Spider-Man forced out of the MCU due to failed Sony Deal

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

Did #BoycottDisney become a thing? Did Disney feel the need to fire up the PR front on Twitter in the wee hours of the night?

I was never speaking for everyone, I was speaking for the public's reaction. And it was, demonstrably, not in Sony's favor. That isn't a statement of the morality of that, merely a statement of fact.

Okay then quantify your facts. Because I've seen just as many people bitching at Disney for wanting 50% and being greedy. Don't call things facts if you can't back them up

[titanfan]

I like this post and I agree with you. I think, in the end, both studios realize this is in their best interest to continue at some level.

I think from a financial level, both studios might be able to make more money if they were back apart. But in terms of consumer good will and "listening to your customers", then it's in their interest to work something out.

[Immortal Weapon]

I like this post and I agree with you. I think, in the end, both studios realize this is in their best interest to continue at some level.

I'm curious if you or anyone else knows....would this deal falling apart of an impact on the Spidey sequel on PS4?

It wouldn't. Sony Interactive and Sony Pictures have nothing to do with each other.

[superduperman]

I was in Sony's camp on this until I found out that Disney knocked it's requested cut down to 30% which is...kind of a reasonable ask under the circumstances. Sony should work out some way to let Holland's Spiderman meet Venom and then take the deal. No one will go see another reboot. No one. This is their best offer.

[JKtheMac]

Have the terms of the Disney/Sony deal been verified? I've heard several different claim, many contradictory.

My understanding of the matter is:

1. Sony has the movie rights and live action TV rights
2. Disney holds the animated TV rights
3. Sony sold the merchandising rights in a separate deal in 2011 independent of the later shared deal from 2015
4. Disney paid $30 million a year to use Spider-Man and any related characters in their movies. The $30 million was variable based on the performance of Homecoming and Far From Home
5. Sony paid Marvel Studios the productions costs entirely, as well as the advertising and distribution costs
6. Disney received 5% of the box office revenue that goes to the studios
7. Kevin Feige normally gets a $5 million producer fee, but waived that for Homecoming and Far From Home. He also does uncredited and uncompensated advisory work for Sony's non MCU movies
8. Sony has veto power over the story and characters of the Spider-Man MCU movies

If any of the above is inaccurate, can someone link to correct terms?

The term “sold the merchandising rights” is not strictly accurate. There is an ongoing arrangement which involves Marvel paying Sony for them per movie. Put it this way, 175 million was not enough money to pay for Sony’s theoretically perpetual marketing opportunities. Once the MCU deal was completed it was coincidentally enough to make Homecoming.

(By coincidental I mean suspiciously similar. As if it was being held in reserve for when the MCU deal was completed. Sony were cash strapped but suddenly had 175 million available to finance their own movie. Wonder where that came from? Oh look there was a payment a few years earlier from Marvel and it’s exactly the same amount of money. Hmmm?)

Some of the other elements of your description are also inaccurate.

For example Sony only pay marvel 35 million for production participation. Sony pay the lions share of production costs. (35 million is equal to the merchandising costs so no money changes hands. Meaning technically Sony have to pay for the movies in their entirety.)

The 5% is waived for any movie which falls under this arrangement. So Sony take all box office takings. There was a bonus payment of 35 million once Homecoming made a solid return but that may have been a one off movie deal, not for every SM movie.

TV rights are fine as long as the show is not long enough to be classified as a TV movie.

Technically the 2011 deal was amended for the MCU deal and the speculation is that it was amended back to what was originally on the table in 2011. Because the ASM financial backers had pulled out by then so Sony could complete the deal without a conflict of interest.

[JKtheMac]

I was in Sony's camp on this until I found out that Disney knocked it's requested cut down to 30% which is...kind of a reasonable ask under the circumstances. Sony should work out some way to let Holland's Spiderman meet Venom and then take the deal. No one will go see another reboot. No one. This is their best offer.

When you say “found out” what exactly do you mean. Have you got a reliable source? Besides, Sony may not be interested in co-financed movies. They have cash from the current success of Spider-Man.

