Spider-Man forced out of the MCU due to failed Sony Deal

[WebLurker]

Its weird some people are saying spiderman 3 killed the franchise. reviews were mixed, there was a lot of studio internal issues since Raimi did not want to use venom, the movie earned its budgets back.What killed the franchise was when Raimi left before spiderman 4 went into production. Sometimes I am shocked by how much the narrative has so much change because of the MCU. I would commend the spiderman fans as I am one, the narrative was to use homecoming to wipe out sam raimi's spiderman impact, this is the reason the movie for a long time was portrayed as the best spiderman we have seen but many spiderman fans were not having it. they saw right through Disney's agenda and they also had the comics.

Dude, the narrative that Sony slaughtered the Raimi series was there long before Marvel Studios got into the picture. Think about it; pretty much all the major problems in the movie are traced back to Sony's demands for the movie. They also were the ones who insisted that Raimi finished the movie by a deadline he couldn't work with (a year before ASM1 was released, so we do know that they could've given him the time needed to make things work.) So, make of that what you will.

(As far as the whole idea that Marvel Studios wanted to wipe out the previous movies "impact," what is in the water here?)

Spending time here and on the spiderman forum, I am truly shocked to see just how much many spiderman fans dislike holland's spiderman, even dubbing him '''Iron Boy''. I guess Disney land has never been reality for real. those that think spiderman 3 killed the franchise, If sony announces a spiderman 4 tomorrow, there would be no bigger comic news story until the movie is out.

It will be big news for sure, but wanna bet how much of the anticipation will be on whether Sony can pull it off solo, given their checked batting average? The fact that they got labeled the bad guys from day one says a lot about how they're perceived as Spidey content creators based on their past work and the overall reception of the MCU Spidey series.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

He was motivated by it and couldn't do it. There is no "bias" in that. Raimi didn't have to bring up Spiderman 3 to say he wasn't happy with Spiderman 4. But he did. He tied it together, not me. I think you're falling victim to the very thing you're accusing me of.

I have a quote from Sony's CEO and the fact that they went begging to Marvel. I mean, the "went begging to Marvel" is all the point I need really. The CEO just made it painfully obvious.

1. Raimi said nothing about Spider-Man 3 being the reason he couldn't get a script together. If anything, he said Spider-Man 3 was why he even tried in the first place.

2. The CEO's quote is about where the franchise was after ASM 2.

[XPac]

I'm sorry this is an example of bias and delusion. There is nowhere in Raimi's statement where he said that Spider-Man 3 was the reason he couldn't get a script together for Spider-Man 4. If anything it says he was motivated by Spider-Man 3 to try to do better this time.

You literally just projected your own feelings into his statement that says nothing remotely like what you are claiming. "But I couldn't get the script together in time, due to my own failings". Where the hell does he say his own failings had anything to do with Spider-Man 3? Nowhere. You want it to be true so you made it up.

I'm sorry you are just flat out wrong. I didn't brush anything off, you flat out just made **** up. It's kinda frightening to be honets.

Furthermore lets go more into the craziness. You said Spider-Man 3 was "largely panned".

It has a 63% on rotten tomatoes, it has an average score of 6.2, it has 160 positive reviews to 96 negative reviews. That's not largely panned. It got a mixed reception.

But I'm still amazed that you accuse me of making up my own narrative when YOU LITERALLY QUOTED THE DIRECTOR SAYING HE WAS MOTIVATED BY SPIDER-MAN 3 TO MAKE SPIDER-MAN 4 AND THEN SAYS IT WAS HIS OWN FAILINGS THAT HE DIDN'T GET A SCRIPT ON TIME, NOT REMOTELY BLAMING IT ON SPIDER-MAN 3, and you just blatantly projected into it so you could suit your narrative.

So lets go into straight facts.

