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  1. #616
    Mighty Member Zeitgeist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    yeah, the "venom only did well cos people think he's cool" is dangerously close to "spider-man only sells because he's a flagship character with +1 slott immunity".
    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarman View Post
    I think the bigger issue is that both arguments seem to have the conviction that “I didn’t like it, and my friends didn’t like it, therefore NO ONE liked it.”
    I don't think you can at all underestimate the draw of Venom as a character and the appeal fans saw in seeing him realised 'properly' on the screen for the first time. How many tickets sold can be attributed to that curiousity/fervor I dunno; I'm sure perceived MCU connections helped a great deal also.
    But vocal audience reaction, reactions we all could see out there, was overall decidedly mixed so I don't see many other explanations for it's success other than there being a silent majority that ate it up in spite of what we know

    Silly shit just sells, sometimes ッ\_(ツ)_/ッ
    Last edited by Zeitgeist; 09-27-2019 at 03:34 PM.
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  2. #617
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    I waited until Venom came to home video and rented it from my local library for a dollar, and honestly, I can't say I got much out of it, Tom Hardy was fun but after that about everything else felt like filler until Venom could get on screen, and even then it isn't like the action was all that great or anything either.
    And I don't why someone would want this Venom to interact with Spider-Man, Eddy Brock and symbiote never knew Peter before, pretty much everything unique about their relationship comes from how personal it is, with that gone it's nothing but a standard team-up.

  3. #618
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    I saw VENOM on home video and I loved it genuinely.

    It's a goofy black comedy with amazing performances. The villain is vile and despicable. Tom Hardy gives one of the best performances in these kind of movies. And Michelle Williams elevates Anne Weying into a compelling character.

    The entire dynamic between the symbiote and Eddie, with the symbiote being a total sociopath is hilarious to see. There's a real sense of an alien trying to act like a human and doing it badly that works like this don't convey.

  4. #619
    Fantastic Member RD155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I saw VENOM on home video and I loved it genuinely.

    It's a goofy black comedy with amazing performances. The villain is vile and despicable. Tom Hardy gives one of the best performances in these kind of movies. And Michelle Williams elevates Anne Weying into a compelling character.

    The entire dynamic between the symbiote and Eddie, with the symbiote being a total sociopath is hilarious to see. There's a real sense of an alien trying to act like a human and doing it badly that works like this don't convey.
    Couldn’t agree more. I thought it was just a fun movie and Tom Hardy was fantastic. That scene with Venom against the swat team is about as close to a perfect “in character” action sequence in a superhero movie. That Scene was just sooo Venom . Truly enjoyed it. Would love to see Spider-Man work in that universe for a film, especially with Woody harellson as Cassidy. God I would love that and hopefully getting it r-rated would be the icing on the cake.

  5. #620
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HypnoHustler View Post
    I saw Venom. I really didn't think it was that bad. And Hardy is much better cast as the V-Man than *ugh* Topher Grace. I've got no problem with it, personally.
    Fair enough. Just found it to be a mediocre story with a good lead. Besides, it wasn't designed to fit into the MCU, so why force it?
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  6. #621
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    Seriously, Venom is a decent movie and the best live action rendition of the character (not that's a lot).

    As predicted by many, me among them, the new Disney-Sony deal happened.

    Venom will get referenced in the MCU and everyone lived happily together.

  7. #622
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    i was in culver city the day the news dropped, a friend directly affected by this laid out their position on it all... and... well, there's always more to it than what's in THR.
    not my place, but now that the dust seems to have settled maybe a couple of them will say some stuff on the record? but my overall point was that we only get to see the iceberg's tip
    troo fan or death

  8. #623
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    Then you don't get to cry foul if the other person walks away, tbh.
    i don't recall sony doing that?

    How far have they really come since? Venom was middling, Into The Spider-Verse succeeded in spite of itself while the main suits reportedly wrote it off and put their main attention elsewhere, and now they're floating Madame Web solos. Not enough to win my benefit of the doubt, yet.
    sure, thats an obvious and important metric... but sony overall as a studio has made intentional structural changes and to their approach that haven't really bloomed yet.

    we can minimise sony's success- if we want to- but it's unfair not to note that those exact same criticisms can be levelled at middling marvel films (hulk, thor, etc) and when marvel suits have acted against their own best interests. marvel took time to find its feet and made a bunch of mistakes too. "we" just like marvel more.

    there's almost 2 mini threads running here: 1. the fan perspective that sony are crap and should just let go. understandable. 2. how that makes no sense for sony as a corporate entity and why that would be bad news for hollywood and us in the long run. maybe less understandable.
    Last edited by boots; 09-27-2019 at 07:54 PM.
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  9. #624
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    I don't think you can at all underestimate the draw of Venom as a character and the appeal fans saw in seeing him realised 'properly' on the screen for the first time. How many tickets sold can be attributed to that curiousity/fervor I dunno; I'm sure perceived MCU connections helped a great deal also.
    generally that sort of curiosity fever sees a steep drop off after opening week.

    and venom killed it in china, where his brand recognition isn't as high.

    i don't really see why we want to take away from venom for brand recognition while we don't apply that to marvel films. i guess we can argue that the marvel films are good whereas venom isn't, but we should also admit that some of the worst marvel films were floated by the same advantages (additionally by virtue of being part of the mcu)

    But vocal audience reaction, reactions we all could see out there, was overall decidedly mixed
    mixed skewing to positive, to be fair.

    as anecdotal as it is, almost everyone in my circle including people in comic book facebook groups i'm part of, loved it. which surprised me at the time (i still have zero desire to see it).

