Dc 2004-2019

[Lee Stone]

While DC thought it was bold at the time (and honestly, it was), ditching the continuity with New52 in 2011 had some negative effects. And these were to be expected.

The main problem is that when you 'close the book' on a narrative, whether it's a series reaching an end, a character dying or passing on his/her mantle or a full on reboot of a character, franchise or universe, you create an 'end point'.
Collectors now have a goal for completion and fans will close themselves off to any future incarnations if the first one out the gate doesn't appeal to them.

Add to this that with DC, they had over 75 years of material that is still out there. And all the merchandising reflected the more iconic appearances of the Silver and Bronze Ages.
There's cartoons, movies, tv shows, action figures, games, underoos, t-shirts and all kinds of things that keep the classic versions of the characters in the public eye.

The characters post-Flashpoint were like 2.0 versions. Imitations of the originals.
And the originals had many more comics under their belts.

The original comics are also 'safer'.
You can get invested in a character and know that some creator isn't going to come along and turn them into a vegetable or have some d-list villain rape them out of nowhere.
Character assassination wasn't really much of a thing until Jason Todd's death and Hal Jordan's trip to psychoville.

[Noodle]

The New52 created just as much problems as it solved, though. It wasn't a 100% reboot. Batman and Green Lantern didn't even reboot, just continued the stories they were on pre-New52. Then trying to shove it all within a set number of year timeline screwed up stuff like the Bat Family hard.

They wanted to have their cake and eat it too by having all these iconic stories like The Death of Superman and the likes still happen despite it not working well within that small timeframe and then just shrugged off the inconsistencies as "It happened just different."

They should have just done a complete reboot. Either commit or don't.

I can't speak to the response to Crisis, but as for Hal going bad, the internet was a thing back then. Emerald Twilight and its fallout received plenty of hate and vitriol. So did the JSA's treatment during Zero Hour.

The early internet actually was absolutely responsible for HEAT (the pro-Hal fans who felt he got screwed by DC).

I know the internet was around then, but it was nowhere near the level it is now. Going from vocal arguments on an AOL board to directly harassing writers on Twitter is a vast difference.

[Fromper]

I know the internet was around then, but it was nowhere near the level it is now. Going from vocal arguments on an AOL board to directly harassing writers on Twitter is a vast difference.

https://www.forcesofgeek.com/2014/06...un-out-of.html

[Lee Stone]

https://www.forcesofgeek.com/2014/06...un-out-of.html

Everyone should read that and see the warning signs if they're starting to get too fanatical.

I agree that it sounded like they had good intentions from the start.
I mean we still say or hear things like “As Green Lantern fans, it is our goal to encourage and advocate the return and exoneration of Hal Jordan as Green Lantern, the restoration of the Green Lantern legends, and the revival of the honorable Green Lantern Corps.”
But instead of Hal Jordan, it's Wally West, Dick Grayson, Tim Drake, Barbara Gordon, Cassandra Cain, Stephanie Brown, John Stewart, Guy Gardner, Ted Kord, Conner Kent...

It's okay to want to see your fave characters shine, but there's a line that should not be crossed and it starts with a sense of ownership or entitlement where the 'fan' bullies creators to write what they want to read.
If you really want to be that in control, start writing your own comics.

Yes, I get upset because of Max Lord killing Ted Kord or Sue Dibney being killed while pregnant and retroactively raped by Dr. Light. These were outright character assassinations.
But I'm really more disappointed.
I would like to see them restored, but I'm not going to hound whoever is writing 'X Comic' and tell them how to do their job.

[Citizen Kane]

I would like to see them restored, but I'm not going to hound whoever is writing 'X Comic' and tell them how to do their job.

While I don't condone harassing creators, it becomes harder to feel sorry for them when the quality of storytelling continuously moves in a downward trend; the fans have had enough. DC and Marvel have both been shooting themselves in the foot, in this regard, by even allowing the fans a chance to voice their unified displeasure. There seems to be a trend where DC and Marvel continue to hire writers who are completely out of their element and disinterested with the comic book industry. As far as I'm concerned, as long as the comic book industry continues to adopt bad habits, they deserve every single bit of criticism they get.

[Fromper]

Everyone should read that and see the warning signs if they're starting to get too fanatical.

I agree that it sounded like they had good intentions from the start.

Exactly. I'm not trying to harrass the current DC employees about my favorite characters. I'm just reading my old collection, filling in the gaps in my back issues, and not buying or reading the new stuff. Voting with my dollars, as it were.

But back to the original thread topic. As I pointed out, in 1994, Hal Jordan fans were starting H.E.A.T. and sending death threats to DC's offices, yet DC still easily got more than half the votes in a fan survey of favorite comic book publisher, because so many of their other comics at the time were extremely well liked.

With all the whining about the many, MANY more problems with DC destroying fan favorite characters in recent years, does anyone think they'd crack the top 10 publishers if a similar survey were held today?

[CTTT]

I'm not saying or condoning harassing creators. Not at all. But there's a reason these characters like Dick's gen exist. Because people love them. We want to see them used not thrown into the garbage. We have a voice and deserve to be heard and listened to. On the other hand, how is mocking Nightwing fans on Twitter, shooting down Wally questions at conventions, saying how much you hate legacy characters and happy superhero families and whining about "people aren't reading our new stuff", basically being indifferent to the reading public, any better? It's stubbornness at this point.

[Vampire Savior]

The New 52 had a better chance of catching on if DC would have distributed to a larger market to bring in new fans. What I suspect happened is that DC peddled these new versions of the characters to the same old fanbase that was invested in the older versions, and that wasn't going to get over well. It's so elementary that I really wonder if these comic book people think any of this stuff through. They probably just threw a party because of the initial and predictable sales spike. Even with little things I do, I always think thoughts like, "Where is this project going to be in two years? In five years. I can't satisfactorily invest people with this much content. It will take x amount of content to do that and x amount of time to develop that."
Well, from what I remember hearing, DiDio's butt was on the line from his higher ups, so maybe he just pulled that stunt to get a quick sales spike and save his job. I guess it could have been a scenario like that.

As I see it, generally speaking, there's no point in making drastic changes to the characters like New 52 did unless there is a solid vehicle for putting the content in front of new faces who may not have had an interest in the superheroes as they were presented before. And lo, they reversed much of the New 52 after a relatively very short period of time. After Crisis happened, there was a healthy amount of new comic book fans coming in due to more distribution options and comics like G.I. Joe and Transformers enticing eager kids to get into the hobby.

[Noodle]

I'm not saying or condoning harassing creators. Not at all. But there's a reason these characters like Dick's gen exist. Because people love them. We want to see them used not thrown into the garbage. We have a voice and deserve to be heard and listened to. On the other hand, how is mocking Nightwing fans on Twitter, shooting down Wally questions at conventions, saying how much you hate legacy characters and happy superhero families and whining about "people aren't reading our new stuff", basically being indifferent to the reading public, any better? It's stubbornness at this point.

The same can be said of the third generation. Didio openly mocked fans at conventions about Spoiler until they eventually caved and brought her back. Almost the entire Young Justice generation was altered to the point where they had to backpedal and say they weren't those characters (Superboy and Kid Flash in Teen Titans), had 90% of their history changed (Tim Drake), or just didn't exist anymore (Cassandra Cain).

The problem isn't exclusive to the middle generation. Didio just doesn't like sidekicks I guess, and has open disdain for others (Grayson, Wally, Spoiler, Cain).