[JKtheMac]

I like this post and I agree with you. I think, in the end, both studios realize this is in their best interest to continue at some level.

I'm curious if you or anyone else knows....would this deal falling apart of an impact on the Spidey sequel on PS4?

No. Game licensing is entirely separate. But it does speak to the generally healthy relationship between Marvel and Sony.

[AJBopp]

This seems to be an unpopular opinion, but I think Spider-man loses nothing and gains everything by not tripping over the MCU every time he turns around. He's always been at his best as a loner, facing insurmountable odds without someone else swooping in to save the day.

Just continue the path they are already on: keep building the Sinister Six, erase the graffiti of Iron Man in every other scene, give him the Civil War costume and nothing else, and let him be Spider-man, let him be Peter Parker, an inexperienced high school student struggling to understand power and responsibility.

Why on earth should anyone care if he doesn't meet Falcon, or War Machine, or Hulk in his next movie?

[WebLurker]

What is disney even doing with all that money?

Disney has finally lost it. they have been out of control this past year, hijacking academy awards, re-releasing avengers just to surpass avatar, blocking rt audience scores, telling lies about their revenues and now this? Disney doesn't even know who they are anymore. I think old Walter Disney is crying in his grave seeing what his company has become. Walt founded disney on heart, he was never interested in control, power and greed. The company in 2019 is just something else from walter disney's visions.

Don't think Disney is the one loosing it.

(FYI: Nothing wrong with the release and Rotten Tomatoes themselves, not Disney were behind the adjustment to their audience scores and to boost accuracy given the rise in review bombing campaigns. I was there for the latter, incidentally; I do know the score on that. Also am aware that while Walt Disney was an artist who chose his profession because of that, he also ran hardball business and wasn't afraid to be tough to succeed. Not sure he'd be as shocked as you think.)

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

I was in Sony's camp on this until I found out that Disney knocked it's requested cut down to 30% which is...kind of a reasonable ask under the circumstances. Sony should work out some way to let Holland's Spiderman meet Venom and then take the deal. No one will go see another reboot. No one. This is their best offer.

30% of 880 (homecoming) gets Sony $616 million. If you do that for Far From Home it gets Sony $770 million. Yes you have to increase some of that for the production costs. But it's basically a deal where Sony doesn't gain anything from it. The worst grossing Spider-Man film in live action made $709. Marvel would need to be making closer to Avengers film money for each individual Spider-Man film

Anything over 25% is a dumb ask when you don't own the rights to the character. They get the benefit of getting Spider-Man in their films which they previously didn't have and Sony wasn't asking for a cut of either of the last two Avengers films. They have no leverage.

Holland is signed with Sony. Holland is signed to another franchise with Sony, he isn't going to be in any rush to piss them off.

Of and Sony just released Venom which made more than... Iron Man, The Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2, Thor, Captain America, Thor Dark World, Winter Soldier, Guardians of the Galaxy, Ant Man, Doctor Strange, and Thor Ragnarok. Also it was not really far behind Homecoming.

So.... they already have a major character they can cross Holland's Spider-Man with and make a shiton of money.

If 30% is their best offer, then Sony should cut their losses and walk away. Even if they only do Amazing Spider-Man 2 money from here on out (which is unlikely), they are better off not dealing with the hassle of it.

Economically a deal has to make sense for both sides. The last deal made sense. Disney paid a royalty to get Holland in the MCU films, Disney had Feige give guidance on Spider-Man films and allowed Feige to put in any MCU characters they thought made sense for a 5% cut while Sony took all the risks. If I take this 30% at face value, Disney wants a 600% increase off the last deal for the benefit of a split production, which Sony likely doesn't care about because they've financed Spider-Man forever? It's ridiculous. They don't own it. They have Holland. They can make another film with Holland to springboard their universe. If Holland drops out after the contract ends they can just recast (though I doubt it because he's already working with Sony on Uncharted films).