    Silly shit just sells, sometimes ッ\_(ツ)_/ッ
    deffo. and venom from all accounts was silly. all the marvel films are silly too. that's why they sell, no?
    Last edited by boots; 09-27-2019 at 07:55 PM.
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  10. #625
    Mighty Member Zeitgeist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    i don't recall sony doing that?
    That was from their official statement after the news broke of a deal not panning out - which they happened to tweet out here (strange for a studio to officially do, IMO):

    "Much of todayツ痴 news about Spider-Man has mischaracterized recent discussions about Kevin Feigeツ痴 involvement in the franchise. We are disappointed, but respect Disneyツ痴 decision not to have him continue as a lead producer of our next live action Spider-Man film. We hope this might change in the future, but understand that the many new responsibilities that Disney has given him ツ including all their newly added Marvel properties ツ do not allow time for him to work on IP they do not own. Kevin is terrific and we are grateful for his help and guidance and appreciate the path he has helped put us on, which we will continue."


    sure, thats an obvious and important metric... but sony overall as a studio has made intentional structural changes and to their approach that haven't really bloomed yet.
    As an audience member, I can only judge these things once they become tangible.

    we can minimise sony's success- if we want to- but it's unfair not to note that those exact same criticisms can be levelled at middling marvel films (hulk, thor, etc) and when marvel suits have acted against their own best interests. marvel took time to find its feet and made a bunch of mistakes too. "we" just like marvel more.
    Sony had already found their feet rather quickly between Spider-Man 1 and 2 though - Raimi's Spider-Man 2 still being one of the best superhero films of all time IMO. Better than the MCU's Spidey films, even.
    But due to notable studio interference with Spider-Man 3 and a pretty uninspired reboot thereafter, until Spider-Verse it was for my money the last great superhero films they made. Spider-Man 3, Amazing Spider-Man, Amazing Spider-Man 2, Venom, Into The Spider-Verse - I don't think I'm minimising anything by saying that's not a great run at all, IMO. Spider-Verse is great, but right now it's an outlier.


    there's almost 2 mini threads running here: 1. the fan perspective that sony are crap and should just let go. understandable. 2. how that makes no sense for sony as a corporate entity and why that would be bad news for hollywood and us in the long run. maybe less understandable.
    idk man I'm just trying figure out whether Venom sold tickets because people are horny for monsters and wanted to see the black goopy guy fuck


    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    generally that sort of curiosity fever sees a steep drop off after opening week.
    Right - but the film didn't have positive word of mouth at all. Hence my confusion.

    and venom killed it in china, where his brand recognition isn't as high.
    Marvel has generally been killing it there though, no?

    i don't really see why we want to take away from venom for brand recognition while we don't apply that to marvel films. i guess we can argue that the marvel films are good whereas venom isn't, but we should also admit that some of the worst marvel films were floated by the same advantages (additionally by virtue of being part of the mcu)
    The difference is that Venom as a comic book character was easily more popular than any hero Marvel Studios led with in Phase 1 at the time. He still may be more popular than some of them, in fact. Hell, you've still got aging edgelords wanting to see a live action Maximum Carnage or something. Carnage fans, in 2019!
    I know it's super easy to underestimate the popularity of these characters, believe me, I hate Carnage so so much. But somehow, for some reason, people want to see symbiotes.

    Also yes, no doubt the MCU touch is a bonus and works in Marvel Studios favour, and potentially Venom by transference.

    mixed skewing to positive, to be fair.
    I thought I was being fair by saying it was split down the middle, as I feel I've seen a bit more negativity than positivity regarding the film. I think if reaction erred on the side of positive then there'd be a lot more people enthused by the prospect of a Spider-Man / Venom crossover when it seemed like Sony and Disney were done. Case-in-point, I didn't see many people pointing to Venom as evidence Sony could run with the Spider-Man franchise by themselves.


    deffo. and venom from all accounts was silly. all the marvel films are silly too. that's why they sell, no?
    Yeah look if Venom was good, I'd say so. But there's a big disparity for me between it and standard MCU fare. Maybe it's strange throwback late-90s/early-00s janky superhero cheese was the right measure of irreverent or nostalgia? maybe Venom fucks
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  11. #626
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    China loves movies that have lots of special effects and simple plots. Venom has both.

