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  1. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerous View Post
    Now let's look at the MCU version of 'Spider-Man'...
    Ok, let's...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerous View Post
    1) Uncle Ben is practically never mentioned, and may as well have never existed.
    Is Uncle Ben referenced in every single Spider-Man comic in order to constantly remind readers about Spidey's origin?

    No.

    Does the lack of constant references mean that he "may as well have never existed?"

    No.

    Just as the vast majority of Spider-Man comics don't feel the need to refer back to Uncle Ben, so too can the movies assume that viewers are already familiar with Spidey's origin and not belabor the point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerous View Post
    2) Peter Parker never appears to have any inner pain or guilt relating to the past, and has a happy go lucky naive puppy dog personality for the entirety of his 5 films.

    (Except for Civil War, which was the one time Tom Holland actually played a GREAT version of PP and SM before the whole thing went to crap)
    Again, in the comics, Peter is not shown to be constantly suffering inner pain or guilt over the past.

    Typically, he's guilty, confused or angst-ridden over current problems relating to his love life, or school or work. The Holland Spider-Man films have followed suit with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerous View Post
    3) All his suits / tech are made by Stark or Stark Tech, they're super advanced and he's friends with all the Avengers from day one. Also there's no JJJ/Daily Bugle till the end of his 5th movie.
    The Daily Bugle doesn't play much of a part in the current comics either. In case you hadn't heard, newspapers are not the most cutting edge thing anymore.

    It's been ages in the books since the DB figured prominently in the comics. If the comics are moving way from it - and they have been for at least the last ten years or more - it makes little sense for the movies to entrench Peter in that world.

    For years, it made sense for Peter to have a job as a freelance photog. Today that's such an antiquated thing that it would be a mistake to anchor the character to it. The Raimi films were the last time that it made sense for Peter to hold down that type of job.

    As for Peter's suits, we've seen his homemade costume, it was what he wore in the climax of Homecoming and it was glimpsed in Civil War so "all his suits/tech" aren't made by Stark or Stark Tech.

    It's just that it makes more in-story sense for costumes that look the way his comic costume looks to come from another place.

    And there is precedent in the comics with Peter's Iron Spider suit to use Stark tech so it's not completely a fabrication of the movies.

    As we saw in Far From Home, it looks like we were moving towards Peter being more hands on with the creation of his suits and tech.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerous View Post
    4) If he messes up Iron Man is there to clean up his mess and belittle him, and after Stark is gone he is STILL not autonomous, and STILL being told what to do by others- Fury in FFH.
    Mentoring someone isn't "belittling" them. There's lives at stake, including Peter's own. If Tony has to be stern when the consequences of mistakes could be catastrophic, so be it. And Peter does make many decisions on his own. That some of those decisions come back to bite him is only being true to the character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerous View Post
    5) Once Peter meets Tony Stark he never seems to have money problems again.
    He still lives in Queens with May. It's not like Stark moved them into Avengers Mansion or bought them a house.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerous View Post
    6) He constantly reveals his secret identity to other heroes (because the MCU hates secret identities for some reason) and of course 'MJ' figures this out because she is so smart, oh and Aunt May is not frail, instead she is an attractive middle age woman.
    MJ knows who Peter is in the comics and has always known (even if that was a retcon) and while she was smart enough to figure it out for herself in the movies, how is that a bad thing? Should she be an idiot who can't see what's right in front of her?

    As for Aunt May, she hasn't been frail in the comics for ages. Even her current illness has not made her "frail."

