The Problems with the Crossover Universe Phenomenon

[Immortal Weapon]

But each of these films have a feel of independence and individuality. We don’t get that with the MCU.

Have you watched any of those films? If you did you wouldn't be saying that about Annabelle 3

[XPac]

But each of these films have a feel of independence and individuality. We don’t get that with the MCU.

HOnestly I don't see that as much of an issue. Winter Soldier felt like a very different movie from Thor Ragnorok or Ant-Man. Despite existing in the same universe, the movies have different directors with different visions, and you can see it in the movie. You're not going to confuse a Coogler movie from a Waititi movie, despite both being in the MCU.

[Theleviathan]

But each of these films have a feel of independence and individuality. We don’t get that with the MCU.

Of all the criticisms of the MCU the "not individual enough" has to be the most preposterous. Just....preposterous.

When a friend told me that Ragnarok was "jarring" because of the change in tone I nodded and acknowledged that problem. Totally legit criticism. I don't see how, with a straight face, this criticism about a lack of individuality gets leveled. Yes, the movies use the same key elements (humor, action, emotion) but, um, that's what all epic movies pretty much do. The MCU is using the same formula that made Star Wars popular. And Indiana Jones. And you can keep filling in that blank. What they've done above and beyond that is build a world that is connected, aesthetically pleasing to watch, fun to listen to (their music choices are stupidly brilliant and on point), and just plain fun to go see.

But this criticism is bogus. I'm not even sure it's valid as an opinion because to arrive at it requires a kind of purposeful animosity.

[Beaddle]

So you think X2 was too politically loaded for Disney after watching Black Panther???? .

X2 is far more politically loaded than any MCU movie including black panther. This was what Singer did best because he hated the basic comic book movie stuff of just simply good and bad guys and big cgi fights and was lucky enough to direct xmen movies as xmen is the most political conscious comic series. MCU loves and uses the basic comic book stuff the most. the politics and themes are usually just added a little. In X-Men, they are the main highlights.

This is part of the reason X-Men movies were different, right from the first scene of X1 when we see a young Magneto in 1942 Nazi Germany.

Why do you think most X-Fans on the x-book forums have all said it would be wrong to remove magneto's origins just so the character that fit well in the MCU. 95% of them rejected the idea of changing magneto's origin's in the MCU,

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...-movies/page10

See this is the problem with ppl who talk that merit stuff most of the time. They only see merit in being white

When did I say I was white? I am not white.

I see merit in the art or content of the movie. merit cannot be truly defined by a person's race. Its frankly impossible that was why Martin Luther King said people should be judge by their content not by their skin color.

[Beaddle]

Yup and I think he missed alot of what Black Panther was a trying to say. Just the Mirrior Image of Tchalla and Killmonger. Tchalla was given everything. He was black excellence. Both parents, a strong connection to his culture and heritage, just a strong idea of who he is and his identity. Killmonger represented alot of African Americans, grew up with no father, cut off from his culture and heritage, no identity what so ever. So hes angry and lashing out. That was just the message Coogler was getting across with those two in comparison to each other. Was far from the only themes Coogler played with.

Here are some interesting details about the Black Panther movie

https://screenrant.com/black-panther...agneto-xavier/
''Black Panther: T'Challa & Killmonger Have 'Xavier/Magneto Chemistry''


https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/21/17036848/
''black-panther-killmonger-supervillain-comparison-magneto-xmen''

''Black Panther’s Killmonger is the MCU’s MagnetoThey share similar motives, methods, and emotional impact''


https://screenrant.com/michael-b-jor...revolutionary/
''Michael B. Jordan Has One Word to Perfectly Describe Erik Killmonger''

So basically Black Panther and Killmonger was MCU trying to retell the magneto and xavier story but not been all that great retelling it because Disney is terrible with MCU stories. Everything you said abut killmonger, Magneto already went through as a Jewish mutant and worse. the purpose of xmen was to reflect how a disfranchised race of people experience and try to handle prejudiced. from Jews, Africans, Latinos, Gypsies, Irish

If you want to talk politics. this is what happens when happens when magneto tries to save his people from genocide.



Things get more political in the end when Xavier basically and silently threatens the President of the united states about mutant rights.

What Black Panther lacked in the politics is depth and making it the main focus of the movie like X2 did, not to mention X2 screenplay was a lot more complex than black panther. disney would have rejected X2's screenplay for something lighter and more ''comic bookie'' and Black Panther is proof of it. I am even using X2 to make a point, X2 is not even as political as X-men first class or DOFP.

