The Problems with the Crossover Universe Phenomenon

[Beaddle]

BP was definitely NOT a cliché superhero film. No Logan was not nominated for best picture LOOOOL. Deadpool more artistic than Black Panther-REALLY?????? You say the characters stayed the same through the movie how would you know since you don't really pay attention to female characters? You apparently missed a lot if you even saw it. I'm starting to feel like we're being trolled here.....

BP was a cliche film, boring, predictable and easy to figure out. I would even have looked passed that and like Avatar focus on the spectacle but the visuals were impossibly terrible. maybe it was something new for the mcu but cliche in a broader concept of comic films. Deadpool was more artistic, daring, original, independent and creative than black panther and the Oscars usually used to love that about films. It’s the reason wacky directors like Woody Allen and Tarantino got very far.
If this was about merit, Deadpool and Logan would have been nominated over black panther. Don't you find it strange that black panther was nominated for best picture when no comic films has? it must be about it being a black centric movie and the oscars now taking diversity seriously. It’s not about merit because there are other movies out there with better Oscar tick box checks than black panther.

I think Black Panther's oscar's nomination is more humiliating for the MCU than flattering. It exposes their incompetence because if this was again about merit, WB TDK and Fox Logan would be able to contend for best picture as they have more Oscar qualities to them than black panther, the other films in their mixed bag series that has more compelling stories and supreme technically film making qualities would get a best picture nomination over black panther.


List of deadpool's accolades

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...eadpool_(film)

I can proudly tell you Deadpool got all this accolades on the pure merits of the film. Can you tell me the same about black panther or does the oscar push diversity politics play a huge factor in its own accolades? if it does then Deadpool is objectively far more artistic than black panther can ever dream off. Most Awards should be about the artistic measurement of a film not what race or color is the cast, Unless the award is actually created for such like the NAACP Awards or The ALMA awards.

[Beaddle]

This actually isn't an MCU problem more than it is a filmmaking problem since there is an unwritten rule in cinema where characters somehow need a focal point to branch out from, a trope which had since bled into comics and cartoons. The concept of a cinematic universe only caused these to be brought to further light. You see examples of these best in the Fantastic Four films than any other movie where they try as best as they can to give Doom superpowers by having him affected by the cosmic ray bombardment rather than make him a genius sorcerer who runs on Final Fantasy style magitek. Somehow, the audience finds it more "believable" if the villain and hero are connected along with other side characters. Not to mention, you have the limits in film that aren't expressed in the books, mainly the limited run time. You can burn several hundred million for two hours of film, but you can spend decades writing a myth arc with nineteen separate narratives in a book and not even dent that.

But Iron Man and X-Men exists in the same comic universe and they are not tony stark's experiment. Dr doom and Hulk also take place in the same universe, Doom does not need gamma rays. You know one thing I least admire about the MCU? Their stories don't even try to be 30% as good as their comic source materials because they care more about crossovers. Games of thrones at least tried, so did Lord of the rings, so did harry potter. MCU at this point are not even about marvel comics anymore. They are using marvel characters in name only, what they are dependent cinematic crossover disney action figures that is guaranteed to make billions of dollars.

Audiences cannot finds it more believable as audiences are smarter than that. Do you want proof? X-Men 2, Spiderman 2 came out with less than a year apart, why didn't audiences mistake them as taking place in the same universe?

If they become experiment from tony's lab, how are mutantw anymore different than captain America? what makes them hated and feared as the next stage of human evolution, Which is something mcu has yet to tackle. this is how you create compelling fantastic stories that would be worthy of Oscars if the Oscars genuinely gave a crap about comic movies.

How something beyond as horrendous as mutants been nothing more than captain america's knock off in the mcu , so mcu can keep their crossover superficial stories when they easily have access to the much superior complex source material is beyond terrible for me or is this those famous traits we hear about how Disney has so much dumbed down marvel and star wars? Its the mcu formula at the very worst.


Trying to get through some of the comments, I really hope Spiderman now stays away from the MCU forever after his run as Iron boy and Ryan Renyolds walks away if Marvel goes Pg 13 and takes major control away from him. it ain't worth it.

[Cyke]

I think the only truth about the crossover universe thing is that they're tricky to make well and that the state of the franchises involved has little to do with it.

This is very true. The MCU started at a time when Marvel was still recovering from bankruptcy a decade prior. Now it's hard to imagine Marvel was ever in such a state to begin with.

BP was a cliche film, boring, predictable and easy to figure out.

