in full swing.

But.. does the power really affect the stories that much? Very rarely have I ever said "oh, there's no way Superman should be able to do that" and have it take me out of the story. In fact, when I think of times that I *have* thought that, my first thoughts are Superman II's "cellophane 'S' shield throw" and Superman IV's "build-the-great-wall vision".

To each their own, of course, but I think you might be overthinking all this just a bit.

Best negative example to me was Morrison using Wally against a Martian. One of the reasons we got the speed force (or it's predecessor the super-speed aura) was to explain why Barry and Wally didn't burn up from friction or suffer other drawbacks of super-speed. Morrison wrote it to have his cake and eat it too. Wally according to him gains the infitie mass any other object does at light-speed but that mass only manifests to make him hit harder. To my thinking either the Speed Force prevents Wally from having infinite mass or ielse Wally has ALL the aspects of that mass and is a literal black hole when running that fast.

This didn't really bother me because I remember Flash feeling a bit underpowered compared to the rest of the JLA at the time, and that helped to even that out just a bit. But Morrison has always done this kind of thing, which is one of many reasons why I like his stuff but generally don't love it (with some notable exceptions: All-Star - meant to be Silver Age-style fantastical - and the start of his 2011 Action run).