[CliffHanger2]

X2 is far more politically loaded than any MCU movie including black panther. This was what Singer did best because he hated the basic comic book movie stuff of just simply good and bad guys and big cgi fights and was lucky enough to direct xmen movies as xmen is the most political conscious comic series. MCU loves and uses the basic comic book stuff the most. the politics and themes are usually just added a little. In X-Men, they are the main highlights.

This is part of the reason X-Men movies were different, right from the first scene of X1 when we see a young Magneto in 1942 Nazi Germany.

Why do you think most X-Fans on the x-book forums have all said it would be wrong to remove magneto's origins just so the character that fit well in the MCU. 95% of them rejected the idea of changing magneto's origin's in the MCU,

https://community.cbr.com/showthread...-movies/page10




When did I say I was white? I am not white.

I see merit in the art or content of the movie. merit cannot be truly defined by a person's race. Its frankly impossible that was why Martin Luther King said people should be judge by their content not by their skin color.

Actions speak louder than words and by your posts I doubt you're taking MLK's words in practice. But yeah the opinion that X2 was somehow more politically loaded/ relevant than BP is just outlandish. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Agree to disagree...

[Beaddle]

Actions speak louder than words and by your posts I doubt you're taking MLK's words in practice.

I was taking MLK words in practice.

But yeah the opinion that X2 was somehow more politically loaded/ relevant than BP is just outlandish. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Agree to disagree...

Its not outlandish. its actually quite easy once you read the screenplays of both movies and watched the movies. I am entitled to my own opinion but please remember Michael B Jordan factually said himself black panther drew influence from XMEN politics, so it is far from outlandish.

it may have drawn influence but the movie did not reach the layers of depth that xmen movies usually does because Disney would never put heavy political themes over a more fun comic book script. MCU already exposed this problems in Captain America: Civil War long before Black Panther.

[CliffHanger2]

I was taking MLK words in practice.



Its not outlandish. its actually quite easy once you read the screenplays of both movies and watched the movies. I am entitled to my own opinion but please remember Michael B Jordan factually said himself black panther drew influence from XMEN politics, so it is far from outlandish.

it may have drawn influence but the movie did not reach the layers of depth that xmen movies usually does because Disney would never put heavy political themes over a more fun comic book script. MCU already exposed this problems in Captain America: Civil War long before Black Panther.

Haha you're funny man. I'm out.

[Beaddle]

Haha you're funny man. I'm out.

Don't forget the proof of evidence as you go out that black panther took some inspirations from X-Men politics. I am posting it to you directly.


Here are some interesting details about the Black Panther movie

https://screenrant.com/black-panther...agneto-xavier/
''Black Panther: T'Challa & Killmonger Have 'Xavier/Magneto Chemistry''


https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/21/17036848/
''black-panther-killmonger-supervillain-comparison-magneto-xmen''

''Black Panther’s Killmonger is the MCU’s MagnetoThey share similar motives, methods, and emotional impact''


https://screenrant.com/michael-b-jor...revolutionary/
''Michael B. Jordan Has One Word to Perfectly Describe Erik Killmonger''

[luprki]

Have you watched any of those films? If you did you wouldn't be saying that about Annabelle 3

Yes I seen them. But as far as the MCU, Black Panther is the only one that felt like it wasn’t a MCU movie

[WebLurker]

I did watch the movies, X-Men 2 already covered the issues of hatred, social injustice, racism, a disfranchised, group, grey politics, genocide Hitler like manics, having the two main characters Xavier and Magneto although friends on opposite sides mirroring Malcom X/MLK. I know some of you mcu fans have told me to ignore the comics but you do know X2 was largely taken from God loves man kills, one of the most political and social conscious written comics in history, that still inspires comic writers today? Its one of the best comics that highlights the social allegories of X-Men.

Thought that X2 took more from Ultimate X-Men's "Return to Weapon X"? Also, not sure what X2 covering such issues has to do with later superhero movies also offering their own social commentary.

X-Men 2 did it in a way disney never could because films like X2, Disney would find too loaded or too political in writing that the political overweighs the basic comic book stuff.

I have to admit that I find it interesting to hear someone think that Marvel is not political enough, given the ease of finding online groups, like Those Who Must Not Be Named, who complain about Marvel being too political. That said, I think Black Panther shows that they're willing to discuss stuff like this. We also saw social commentary in Captain Marvel. Heck, Far From Home's Mysterio and his misinformation schemes is quite timely, given how we've seen the masses willing to believe some of the most obvious lies fed to them by certain figures in power.