I really want to read your thoughts and analysis, but you have really got to stop posting your opinion as if they're hard, scientific fact. It ends up undermining your argument even before you have a chance to get to the point.

[Jokerz79]

Here is a far brutal truth that relates to the topic.

X-men: Logan ,DOFP, X2, Deadpool, X-Men 1

Batman: Batman 89, Batman Returns, The Dark Knight, Batman Begins, Under the Redhood.

Superman: Superman 78, Superman Man 2, The death of superman

Spiderman: Spiderman 1, Spiderman 2, Spiderman 3, Into the Spiderverse.

None of these movies took place in any crossover universe. All films benefited as been the best of themselves than MCU has ever done , firstly for not been disney kid friendly juvenile movies, secondly, these films had more creative control which lead to a more appreciative film making quality to the formula structure that has been set in place for the MCU to maintain their crossovers.

As I said, the comments here are vague, I was waiting to here any reasonable justification of how anything good can come out of mutants becoming failed tony's stark experiment or magneto having no warfare past in the mcu because it removes or takes away from their crossover narrative. I guess the only defense on such a terrible take on the xmen would be high rotten tomatoes scores and box office. Yes, because high rotten tomatoes scores makes the sound of the movie look even as well-done as what X-Men 2 did with the mutant concept that was straight from the backbones of the comics that was not so crazy about crossovers. Not.

Every X film benefited from having access to every X character which is at least a quarter of the Marvel Universe.

Under the Red Hood was about the Bat Family again more than just that hero.

Spiderverse was literally about heroes from across the Multiverse uniting doesn't matter if all Spider characters it was still multiple characters coming together.

Even Death of Superman had the Justice League in it.

[Beaddle]

This is very true. The MCU started at a time when Marvel was still recovering from bankruptcy a decade prior. Now it's hard to imagine Marvel was ever in such a state to begin with.



I really want to read your thoughts and analysis, but you have really got to stop posting your opinion as if they're hard, scientific fact. It ends up undermining your argument even before you have a chance to get to the point.

I never said my opinions were facts, I gave my opinions about deadpool and Black Panther. I do really know how black panther would have been received if the circumstances were different thanks to the thousands of comics film before Black Panther.

Every X film benefited from having access to every X character which is at least a quarter of the Marvel Universe.

Every X character makes up the xmen universe, No X film benefited from having a spiderman character or the idea that they were part of this larger world. This was something introduced by nick fury at the end of iron man 1 that kicked off the crossover phenomenon.

Under the Red Hood was about the Bat Family again more than just that hero.

Like X-Men, Batman characters only. Not green lantern or superman characters.

You do realize that marvel and DC have self contained series with some spin off solos of the characters. this is why when marvel were selling , all spiderman characters went to sony, all xmen characters went to fox, all blade characters went to new line cinema and all hulk characters went to universal

Spiderverse was literally about heroes from across the Multiverse uniting doesn't matter if all Spider characters it was still multiple characters coming together.

Like X-men and Batman. its about spiderman's own universe and characters.

Even Death of Superman had the Justice League in it.

Superman 1 and 2 did not.

[CliffHanger2]

BP was a cliche film, boring, predictable and easy to figure out. I would even have looked passed that and like Avatar focus on the spectacle but the visuals were impossibly terrible. maybe its was something new for the mcu but cliche in a broader concept of comic films. Deadpool was more artistic, daring, original, independent and creative than black panther and the Oscars usually used to love that about films. It’s the reason wacky directors like Woody Allen and Tarantino got very far.
If this was about merit, Deadpool and Logan would have been nominated over black panther. Don't you find it strange that black panther was nominated for best picture when no comic films has? it must be about it being a black centric movie and the oscars now taking diversity seriously. It’s not about merit because there are other movies out there with better Oscar tick box checks than black panther.

I think Black Panther's oscar's nomination is more humiliating for the MCU than flattering. It exposes their incompetence because if this was again about merit, WB TDK and Fox Logan would be able to contend for best picture as they have more Oscar qualities to them than black panther, the other films in their mixed bag series that has more compelling stories and supreme technically film making qualities would get a best picture nomination over black panther.


List of deadpool's accolades

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...eadpool_(film)

I can proudly tell you Deadpool got all this accolades on the pure merits of the film. Can you tell me the same about black panther or does the oscar push diversity politics play a huge factor in its own accolades? if it does then Deadpool is objectively far more artistic than black panther can ever dream off. Most Awards should be about the artistic measurement of a film not what race or color is the cast, Unless the award is actually created for such like the NAACP Awards or The ALMA awards.