    May spent decades on death's door but by the 2000's became a much more active senior citizen. And as for being "an attractive middle age woman", people age much differently than they once did. Back in the '60s, May was probably meant to be a woman in her 50s and no one would find it odd that she looked that decrepit. Today, Jennifer Lopez and Jennifer Aniston are in their 50s. May would have to be pushing 80 to look like the frail old woman she used to be depicted as.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerous View Post
    Every element of what makes Spider-Man, Spider-man was inverted in the MCU.
    It wasn't. Different aspects have been emphasized or de-emphasized but all of it has its roots in the comics - both from the 616 and the Ultimate U.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dangerous View Post
    The coolest, most badass thing Spider-Man ever did in the MCU was have a brief fight with Steve Rogers in Civil War. That was a great portrayal of both sides of Spidey in that film by Holland (probably because the Russo's grew up reading Marvel comics of the 1960's and 70's so they had more respect for the character than someone like Jon Watts)
    Watts clearly knows the character quite well.
    Last edited by Prof. Warren; 08-25-2019 at 11:01 AM.

  2. #377
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    Is Uncle Ben referenced in every single Spider-Man comic in order to constantly remind readers about Spidey's origin?
    Is a single 30-page comic equivalent to a 2hours+ motion picture? No.

    A movie is supposed to distill elements from multiple parts of the comics history. if you adapt a single issue of Spider-Man, word-for-word, panel-for-panel you would have content for an animated cartoon episode or live-action TV but not a motion picture.

    A 2hrs+ movie is roughly equivalent to say 100 issues of a comic. or about 50 issues. Uncle Ben and his origins are mentioned every 50 issues definitely. Maybe every 25 on average. I'd probably wager every 10.

    Does the lack of constant references mean that he "may as well have never existed?"
    In cinematic storytelling terms, yes. And not mentioning Uncle Ben affects the characters. Without referring to or discussing Uncle Ben, Marisa Tomei's May in particular becomes a fairly shallow character, which she is in the movie. She's essentially a self-congratulatory joke in the MCU about how the producers cast May so young and hot. Without talking about Ben you don't get any sense of the relationship between Peter and May or the depth of their bond.

  3. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Is a single 30-page comic equivalent to a 2hours+ motion picture? No.
    By the time the MCU came along, we'd already had two cinematic incarnations of Spider-Man, both of which detailed his origin.

    Audiences are not so dense that they need to constantly have something repeated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    A movie is supposed to distill elements from multiple parts of the comics history.
    That's exactly what all the movies have done.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    A 2hrs+ movie is roughly equivalent to say 100 issues of a comic. or about 50 issues. Uncle Ben and his origins are mentioned every 50 issues definitely. Maybe every 25 on average. I'd probably wager every 10.
    Comics - especially in the Silver Age - were structured with the idea that every issue might be someone's first. Given that, having the origin recapped every so often for new readers made sense. With movies that are available on DVD, on cable, and on streaming, there isn't the need for every film to recap information that was previously covered given the easy access to previous films.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In cinematic storytelling terms, yes. And not mentioning Uncle Ben affects the characters. Without referring to or discussing Uncle Ben, Marisa Tomei's May in particular becomes a fairly shallow character, which she is in the movie. She's essentially a self-congratulatory joke in the MCU about how the producers cast May so young and hot. Without talking about Ben you don't get any sense of the relationship between Peter and May or the depth of their bond.
    Their bond seems very real and genuine. They don't have to be consoling each other over Ben and Peter doesn't have to be rushing to give her her heart meds in order for their relationship to be a deep one. As the comics have evolved May into a healthier, more spry and active figure, it makes sense for May in the movies to no longer be a sickly old woman.

  4. #379
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    By the time the MCU came along, we'd already had two cinematic incarnations of Spider-Man, both of which detailed his origin.

    Audiences are not so dense that they need to constantly have something repeated.
    Small correction. Iron Man, which kickstarted the MCU, came out in 2008. The Avengers came out in May 2012. The Amazing Spider-Man, the second cinematic incarnation of the character, came out in July 2012.

  5. #380
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prof. Warren View Post
    By the time the MCU came along, we'd already had two cinematic incarnations of Spider-Man, both of which detailed his origin.

    Audiences are not so dense that they need to constantly have something repeated.
    Uncle Ben has greater importance than simply being an origin. He's Peter's father figure, role model, and the greatest love of May Parker's life. You don't have to show the origin, but you do need to mention him by name.