I was perhaps wrong to compare it to black panther. the main story of black panther was more about the two characters who wanted to be king of Wakanda. The main story in xmen is mutants and non mutants narrowing escaping a systematic holocaust because of one person insane racism, which is more cynical since his own son was a mutant although magneto was angry enough to reverse it on humans, Really complicated messed up stuff but challenging for a comic book drama. Usually in the mcu ,it will end with a bang of clashing big CGI battles. X2 was so ahead of its time compared to what Disney is doing right now.

Black Panther also had a lot of commentary on race relations, participation or not in the global community. It was also handled with more finesse then some of the X-Men movies, framing them as themes in a story about two successors to a throne (which also gave the main characters arcs that X2 didn't quite have), rather then being an outright parable. Just saying. )(Also, I think Ryan Coolgler showed himself to be a better filmmaker then Bryan Singer in terms of cinematography and such, but what do I know?)

Not the generation I remember of the 2000s. Also you are calling it corny but GOTG mix tape isn't? Rain drops are falling on my head was actually a major plot point in the story. it is not GOTG 2 mix tape that was about fun and showing how cool the characters are.

How was the "Raindrops" song a "major plot point?" It underscored a specific scene to set the tone. A lot of the "Guardians 2" songs did have a lot more relevance to the movie in terms of the subject matter; "Brandy" and "My Sweet Lord" foreshadowed the story's twist and turns while still setting the tone for their specific scenes. Cat Steven's "Father and Son" was masterfully used. Some choices were just "for fun" (I don't think "Come a Little Bit Closer" has any deeper meaning to its scene beyond telling us "have fun enjoying the carnage"), but the mix tapes were well put together. Heck, I remember an old fan theory that the mixtape for the first movie was a coded message about Peter's father, and it actually turned out that reality was so close to the theory it's scary.

It happened because I experienced it , that scene was almost equivalent to the famous upside down kiss in spiderman 2002.

As the cool Star Wars droid said: "I find that answer vague and unconvincing." (In any event, I don't think it's stood the passage of time, like the iconic kiss or the infamous me dancing.)

But each of these films have a feel of independence and individuality. We don’t get that with the MCU.

We've gotten space operas, political thrillers, fantasy, science fiction, war movies, teen coming of age movies, buddy cop-style movies, solo movies, team movies, heist movies, time heist movies. What more do you want, a musical?

[Midvillian1322]

Thought that X2 took more from Ultimate X-Men's "Return to Weapon X"? Also, not sure what X2 covering such issues has to do with later superhero movies also offering their own social commentary.



I have to admit that I find it interesting to hear someone think that Marvel is not political enough, given the ease of finding online groups, like Those Who Must Not Be Named, who complain about Marvel being too political. That said, I think Black Panther shows that they're willing to discuss stuff like this. We also saw social commentary in Captain Marvel. Heck, Far From Home's Mysterio and his misinformation schemes is quite timely, given how we've seen the masses willing to believe some of the most obvious lies fed to them by certain figures in power.



Black Panther also had a lot of commentary on race relations, participation or not in the global community. It was also handled with more finesse then some of the X-Men movies, framing them as themes in a story about two successors to a throne (which also gave the main characters arcs that X2 didn't quite have), rather then being an outright parable. Just saying. )(Also, I think Ryan Coolgler showed himself to be a better filmmaker then Bryan Singer in terms of cinematography and such, but what do I know?)



How was the "Raindrops" song a "major plot point?" It underscored a specific scene to set the tone. A lot of the "Guardians 2" songs did have a lot more relevance to the movie in terms of the subject matter; "Brandy" and "My Sweet Lord" foreshadowed the story's twist and turns while still setting the tone for their specific scenes. Cat Steven's "Father and Son" was masterfully used. Some choices were just "for fun" (I don't think "Come a Little Bit Closer" has any deeper meaning to its scene beyond telling us "have fun enjoying the carnage"), but the mix tapes were well put together. Heck, I remember an old fan theory that the mixtape for the first movie was a coded message about Peter's father, and it actually turned out that reality was so close to the theory it's scary.



As the cool Star Wars droid said: "I find that answer vague and unconvincing." (In any event, I don't think it's stood the passage of time, like the iconic kiss or the infamous me dancing.)



We've gotten space operas, political thrillers, fantasy, science fiction, war movies, teen coming of age movies, buddy cop-style movies, solo movies, team movies, heist movies, time heist movies. What more do you want, a musical?

Lol the idea Black Panther despite the themes already posted wasnt as politicaly charged as an Xmen movie is the nail in the coffin for me. Theres no actual debate or reasoning going on.

[Jokerz79]

Thought that X2 took more from Ultimate X-Men's "Return to Weapon X"? Also, not sure what X2 covering such issues has to do with later superhero movies also offering their own social commentary.