Deadpool should have gotten nominated for a Oscar? Okay argument over can't take you seriously at this point.

[Farealmer]

I can proudly tell you Deadpool got all this accolades on the pure merits of the film. Can you tell me the same about black panther or does the oscar push diversity politics play a huge factor in its own accolades? if it does then Deadpool is objectively far more artistic than black panther can ever dream off. Most Awards should be about the artistic measurement of a film not what race or color is the cast, Unless the award is actually created for such like the NAACP Awards or The ALMA awards.

So BP only got the nomination because it starred black people?

[Beaddle]

Deadpool should have gotten nominated for a Oscar? Okay argument over can't take you seriously at this point.

I never said Deadpool should be nominated for Oscars. I said if black panther was nominated, Deadpool would be more deserving compared to black panther as it has more oscar tick box checks.

To be honest I was quite surprised you brought up black panther was nominated for an oscar when you likely knew as well as I do, it was not nominated based on merit meaning we can't by default or from the get-go take black panther Oscar nomination seriously, meaning it has no real impact to this topic.

So BP only got the nomination because it starred black people?

Unless there have been other superhero movies to be nominated for best picture at the oscars in the past, the answer is Yes.

[CliffHanger2]

I never said Deadpool should be nominated for Oscars. I said if black panther was nominated, Deadpool would be more deserving compared to black panther as it has more oscar tick box checks.

To be honest I was quite surprised you brought up black panther was nominated for an oscar when you likely knew as well as I do, it was not nominated based on merit meaning we can by default or from the get-go take black panther Oscar nomination seriously, meaning it has no real impact to this topic.




Unless there have been other superhero movies to be nominated for best picture at the oscars the answer is Yes.

I wasn't the one who brought up the Oscar nomination. But by what you're saying here it's the same difference...can't take you serious.

[Beaddle]

I wasn't the one who brought up the Oscar nomination. But by what you're saying here it's the same difference...can't take you serious.

How many comic films have been nominated for best picture before Black Panther?

[Star_Jammer]

How many comic films have been nominated for best picture before The Dark Knight?

Perspective.

[Beaddle]

How many comic films have been nominated for best picture before The Dark Knight?.

I did not write this.

Perspective.

Blade, X-Men 1, Spiderman 1 , X-Men 2, Spiderman 2, Batman Begins, Sin City and Iron Man 1, all came before The Dark Knight. If Black Panther was nominated why didn't any of this moves including the dark knight get nominated. Kind of strange.

[CliffHanger2]

I did not write this.




Blade, X-Men 1, Spiderman 1 , X-Men 2, Spiderman 2, Batman Begins, Sin City and Iron Man 1, all came before The Dark Knight. If Black Panther was nominated why didn't any of this moves including the dark knight get nominated. Kind of strange.

It's kinda hard for a movie where the lead actor is barking like a dog the whole movie to get nominated for an Oscar.

[Beaddle]

It's kinda hard for a movie where the lead actor is barking like a dog the whole movie to get nominated for an Oscar.

If you are referring to Deadpool, He never barked like a dog. Now you would only be saying things not in the movie so I won't take this seriously either.

Although this was very uncomfortable to watch in black panther.



I found it kind of a bad racist stereotype of black people leaving in Africa. In 0.50-0.60 seconds, M'baku's tribe actually barks like a dog and he tells his guest if they talk anymore they would be fed to his ''chidren''. Shuri then addresses him as ''great gorilla'' in minute 1.20.

I personally don't think any movie that takes place in 2017 or post 2000s should ever associate black people with any animal regardless of the context it is used.

[CliffHanger2]

If you are referring to Deadpool, He never barked like a dog. Now you would only be saying things not in the movie so I won't take this seriously either.

Although this was very uncomfortable to watch in black panther.



I found it kind of a bad racist stereotype of black people leaving in Africa. In 0.50-0.60 seconds, M'baku's tribe actually barks like a dog and he tells his guest if they talk anymore they would be fed to his ''chidren''. Shuri then addresses him as ''great gorilla'' in minute 1.20.

I personally don't think any movie that takes place in 2017 or post 2000s should ever associate black people with any animal regardless of the context it is used.

No I was talking about TDK obviously. Funny story I was leaving the theater and a little kid yells out in his TDK voice "I have to use the bathroom!!!" Oscar yeah right.