1. Spider-Man 3 was the highest grossing Spider-Man film outside of Far From Home. So if that's a failure so is Homecoming. It was a financial success
2. Spider-Man 3 you said was panned by critics. We have data from critics. It has 160 positive reviews to 96 negative reviews on RT. It has a fresh rating. It had many more positive reviews than negative. You can't say it was panned.
3. Sony wanted to do Spider-Man 4 so bad that they negotiated a record breaking contract with Tobey to get him on board.
4. Sony wanted to do Spider-Man 4 so bad that they negotiated for Tobey to have 6 months of off time whenever he wanted to take so they could get him back, in fact Pascal had to interfere so they could get that.
5. Raimi sites Spider-Man 3 IN YOUR OWN QUOTE for why he wanted to do Spider-Man 4.
6. Nothing in your quote supports that Raimi failed to produce a script because of Spider-Man 3, in fact he blames himself for it.

Those are the facts thats support my position.

You have one quote from a CEO. That CEO made that quote after 2 seperate Spider-Man films in an entirely different continuity where the most recent one just got the lowest gross of a Spider-Man 3 film. That Studio exec did not site Spider-Man 3 in that quote and it's for more likely he was talking about ASM 2.

You're showing immense bias and the facts are completely not on your side. Do yourself a favor, don't accuse people of things when you can't even read the big quote you posted that you thought was some type of checkmate that actually in reality went against your point

If Sony wanted Spider-Man 4 so bad, why didn't they just make Spider-Man 4? Fox and Marvel have lost or switched writers and directors, and the movies still got made.

Given Raimi himself didn't even like his third movie, and he flat out couldn't make a fourth, it clearly was time to replace him anyways.

[Theleviathan]

1. Raimi said nothing about Spider-Man 3 being the reason he couldn't get a script together. If anything, he said Spider-Man 3 was why he even tried in the first place.

2. The CEO's quote is about where the franchise was after ASM 2.

Right....but why did he try? What did he say his reason was for trying? It IS linked to Spiderman 3, just as I said. He felt like leaving the franchise on that note (a movie he was unhappy with- another point against your spin on this) wasn't right. He wanted to fix that bad taste in audience's mouths but couldn't find a way to do it.

The CEO's quote is the basis of my point - Sony has had trouble, and publicly acknowledged as much in multiple obvious ways, that they didn't have a good handle on how to do Spiderman successfully. The only reason they got to ASM 2, which led to them begging Disney for help, was because the ending of the previous trilogy lead them to go in a different direction that also failed.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

If Sony wanted Spider-Man 4 so bad, why didn't they just make Spider-Man 4? Fox and Marvel have lost or switched writers and directors, and the movies still got made.

Given Raimi himself didn't even like his third movie, and he flat out couldn't make a fourth, it clearly was time to replace him anyways.

The actors were done. Raimi was done. The writing was on the wall. Tobey and Dunst were going on every interview they could pissing fans off talking about how much the films drained them and they couldn’t wait for it to be over. The actors were also loyal to Raimi and his involvement was what was largely keeping them at the table.

Sony knew they were on borrowed time with the cast and director so they already planned a reboot. They weren’t going to retain them forever and the writing was on the wall.

Raimi not getting a script done and a date not being set by 2010 basically ended any hope of it working. Raimi flatout told them “I can’t do this, do your reboot”.

I think it’s ridiculous to say they didn’t really want Spider-Man 4 when they

1.Assured the director they would stay out of the way this time and gave him free reign to keep him onsite

2. Gave their lead the largest contract in movie history AND had the head of the division fight to get him an echo titans amount of time off on top of that to keep him satisfied.

Those aren’t the actions of a studio that didn’t want to make the film

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Right....but why did he try? What did he say his reason was for trying? It IS linked to Spiderman 3, just as I said. He felt like leaving the franchise on that note (a movie he was unhappy with- another point against your spin on this) wasn't right. He wanted to fix that bad taste in audience's mouths but couldn't find a way to do it.

The CEO's quote is the basis of my point - Sony has had trouble, and publicly acknowledged as much in multiple obvious ways, that they didn't have a good handle on how to do Spiderman successfully. The only reason they got to ASM 2, which led to them begging Disney for help, was because the ending of the previous trilogy lead them to go in a different direction that also failed.

