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  1. #556
    Incredible Member TheDarman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    You misunderstand. I don't care about the financial situation of large corporations. Most people don't. All they're gonna know is Spider-Man isn't gonna be in a movie with the X-Men. That's what they care about. You can argue numbers and finances all you want, but people not involved in those things don't care about those things. And I think you know this.
    Okay. So, I gather from what you just said is you don’t care about who blew up the deal. I know most people don’t care. I figured you did because, well, you’re here. But fair enough.

    The only point that you’re making is one I can agree and sympathize with. That point is simply Disney makes better comic book movies than Sony. I agree. That’s why I want them to remain involved. I was caught up on how that would occur. So we were talking past one another. My apologies for that.

    I don't work for Sony. I don't care.
    So, I guess your points in support of Disney were made...because you felt I was being unfair to them? I’m just confused about why make statements in support of at least their position on the deal if you don’t care about the above information?
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  2. #557
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarman View Post
    Okay. So, I gather from what you just said is you don稚 care about who blew up the deal. I know most people don稚 care. I figured you did because, well, you池e here. But fair enough.

    The only point that you池e making is one I can agree and sympathize with. That point is simply Disney makes better comic book movies than Sony. I agree. That痴 why I want them to remain involved. I was caught up on how that would occur. So we were talking past one another. My apologies for that.
    It's okay.

    So, I guess your points in support of Disney were made...because you felt I was being unfair to them? I知 just confused about why make statements in support of at least their position on the deal if you don稚 care about the above information?
    The only battle that really matters in this situation is the battle of public opinion.

  3. #558
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    The words "Exciting gamble" are not what you want to hear when you put $150,000,000+ into a movie
    Eh, maybe not if you're a corporation, but as a fan who hasn't been impressed with live action Spidey in a long while, I'm all for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    I'm curious, what makes you feel MCU Spider-Man films have already plateaued only after 2 solo films and could never reach "great"?
    Personally I can't help but imagine all the stuff they could have done if they actually got to play with all the toys the past two franchises were privy to: Norman and Harry Osborn, Ock Ock, etc.
    Eh, I'm not a "third time's the charm" kind of guy. I like the MCU, I do, but the MCU movies I really love rather than like are few and far between. Why should I think suddenly the next one will be drastically better than the last one?

  4. #559
    Incredible Member TheDarman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    The only battle that really matters in this situation is the battle of public opinion.
    I think it won’t really matter by the time another Spider-Man flick comes out. I feel confident that something will be worked out. And I think if Sony were serious about wanting to go it alone, they would’ve already announced a release date for the third Holland Spider-Man film.
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  5. #560
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarman View Post
    I think it won’t really matter by the time another Spider-Man flick comes out. I feel confident that something will be worked out. And I think if Sony were serious about wanting to go it alone, they would’ve already announced a release date for the third Holland Spider-Man film.
    Agreed. They're both clearly playing hardball in the press right now. For all we know, they may have already made some kind of deal, but haven't made it official yet (similar to when Disney fired, and subsequently rehired, James Gunn from Guardians 3).

  6. #561
    Incredible Member TheDarman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Agreed. They're both clearly playing hardball in the press right now. For all we know, they may have already made some kind of deal, but haven't made it official yet (similar to when Disney fired, and subsequently rehired, James Gunn from Guardians 3).
    I keep wondering if Sony may be targeting a press release for the day Spider-Man: Far From Home releases on Blu-Ray. I don’t know if a deal is necessarily made yet, but it would make sense for them to sit on it until it has the best news cycle possible. Either before that release or during a slow cycle to allow for it to be the talk of the internet so everyone knows and both sides come out looking real good.
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  7. #562
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    I mean at the end of the day when Marvel casually drops a billion dollars into Sonys lap (a billion dollar movie Sonys only ever had once before, wont get again and said Billion was due to a lot of unrepeatable factors) then yeah I'd like to think I could ask for a raise/renegotiation

  8. #563
    Mighty Member Zeitgeist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Eh, I'm not a "third time's the charm" kind of guy. I like the MCU, I do, but the MCU movies I really love rather than like are few and far between. Why should I think suddenly the next one will be drastically better than the last one?
    That's fair enough.
    As for why, quite a few MCU films in their micro-franchises have increased in quality as they've gone along: First Avenger to Winter Soldier and Dark World to Ragnarok come to mind.
    I saw Homecoming and Far From Home as laying the foundation - Peter had finally come into his own, his own legacy beginning to be established. I could only see highs from there, tbh. But we won't know now, at least for some time.
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  9. #564
    Incredible Member TheDarman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    I mean at the end of the day when Marvel casually drops a billion dollars into Sonys lap (a billion dollar movie Sonys only ever had once before, wont get again and said Billion was due to a lot of unrepeatable factors) then yeah I'd like to think I could ask for a raise/renegotiation
    Certainly, but I think that there is a difference between asking for more and asking for too much. And making it so billion dollar Spider-Man film is less profitable for Sony than an $800 million Spider-Man movie is probably falling under that too much category.
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  10. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarman View Post
    Certainly, but I think that there is a difference between asking for more and asking for too much. And making it so billion dollar Spider-Man film is less profitable for Sony than an $800 million Spider-Man movie is probably falling under that too much category.
    Except when it starts losing money again like ASM2.