    Comics - especially in the Silver Age
    Uncle Ben continues to be referred to in the current era. Like in Spencer's run, Uncle Ben is mentioned a few times in his first 25 issues.

    As the comics have evolved May into a healthier, more spry and active figure, it makes sense for May in the movies to no longer be a sickly old woman.
    Ben Parker is still a person of great significance in her life. May's sickness or health has nothing to do with that. Ben remained important to May in JMS' run, and in Ultimate Spider-Man to Ultmate May Parker who was also a more active figure.

  6. #381
    Mighty Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Yeah, I don't see much to this claim that the MCU Spider-Man was a disgrace or whatever. I definitely don't see the notion that Uncle Ben is never referenced. Sure, maybe not by name, but I think that line in CW about how "if you don't stop the bad things, it's your fault when they happen" was absolutely a great way of referencing him. Similarly to how I liked the ASM 'verse's "moral obligation to do those things" line.

    I will say he definitely took a backseat to the larger MCU pretty much always? I mean both of his solo film villains were Spider-Man foes repurposed to have beef primarily with Iron Man. And neither of them were poorly done by any means. I mean I think Vulture in particular is the best written villain in the entire MCU. But that said, while I'm truly and actually sad that Spider-Man won't become like, a new staple Avenger, I think the character's roots pretty much revolve around urban New York and the Spider-Man rogues gallery, and I'm okay with seeing a return to that. Maybe Peter can still be the New Ultimate Hero of his world without the MCU taking him there.

    And maybe a crossover with Venom? I'd like a crossover with Venom.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  7. #382
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Uncle Ben has greater importance than simply being an origin. He's Peter's father figure, role model, and the greatest love of May Parker's life. You don't have to show the origin, but you do need to mention him by name.

    Uncle Ben continues to be referred to in the current era. Like in Spencer's run, Uncle Ben is mentioned a few times in his first 25 issues.

    Ben Parker is still a person of great significance in her life. May's sickness or health has nothing to do with that. Ben remained important to May in JMS' run, and in Ultimate Spider-Man to Ultmate May Parker who was also a more active figure.
    Civil War covered all that and he only got a couple stories since. No biggie.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
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  8. #383
    Radioactive! Spiderfang's Avatar
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    Meh I feel bad for those who really liked the MCU Spider-Man, but I feel like Sony did him fairly well (except for the abrupt end to The Amazing Spider-Man franchise) so I'm not too worried.
    The city I once knew as home is teetering on the edge of radioactive oblivion

  9. #384
    Astonishing Member Derek Metaltron's Avatar
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    I have decided to wait until Sony actually announces their own movie with Holland before giving up on the MCU version, because Tom and Feige’s comments haven’t totally ruled out the idea that they are still deciding what to do or if a deal might still be reached. You can call it denial if you want, but it’s still very early since we first heard about this and private talks might still be happening since the leak.

  10. #385
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    Uncle Ben is the whole reason why Peter became Spider-Man. Failing or avoiding to explicitly mention him as the cause why Peter is doing what he does is in bad taste because clearly the writers did not understand the character. Trying to replace Uncle Ben with Tony Stark is at a even lower level, like Peter seems to overcome the death of his father figure who raised him, and yet has difficulty to let Tony Stark's memory go.

    The whole "trying to replace classic characters elements with things coming from the MCU" is a reason "reasonable" enough to dislike the current version of the character.

    I don't even want to say how stupid and detrimental for Spider-Man is having all his enemies being a consequence of Tony's actions rather than his own.

  11. #386
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexCampy89 View Post
    I don't even want to say how stupid and detrimental for Spider-Man is having all his enemies being a consequence of Tony's actions rather than his own.
    Huh...Spider-Man doesn't have a reputation for creating enemies. Batman he isn't. Most of Spider-Man's villains would have been villains without Spider-Man. IN Raimi's first Spider-Man film, Norman Osborn would have become Goblin without Spider-Man. That's how it should be. Spider-Man's villains should be independent free agents who chose their criminal alter ego and so on through their own set of tragic circumstances.