No offense but I can’t keep arguing with someone who is twisting the facts to support his conclusion and projecting their own opinion into quotes that aren’t relevant.

How you turned Raimi saying he wanted to do Spidey 4 because of Spider-Man 3 into “he failed to make it because of Spider-Man 3” is mind boggling and telling. Spider-Man 3 was the REASON Raimi was on board. If it was an amazing ending he likely was satisfied enough to walk away and we would have got the reboot sooner.

Also your CEO quote is not directly tied to Spider-Man 3 and ASM 2 is a more relevant film that made less money and had worse reviews that it would applicable to. Until you can directly tie it to Spider-Man 3 I’m sick of hearing about it. I get it’s the only thing you have to lean on, while you ignored the myriad of facts that are easily sourced that I provided, but it’s not even directly in support of your point so its just not compelling. Everyone knows ASM 2 didn’t do well. And this is how easy it is to dismiss it, “now Sony ditched Marvel so they obviously don’t feel that way anymore”.

Unless you can supply blunt facts like I have on Spider-Man 3 and not twist quotes around to attempt to get them to support your conclusion, it’s a waste of time. In fact, based off the evidence we have, it’s more likely Spider-Man 3 was the only reason they had a shot at Spider-Man 4

[Theleviathan]

No offense but I can’t keep arguing with someone who is twisting the facts to support his conclusion and projecting their own opinion into quotes that aren’t relevant.

How you turned Raimi saying he wanted to do Spidey 4 because of Spider-Man 3 into “he failed to make it because of Spider-Man 3” is mind boggling and telling. Spider-Man 3 was the REASON Raimi was on board. If it was an amazing ending he likely was satisfied enough to walk away and we would have got the reboot sooner.

Also your CEO quote is not directly tied to Spider-Man 3 and ASM 2 is a more relevant film that made less money and had worse reviews that it would applicable to. Until you can directly tie it to Spider-Man 3 I’m sick of hearing about it. I get it’s the only thing you have to lean on, while you ignored the myriad of facts that are easily sourced that I provided, but it’s not even directly in support of your point so its just not compelling. Everyone knows ASM 2 didn’t do well. And this is how easy it is to dismiss it, “now Sony ditched Marvel so they obviously don’t feel that way anymore”.

Unless you can supply blunt facts like I have on Spider-Man 3 and not twist quotes around to attempt to get them to support your conclusion, it’s a waste of time. In fact, based off the evidence we have, it’s more likely Spider-Man 3 was the only reason they had a shot at Spider-Man 4

I'm getting the sense you don't know how to use the word "fact" accurately. Neither of us are talking in the realm of facts when we are trying to get into Sam Raimi's head. The idea that you somehow have the "Facts" of his motivations is pretty silly. I see his quote as being a common sentiment people have: I don't like the way I finished that, I want one more go to do it right. He couldn't do it.

And it's far more likely that Spiderman 4 was possible because of Spiderman 1 and 2. Raimi had a ton of equity and Sony let him try and right his own ship to their credit. However, the studio also felt SO great about Spiderman 3 that while Raimi was trying to right his wrong, they were simultaneously working on a reboot plan. Not the sort of thing a studio would do if, say, Spiderman 3 was a smashing success. If the spin job you're attempting was true, it's real strange that the director refers to the film as something he is "unhappy" with and that the studio is actively planning a Plan B reboot for.

Amazing Spiderman 2 never needs to be made if Spiderman 3 didn't take a franchise that had two brilliant outings and derail it. And without the Amazing flops 1 and 2....Sony's CEO never has to publicly say "We went begging to Marvel to fix our problem"

[Beaddle]

Dude, the narrative that Sony slaughtered the Raimi series was there long before Marvel Studios got into the picture. Think about it; pretty much all the major problems in the movie are traced back to Sony's demands for the movie. They also were the ones who insisted that Raimi finished the movie by a deadline he couldn't work with (a year before ASM1 was released, so we do know that they could've given him the time needed to make things work.) So, make of that what you will.