  11. #566
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    That's fair enough.
    As for why, quite a few MCU films in their micro-franchises have increased in quality as they've gone along: First Avenger to Winter Soldier and Dark World to Ragnarok come to mind.
    I saw Homecoming and Far From Home as laying the foundation - Peter had finally come into his own, his own legacy beginning to be established. I could only see highs from there, tbh. But we won't know now, at least for some time.
    Eh, if you need two films to lay the foundations for one character to get him right, you're kind of doing it wrong in my opinion. It should get done in film one, if not all in the first half of film one. Film two is usually the high point for a lot of franchises. I just really didn't see MCU Spidey getting to be more like comics Spidey, and I was less interested in a Spidey with no secret ID (because you know there was no putting that genie back in the bottle - the MCU oddly seems to be completely anti-secret ID for some reason). Not saying it wouldn't have been good, just that it'd have been hard to make it great.

  12. #567
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Except when it starts losing money again like ASM2.
    ASM2 didn't lose that much money though, and it was a fairly blegh film. The next Sony Spidey film could be good, especially if they have the obvious idea of putting the Spider-Verse guys in charge. But that's a maybe, which is the point - there is no reason to assume it will either start losing money or start making more, there is no reason to assume it will be bad or that it will be good, it could go either way.

  13. #568
    Incredible Member TheDarman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    Except when it starts losing money again like ASM2.
    But the truth of the matter is why would Sony operate under the presumption that they’d start losing money? They made a Venom movie, that was poorly received, and made over $850 million. Why should they presume a Spider-Man movie, which they make with the intention (like any movie) of being as good as possible, would perform worse than that?

    This isn’t to mention the fact that Sony would be continuing forward with Holland’s Spider-Man as he is and from the story they left him in at the end of the last one. I bet Sony, probably rightly, guesses you are either in on Holland’s Spider-Man or you’re not. There are probably comparatively few that care enough about this one not having MCU elements to not at least go see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    ASM2 didn't lose that much money though, and it was a fairly blegh film. The next Sony Spidey film could be good, especially if they have the obvious idea of putting the Spider-Verse guys in charge. But that's a maybe, which is the point - there is no reason to assume it will either start losing money or start making more, there is no reason to assume it will be bad or that it will be good, it could go either way.
    If they came out and said that movie was written by Chris McKenna and Erik Sommers and was getting Phil Lord and Chris Miller to direct, produce, and give final oversight over the script, I would lose my crap. That would be amazing, especially with such a cool concept for a third film set up after Far From Home.
    Last edited by TheDarman; 09-19-2019 at 12:51 PM.
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  14. #569
    Mighty Member Zeitgeist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarman View Post
    But the truth of the matter is why would Sony operate under the presumption that they’d start losing money? They made a Venom movie, that was poorly received, and made over $850 million. Why should they presume a Spider-Man movie, which they make with the intention (like any movie) of being as good as possible, would perform worse than that?
    Diminishing returns. Venom did well at the box office, but sold tickets solely on the popularity of the character if anything. By the time the next film comes around, be it a Venom sequel or a new Spider-Man, it has to contend with the reputation of that film. Add the section of people who hold Sony responsible for the breakdown in the MCU deal, and you've got a lot of wary people more content to watch how things play out, rather than instantly buy a ticket.
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  15. #570
    Incredible Member TheDarman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    Diminishing returns. Venom did well at the box office, but sold tickets solely on the popularity of the character if anything. By the time the next film comes around, be it a Venom sequel or a new Spider-Man, it has to contend with the reputation of that film. Add the section of people who hold Sony responsible for the breakdown in the MCU deal, and you've got a lot of wary people more content to watch how things play out, rather than instantly buy a ticket.
    To be honest, I think we overestimate the impact of this situation on the bottom line. I mean, Spider-Man: Far From Home’s re-release, not even two weeks after the news broke, almost made as much as the Avengers: Endgame did that first weekend (Far From Home’s re-release was over by the next weekend in most places, unlike Endgame’s so the comparisons largely end there). I think it is a mistake to try to make up excuses for its success. After all, if Venom’s success were merely about the character’s popularity, the second weekend drop would’ve been more severe than a 56% drop, which is par the course for big movies. It would’ve been more similar to Batman v. Superman, which dropped over 60% in its second weekend. I don’t think Sony should have any reason to expect diminishing returns on the sole fact that Spider-Man (a version who was in the MCU mind you) is no longer explicitly connected to that MCU. This isn’t to mention, of course, that the reputation of Holland’s Spider-Man films are pretty good so far. I think the real test for Sony is whether they can make a fourth or a fifth Holland Spider-Man film as successful as the first three. And, should they be able to, they were right to send Disney packing with a 50/50 co-financing partner. But there is still room for negotiation. Disney needs to offset opportunity cost. I think Sony will agree to a smaller co-financing stake provided there are stipulations in place that Holland’s Spider-Man remains under their sole ownership. They both make money and Sony isn’t worried about taking a bath on a Spider-Man film again.
    Last edited by TheDarman; 09-20-2019 at 07:57 AM.
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