    As a rule, most villains should be like that. If you keep doing stories where the hero makes the villain or drives him then the hero doesn't feel like a hero. He feels like a f--k up. That's a huge problem with Tony Stark in the MCU in general (and why he's a poor fit for the role that MCU is putting him in for Spider-Man). The problem in the MCU is that they force and shoehorn Tony Stark awkwardly into their movies in a way that makes no sense. And it often sends a pretty hollow moral message.

    For instance, in the comics, Adrian Toomes/Vulture was screwed over by a business partner called Gregory Bestman. The thing is at the end of that story, Bestman was turned in by Spider-Man for his corruption and condemned for his actions. By both the narrative (by Roger Stern) and Spider-Man the character. In the MCU, instead of Bestman you have Tony Stark take that role, but now the narrative is that Adrian Toomes has no right to feel resentment because Tony Stark is a protected character. He can never be called out or brought low as far as the MCU Spider-Man is concerned.

    Likewise, Mysterio has his stuff plagiarized and stolen by Tony Stark, and where Roger Stern would use plagiarism to condemn Roderick Kingsley as a character (who stole products and IP from Belladonna driving her to villainy and then from Norman himself), the narrative doesn't do that in Far From Home.

  12. #387
    Mighty Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    For instance, in the comics, Adrian Toomes/Vulture was screwed over by a business partner called Gregory Bestman. The thing is at the end of that story, Bestman was turned in by Spider-Man for his corruption and condemned for his actions. By both the narrative (by Roger Stern) and Spider-Man the character. In the MCU, instead of Bestman you have Tony Stark take that role, but now the narrative is that Adrian Toomes has no right to feel resentment because Tony Stark is a protected character. He can never be called out or brought low as far as the MCU Spider-Man is concerned.
    I agree with this complaint in a lot of ways, but to me, Toomes and Beck get a few shots in at Tony that you really feel, they're allegations that stick. Tony was an arms dealer. Tony stole ideas and mistreated his workers. You're absolutely right that he's a protected character, because somehow those specific critiques of Tony, among others, never seem to add up to actually condemning him. The movies will always, if not fully exalt Iron Man, at least treat him with a whole lot of sympathy. I mean, he did save the world at least twice, so that makes sense to me on some level. But it does create this weird sense of ambiguity regarding those callout moments where they show up, make me go "oh dang, Vulture is right about Iron Man," for about one second, and then the movies just forget about it at the end of that scene specifically.

    So yeah, it'll be nice to see that aspect of Spider-Man movies go by the wayside in the future no matter what happens.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  13. #388
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Uncle Ben has greater importance than simply being an origin. He's Peter's father figure, role model, and the greatest love of May Parker's life. You don't have to show the origin, but you do need to mention him by name.
    Says who, you?

    Clearly there's no actual need to reference Ben every time a Spider-Man story is told. In fact, you can go a good long while without a single mention. When Marvel used to have their yellow-boxed character intros in every issue back in the '70s, the summation of Spidey's made no mention of Uncle Ben.

    When it comes to the movies, unless you think your audience are complete idiots who must constantly be spoon fed the same information over and over, Uncle Ben can be given a break.

    By now, Ben has been covered more than enough in the movies. Spider-Man can have many, many adventures without a single mention of Ben Parker. It happens all the time in the comics.

  14. #389
    Fantastic Member luprki's Avatar
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    Ike Perlmutter must be LHAO

  15. #390
    Take Me Higher The Negative Zone's Avatar
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    Ben Parker does not need to be mentioned, but Spider-Man as a character should feel responsible so that you know Uncle Ben died. MCU Spider-Man felt like he needed to learn With Great Power Comes With Great Responsibility. This is my issue as a comic fan, not a movie fan.

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