Sony did not slaughter the spiderman series anymore than warner brothers has slaughtered batman. who still makes Batman movies? also would any batman fan trust disney over warner brothers when it comes to batman, despite batman been a mixed bag at WB much like X-Men was at fox?

It will be big news for sure, but wanna bet how much of the anticipation will be on whether Sony can pull it off solo, given their checked batting average? The fact that they got labeled the bad guys from day one says a lot about how they're perceived as

Sony were labelled the bad guys by the bias disney news feed media. People have seen saying there is a bias to marvel studios for years now and right now, its so obvious even the strongest mcu supporters don't even deny it anymore that MCU gets too much of a pass. this sony failed deal just proves it again even this year alone for the 4th time.

Spidey content creators based on their past work and the overall reception of the MCU Spidey series.

The overall reception is Sony made the best spiderman movies and MCU spidey iron boy series does not measure up.

[SpiderClops]

These are the Marvel films that crossed a billion:

Avengers:

Iron Man 3 (billed as the follow up to Avengers)

Avengers 2.

Captain America Civil War (basically an Avengers flick)

Black Panther (billed as the lead into Avengers 3)

Avengers 3

Captain Marvel (billed as the lead in to Avengers 4)

Avengers 4

Far From Home (billed as the follow up to Avengers 4)

So basically Marvel has Avengers and then can get a few other films over the hump if they can directly tie it to the Avengers and make people feel like they need to see it as part of the most recent Avengers film. So in there entire library, they have one franchise that they can actually leverage to make a billion and anything else needs to be the movie directly preceding or following it and marketed as being an important film to that particular property.

Sony, doesn't have the Avengers.

Who is stopping other studios from making their own billion dollar guarenteed and then some movies again? Who is stopping them from making movies that "leech off" other ridiculously popular movies?

Who made Avengers THE AVENGERS? Why can't anyone else do it? I serioisly don't get how making something ridiculously popular that wasn't before is somehow a knock against them.

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Who is stopping other studios from making their own billion dollar guarenteed and then some movies again? Who is stopping them from making movies that "leech off" other ridiculously popular movies?

Who made Avengers THE AVENGERS? Why can't anyone else do it? I serioisly don't get how making something ridiculously popular that wasn't before is somehow a knock against them.

The point went over your head. My point had nothing to do with Marvel creating anything. It was that it’s stupid to slag a studio for not having a bunch of multi billion dollar films non stop when Marvel can only do it with Avengers based properties which is the one unique facet of their franchise that can’t be replicated

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

I'm getting the sense you don't know how to use the word "fact" accurately. Neither of us are talking in the realm of facts when we are trying to get into Sam Raimi's head. The idea that you somehow have the "Facts" of his motivations is pretty silly. I see his quote as being a common sentiment people have: I don't like the way I finished that, I want one more go to do it right. He couldn't do it.

And it's far more likely that Spiderman 4 was possible because of Spiderman 1 and 2. Raimi had a ton of equity and Sony let him try and right his own ship to their credit. However, the studio also felt SO great about Spiderman 3 that while Raimi was trying to right his wrong, they were simultaneously working on a reboot plan. Not the sort of thing a studio would do if, say, Spiderman 3 was a smashing success. If the spin job you're attempting was true, it's real strange that the director refers to the film as something he is "unhappy" with and that the studio is actively planning a Plan B reboot for.

Amazing Spiderman 2 never needs to be made if Spiderman 3 didn't take a franchise that had two brilliant outings and derail it. And without the Amazing flops 1 and 2....Sony's CEO never has to publicly say "We went begging to Marvel to fix our problem"

Well I’m getting the sense that you don’t know what a fact is.

These are the facts I’ve brought up.

1. Sony greenlit Spider-Man 4: FACT

2. Raimi was motivated by Spider-Man 3 to make Spider-Man 4. FACT his own words directly state this. Not kinda imply this. They state it.