  12. #627
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    [
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    That was from their official statement after the news broke of a deal not panning out - which they happened to tweet out here (strange for a studio to officially do, IMO):

    "snip"
    riiight. this is one of those ymmv thingos. didn't raise an eyebrow from me

    but the point i was concerned with was that sony have a right to protect themselves and to work towards independence. the pr side of stuff is not so much my bag. i guess it's a bit churlish? idk.

    As an audience member, I can only judge these things once they become tangible.
    fair, but anything we're discussing is all available online.

    Sony had already found their feet rather quickly between Spider-Man 1 and 2 though - Raimi's Spider-Man 2 still being one of the best superhero films of all time IMO. Better than the MCU's Spidey films, even.
    right. i'm counting this from the current crop, maybe from asm onwards. the moviescape and studios have changed a lot recently, especially in these post marvel disney times. in movie terms i'd say the original spidey trilogy should be counted as much the burton batman movies, or even nolan batman re the current warner attempts.

    idk man I'm just trying figure out whether Venom sold tickets because people are horny for monsters and wanted to see the black goopy guy fuck
    either or? it doesn't really make a difference, the take aways are that it was a hit and enough for sony to feel a tad more confident.

    i vote black goop guy bangs tho

    Marvel has generally been killing it there though, no?
    generally, but not across the board. black panther comes to mind

    it's a different market. venom's ties to marvel may have helped, but overall, it most likely smashed it there '輟s people were enjoying it. different strokes and all that. i don't begrudge that

    The difference is that Venom as a comic book character was easily more popular than any hero Marvel Studios led with in Phase 1 at the time. He still may be more popular than some of them, in fact. Hell, you've still got aging edgelords wanting to see a live action Maximum Carnage or something. Carnage fans, in 2019!
    I know it's super easy to underestimate the popularity of these characters, believe me, I hate Carnage so so much. But somehow, for some reason, people want to see symbiotes.

    Also yes, no doubt the MCU touch is a bonus and works in Marvel Studios favour, and potentially Venom by transference.
    sure, i don't think anyone could diss on that being a factor. but venom didn't just break even, it pulled a big box office. that's general-populace-don't-know-the-difference-between-marvel-and-dc-numbers.

    I thought I was being fair by saying it was split down the middle.
    that wasn't my personal assessment ( as much access as i have to the scientific data..which is none at all), that's the take from the media and social media monitors.


    Yeah look if Venom was good, I'd say so. But there's a big disparity for me between it and standard MCU fare. Maybe it's strange throwback late-90s/early-00s janky superhero cheese was the right measure of irreverent or nostalgia? maybe Venom fucks
    yeah i have zero opinion on the movie, but it appears that "venom" sits somewhere between the worst of marvel films and the best of them. again, as peanuts as that sounds, call for sony to celebrate.

    if it's for venom fucking; give the peoples what they wants
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  13. #628
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    China loves movies that have lots of special effects and simple plots. Venom has both.
    * special effects and simple plots translate easily internationally

    fixed that for ya.

    both america and china have moved towards tentpoles and franchise blockbusters in the past decade, china partially due to difficulties for independent film makers to work at home and in the west partially 'cos...economics.
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  14. #629
    Mighty Member Zeitgeist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    but the point i was concerned with was that sony have a right to protect themselves and to work towards independence.
    Right, naturally. Anyone should understand that from a business standpoint. Which is why I felt it was silly for them to play the victim when they're playing to their interests just as much as the opposite, but it's all a game of spin so they gotta do what they can, I guess.



    right. i'm counting this from the current crop, maybe from asm onwards. the moviescape and studios have changed a lot recently, especially in these post marvel disney times. in movie terms i'd say the original spidey trilogy should be counted as much the burton batman movies, or even nolan batman re the current warner attempts.
    I track from Spider-Man 3 onwards due to that being the point you can mark them fumbling the ball and never properly recovering it - it doesn't feel like the studio mandate then was too different to what happened in say Amazing Spider-Man 2. Even if we look from Amazing 1 onwards, I don't think it makes much of a difference. I'll be very intrigued on how their next solo feature goes from here.



    either or? it doesn't really make a difference, the take aways are that it was a hit and enough for sony to feel a tad more confident.

    i vote black goop guy bangs tho
    yee


    that's general-populace-don't-know-the-difference-between-marvel-and-dc-numbers.
    Yeah, I can live with that. I just find it fascinating in a way.
    Like, the Transformer films did big business even though they got progressively more terrible (and starting from middling at that) but they had the Bay name behind them. This not so much. For all the constant talk of superhero fatigue, it feels like this succeeded because it was a superhero film. With a hentai alien.


    that wasn't my personal assessment ( as much access as i have to the scientific data..which is none at all), that's the take from the media and social media monitors.
    Same. I mean in all fareness it's not like we took away polar opposite conclusions, it's like splitting hairs between a C and a B-.


    if it's for venom fucking; give the peoples what they wants
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