I have to admit that I find it interesting to hear someone think that Marvel is not political enough, given the ease of finding online groups, like Those Who Must Not Be Named, who complain about Marvel being too political. That said, I think Black Panther shows that they're willing to discuss stuff like this. We also saw social commentary in Captain Marvel. Heck, Far From Home's Mysterio and his misinformation schemes is quite timely, given how we've seen the masses willing to believe some of the most obvious lies fed to them by certain figures in power.



Black Panther also had a lot of commentary on race relations, participation or not in the global community. It was also handled with more finesse then some of the X-Men movies, framing them as themes in a story about two successors to a throne (which also gave the main characters arcs that X2 didn't quite have), rather then being an outright parable. Just saying. )(Also, I think Ryan Coolgler showed himself to be a better filmmaker then Bryan Singer in terms of cinematography and such, but what do I know?)



How was the "Raindrops" song a "major plot point?" It underscored a specific scene to set the tone. A lot of the "Guardians 2" songs did have a lot more relevance to the movie in terms of the subject matter; "Brandy" and "My Sweet Lord" foreshadowed the story's twist and turns while still setting the tone for their specific scenes. Cat Steven's "Father and Son" was masterfully used. Some choices were just "for fun" (I don't think "Come a Little Bit Closer" has any deeper meaning to its scene beyond telling us "have fun enjoying the carnage"), but the mix tapes were well put together. Heck, I remember an old fan theory that the mixtape for the first movie was a coded message about Peter's father, and it actually turned out that reality was so close to the theory it's scary.



As the cool Star Wars droid said: "I find that answer vague and unconvincing." (In any event, I don't think it's stood the passage of time, like the iconic kiss or the infamous me dancing.)



We've gotten space operas, political thrillers, fantasy, science fiction, war movies, teen coming of age movies, buddy cop-style movies, solo movies, team movies, heist movies, time heist movies. What more do you want, a musical?

Pryde and Doom the Musical: A Phantom of the Opera type story. Kitty doesn't join the X-Men she goes to dance academy and beneath the old Opera Hall is Victor Von Doom scared since his days as a student.

[Star_Jammer]

Pryde and Doom the Musical: A Phantom of the Opera type story. Kitty doesn't join the X-Men she goes to dance academy and beneath the old Opera Hall is Victor Von Doom scared since his days as a student.

Pryde and Prejudice: One Jewish, mutant, bisexual woman’s musical journey through life.

[Beaddle]

Thought that X2 took more from Ultimate X-Men's "Return to Weapon X"? Also, not sure what X2 covering such issues has to do with later superhero movies also offering their own social commentary.

It's a nice try but that qualifies as wolverine's personal sub arc in the movie. The main inspiration for the entire movie factually came from God Loves man Kills confirmed by the director and writers and its a common knowledge known by marvel fans. X2 is still only 70% as good though as X2 did miss more arcs in the comics, more arcs that were political and socially conscious. There were N words, to make a point about mutant racism, Styrker actually having a religious background, attempt assassinations of TV to prove a point to ignorant humans. the comics was still better than X2. The worst thing is Disney would never touch the story. they will probably make it a comedy or water it down the way civil war was watered down.

I have to admit that I find it interesting to hear someone think that Marvel is not political enough, given the ease of finding online groups, like Those Who Must Not Be Named, who complain about Marvel being too political. That said, I think Black Panther shows that they're willing to discuss stuff like this. We also saw social commentary in Captain Marvel. Heck, Far From Home's Mysterio and his misinformation schemes is quite timely, given how we've seen the masses willing to believe some of the most obvious lies fed to them by certain figures in power.

I have never seen or heard anyone say marvel as in MCU movies are too political. MCU gets more complaints and critical praise for their jokes and light heartedness. MCU movies are mostly seen as fun. that is what mainly defines their movie in the media and to fans If there was any complaints of politics in mcu, it was about black panther raking up awards and getting praised for political correct reasons not for artistic reasons. This is the reason many including myself felt it was more humiliating to the mcu that Black Panther was nominated for best picture. That is the most political moment in the mcu , and it is not a good one because it stripped away merit. I was very disappointed in the politics of Black Panther because it was hardly there and never explored in great details.one of two vague references and that was it. Very Disney.

Black Panther also had a lot of commentary on race relations, participation or not in the global community. It was also handled with more finesse then some of the X-Men movies, framing them as themes in a story about two successors to a throne (which also gave the main characters arcs that X2 didn't quite have), rather then being an outright parable. Just saying. )(Also, I think Ryan Coolgler showed himself to be a better filmmaker then Bryan Singer in terms of cinematography and such, but what do I know?)