3. We know that Sony was willing to give the lead actor the largest movie contract of all time to produce two more Spider-Man films. A FACT that is well documented

4. We know that Sony was willing to have key execs step into contract negotiations to keep their lead happy by getting him more free time to keep him on board for Spider-Man 4. FACT and has been reported by multiple credible outlets

5. We know that Raimi cited his “own failings” for not getting a script together and never said Spider-Man 3 was the issue. FACT, year your own quote.

6. We know that Sony contracted the lead actor and director over a year after Spider-Man 3 so they made all these decisions with full knowledge of the reception of Spider-Man 3. FACT

7. We know your claim that Spider-Man 3 was panned by critics is FALSE because we have aggregated dated showing the FACT that Spider-Man 3 has many more positive reviews that negative and is rated fresh on RT.

These are all indisputable facts I brought to the table to support my point.

Don’t talk about facts when you have done nothing but speculate and when I brought these same facts to the table you just ignore them. Sorry I’m done arguing this time. You have proven bias and this discussion clearly isn’t being had in good faith on your end. You want to believe something so you are making an argument if assumptions that contradicts everything we know about it.

[Beaddle]

Who is stopping other studios from making their own billion dollar guarenteed and then some movies again? Who is stopping them from making movies that "leech off" other ridiculously popular movies?

Who made Avengers THE AVENGERS? Why can't anyone else do it? I serioisly don't get how making something ridiculously popular that wasn't before is somehow a knock against them.

It all seems kind of irrelevant when you break down the expectations of various franchises. Spiderman is one. Presumably this seems to have little impact in the Spiderman Kingdom since FFH just grossed over a billion and Spiderman was part of Endgame. Most Spiderman fans don't seem to care. Popular movies are not quality movies or factually good movies, especially now that MCU has gotten so factory overdone.

How popular is...was Holland's Spiderman once a younger generation saw the older Spiderman movies?

History is going to be less kind to Endgame than Avatar since Endgame barely had any ground breaking film technical achievement.

No offense but you raised shallow points with billion dollar movies and popularity. People seem to care more now about art and content of movies in respective of what genre. Someone already said it here, billion dollars movies are not like the 90s or early 00s, they mean nothing anymore, especially to Disney that can do it with any character. when you add that with the fact that MCU movies are just seen as simple pop corn entertainment. There is little impact there in the long run. If you want the evidence, Holland's Spiderman should have escaped Tobey's shadow by now.

[XPac]

The actors were done. Raimi was done. The writing was on the wall. Tobey and Dunst were going on every interview they could pissing fans off talking about how much the films drained them and they couldn’t wait for it to be over. The actors were also loyal to Raimi and his involvement was what was largely keeping them at the table.

Sony knew they were on borrowed time with the cast and director so they already planned a reboot. They weren’t going to retain them forever and the writing was on the wall.

Raimi not getting a script done and a date not being set by 2010 basically ended any hope of it working. Raimi flatout told them “I can’t do this, do your reboot”.

I think it’s ridiculous to say they didn’t really want Spider-Man 4 when they

1.Assured the director they would stay out of the way this time and gave him free reign to keep him onsite

2. Gave their lead the largest contract in movie history AND had the head of the division fight to get him an echo titans amount of time off on top of that to keep him satisfied.

Those aren’t the actions of a studio that didn’t want to make the film

Again, if they really want to make another movie then make it. Tobey alrrady agreed to do another. Get another writer/director who can actually do the job that Raimi obviously couldn't. Marvel has lost directors before, and the show still went on.

You don't necessarily want to reboot if your previous movie did well. Just hire another writer and director and make the movie.

[Theleviathan]

Well I’m getting the sense that you don’t know what a fact is.

These are the facts I’ve brought up.

1. Sony greenlit Spider-Man 4: FACT

2. Raimi was motivated by Spider-Man 3 to make Spider-Man 4. FACT his own words directly state this. Not kinda imply this. They state it.