If anything if I'm Sony I say "we let you put Spider-man in Civil War and the last two Avengers and they all made it a **** ton more than the prior installations of each franchise".

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

This seems to be an unpopular opinion, but I think Spider-man loses nothing and gains everything by not tripping over the MCU every time he turns around. He's always been at his best as a loner, facing insurmountable odds without someone else swooping in to save the day.

Just continue the path they are already on: keep building the Sinister Six, erase the graffiti of Iron Man in every other scene, give him the Civil War costume and nothing else, and let him be Spider-man, let him be Peter Parker, an inexperienced high school student struggling to understand power and responsibility.

Why on earth should anyone care if he doesn't meet Falcon, or War Machine, or Hulk in his next movie?

I don't think he loses as much as people want to think because they are upset in the moment. We haven't had a Spider-Man film with Kraven, Carnage, Scorpion, Kingpin, a full Sinister Six, Hobgoblin, etc. There's a dozen more Doc Ock, Green Goblin, and Venom storylines you can do. Black Cat hasn't been in a film. There are so many things they haven't done.

Yeah it's cool for Marvel to have their most famous character in their big tentpole films. But the idea of Spider-Man failing to function without the MCU is crazy. If anything there's more non comic properties that thrived without it than with it.

[Immortal Weapon]

I don't think he loses as much as people want to think because they are upset in the moment. We haven't had a Spider-Man film with Kraven, Carnage, Scorpion, Kingpin, a full Sinister Six, Hobgoblin, etc. There's a dozen more Doc Ock, Green Goblin, and Venom storylines you can do. Black Cat hasn't been in a film. There are so many things they haven't done.

Yeah it's cool for Marvel to have their most famous character in their big tentpole films. But the idea of Spider-Man failing to function without the MCU is crazy. If anything there's more non comic properties that thrived without it than with it.

Kingpin will never be in Spider-Man as his live-action rights are tied to Daredevil.

Technically speaking, Scorpion appeared in Homecoming.

[TooFlyToFail]

Honestly, I'm glad for this. I didn't enjoy FFH, apart from the action. Peter's entire arc was contrived as all hell.

Anyways, it's somewhat easy to keep Tom Holland and not mention the MCU in name: do a reverse, deconstruction of the Spider-Men story. Have it that after his identity was revealed, his friends and family were attacked. Have it that May was killed by a villain, and MJ/Ned was hurt in other attacks. Eventually Spidey encountered a villain that sent him into a different universe. This universe would be another Earth, but with only Spider-Man characters, with the Spider-Man being an veteran, adult Miles Morales. The deconstruction would be that the movie would take place 2-3 years after those events, and Peter is still in Miles' universe, given up being Spidey (due to what it cost him), and has no intention of returning to cause those he cares about more misery. The movie would be about Peter regaining that hero spark again, and recreating himself in this new universe along with Miles. Venom would also be in this verse, too. Throughout the movie, we can drop hints at what happened to get Peter in this situation, but of course he wouldn't want to think about it; as trauma he encountered at such a young age would still be effecting him. Thus, you can get away with acknowledging the MCU in any way.

[TooFlyToFail]

You know Big Hero 6 is a Marvel property, right?

And it's sequel is a low budget television show....so yeah, they're cheap when it comes to good animated Marvel properties; even after proving successful.

[JKtheMac]

I know every news source is convinced that Disney take 5% of the takings for Spider-Man movies but they don’t. To quote the same article I quoted earlier (Wall Street Journal’s in depth piece on the deal)

“In a 2011 renegotiation designed to resolve years of behind-the-scenes legal disputes and provide Sony with much-needed cash, the Japanese company gave up its share of merchandise rights and Marvel, now owned by Disney, agreed to forego its 5% of film revenue, as well as making a one-time payment of $175 million and up to $35 million for each future film.”

This did not change when they added to this deal for the MCU arrangements.

So Disney do not take 5%. They did for Venom, they will for Morbius but not for Spider-Man.

I trust WSJ over Hollywood Reporter any day.