3. We know that Sony was willing to give the lead actor the largest movie contract of all time to produce two more Spider-Man films. A FACT that is well documented

4. We know that Sony was willing to have key execs step into contract negotiations to keep their lead happy by getting him more free time to keep him on board for Spider-Man 4. FACT and has been reported by multiple credible outlets

5. We know that Raimi cited his “own failings” for not getting a script together and never said Spider-Man 3 was the issue. FACT, year your own quote.

6. We know that Sony contracted the lead actor and director over a year after Spider-Man 3 so they made all these decisions with full knowledge of the reception of Spider-Man 3. FACT

7. We know your claim that Spider-Man 3 was panned by critics is FALSE because we have aggregated dated showing the FACT that Spider-Man 3 has many more positive reviews that negative and is rated fresh on RT.

These are all indisputable facts I brought to the table to support my point.

Don’t talk about facts when you have done nothing but speculate and when I brought these same facts to the table you just ignore them. Sorry I’m done arguing this time. You have proven bias and this discussion clearly isn’t being had in good faith on your end. You want to believe something so you are making an argument if assumptions that contradicts everything we know about it.

Yes....Raimi was motivated by Spiderman 3! Because he was - his words - "unhappy" with it. That failure motivated him but ultimately he couldn't find a way to continue. I've said, from the outset, that the failure of Spiderman 3 dragged on the ability to continue the series and Raimi himself said as much. Let me be blunt - you are all over the place man. You're propping up strawmen left and right and you just can't keep yourself focused. So I'm going to refocus this a bit to try and help you collect yourself:

1. Spiderman 3 was not a good movie. Coming off of a brilliant Spiderman 2, the quality dip was jarring to people and put the path forward for the franchise on very shaky ground. The director was unhappy with the movie, but ultimately couldn't find a way to right the ship. (Yes, those two are directly linked and we know this because the director tied his motivations for the 4th movie to his feelings about the 3rd) The studio, seeing the jarring reaction by the public to the movie, concurrently started planning a reboot even though it had locked several key players into contracts. Movie studios don't concurrently plan reboots when they feel the last movie is worth building on. They do that when they think the franchise is shaky. Sony's Plan B proved to be a wise movie in principle - Spiderman 3's low quality and the director's frustration with how to continue after it ended the franchise.

2. Unfortunately, Plan B was nothing more than a derivative of the first movie and people soured fast. The second ASM came out too quickly and people really rejected that turd.

3. Sony, recognizing that the ship went from full steam ahead after, arguably, one of the best comic book movies ever made, to a full blown disaster. They (I'll repeat, because you conveniently ignore this) THEY went begging for help.

4. Disney righted their ship after they failed at least 2 times (three if you count Raimi's failure) to right it. They took public perception from "Ugh...another Spiderman movie....do we really need this?" to "This Holland Spiderman is pretty damn fun"

All of your facts can be true and the conclusion you draw can still be incorrect or dubious. Your facts do not directly entail my position or yours is right or wrong. Please knock that crap off. We both have facts to support our position and interpretations of those facts that are reasonable. So, again, please knock off your tone. It's totally unearned and multiple people on the thread keep trying to point it out to you.

It's simple for me: Spiderman the franchise was sailing along until one thing happened - Spiderman 3 was released. After that, everything went south fast. Seems to me the simplest place to put blame is the point at which things turned from "this franchise is brilliant, wow!" to "eh....um...that was jarringly bad"

[Beaddle]

Again, if they really want to make another movie then make it. Tobey alrrady agreed to do another. Get another writer/director who can actually do the job that Raimi obviously couldn't. Marvel has lost directors before, and the show still went on.

You don't necessarily want to reboot if your previous movie did well. Just hire another writer and director and make the movie.

How many times has Batman gotten a reboot from warner brothers. Sony would be fine with another reboot. I am more worried about the dishonest disney lackeys out there in the media that will purposely tear the reboot down as punishment for spiderman leaving the mcu, its like you said, Only MCU gets protection.