The movie made little reference to race or prejudice relations. Its not even the main story of the movie compared to X2, where that is the main plot of the film, even sub plots. bobby parents abandoned him for being a mutant, to the vague reference of Pyro, who was also abandoned by his parents for being a mutant, nightcrawler's talking about the racism he experienced and how he uses faith to deal with it, the Revelation of what became of jason stryker's son and a possible mutant cure, Stryker just been Adolf Hitler at this point using the exact same military approach to wipe out a particular group of people , the president taking rash decisions out of fear until xavier confronts him about the politics of mutants and humans in the end, one of the things that sticks out is when Xavier says .''there has been looses on both sides'' but he the president can make a better future of both mutants and humans, this was before the president addressed the nation after almost everyone on the planet was killed. More about more magneto and xavier fighting with eachother on the salvation of the mutant race and mutant rights, X2 was very layered on the political and social commentary as that is the main plot. Black panther wasn't it all. its a generic mcu movie that follows the same script of thor.

From the very first scene of X2, the main political point was there, after nightcrawler attacks the white house, he leaves a message for the president called ''mutant freedom now''. that is what defines the story to the end, that is not the same story in black panther, the story in black panther is about a king and a throne and him getting his thrown back so that puts black panther more similar to thor than xmen despite michael b jordan comments about black panther been more like xmen in politics. it isn't because Disney would never allow that type of comic book story. X2 is not a disney film. It is beyond a disney movie.

Also I don't find Ryan Coolger to be a better talent for now, the hard evidence is not there. Maybe in 7 years when he has done more films. If he was more talented how do you explain the really bad technical scenes of black panther to that of X2 that still hold up better than all the mcu movies after 14 years? Not even infifnty war and endgame has the film making quality of X2 as I have shown in other threads and we hear the Russos are the best in the MCU with their basic alien plots and animated looking visuals How do you explain the truly predictable plot of black panther? Singer already made one of the greatest films of all time, the unusual suspects, that carried over greatly to the xmen films, Ryan has yet to achieve that feat. Singer came back for DOFP. Another supreme film making quality film to black panther with even deeper politics. You may make think Coolger is more talented as an mcu fan but singer's body of work says different. We can have this debate again in 7-10 years when Coolger has done more films and grown more as a director. Geez with the pro mcu vs xmen vs dc talking point. What next? The Russos are more talented than James Cameron?

Finally the last arc of black panther was killmonger fighting to keep throne with some AI Dinosaurs that looked like a bad cgi sequence of Transformers. the last arc of xmen 2 was making sure neither mutants and humans are systematically not killed off like Hitler tried to kill jews the last arc was basically a genocide systematic complex warfare mentality of Magneto and Styker but like all warfares, everyone gets hurt. Black Panther is another generic giant big cgi battle to X2 try tries to recreate jews in world world 2, something that was later achieved at the beginning of DOFP.


No. black panther does not have 1/10th the amount of politics or social commentary of X2. very disappointing for a movie that got so much hype. X2 is still more lenient to other xmen movies. First class alone taking place in the 60s, cold war, civil rights moments, nazi hunting, nuclear weapons feminism, mutant and proud, and perhaps the best movie that expands upon the xavier vs magneto philosophy , I cant even put it in the same sentence as black panther as a political movie. It just makes me more angry at disney.

If you want to compare any politics and social consciousness to an xmen movie that would seem more equal, it would the the Nolan batman films. what nolan like singer did due to their superficial hatred for comic books is to down play all the comic bookie parts and put the grounded human issues front center in the stories. when we say these movies are grounded, its not because they have more drama or their visuals are not like avngers/gotg/ant-man/black panther animations, its the external commentary that is right there in your face. MCU does things the opposite way and black panther is no different. Also its either the x-fans on xmen fourms did not watch black panther or saw it and did not think much of it because they are all scared of how Disney would handled the politics in xmen stories and have made threads about it, which I too have expressed my concerns.


GOTG Problems is the jokes and the tone, rain drops are falling on my head came after a time when peter gave up being spiderman and wanted to be human, it was a major development story arc in the drama going on in spiderman 2. the mix tape is part of what makes gotg apparently cool, its not a major story point that is meant to highlight a serious character study arc. Spiderman 2 used it better than GOTG. Truly, really. the less jokes and drama tone of Spiderman 2 helps a lot. GOTG 2 is basically a parody movie of the first film at this point.

Spiderman 2 has stood the test of time more than any music use in MCU movies. the movie did not benefit from social media or harsh tags, which makes it more impressive to GOTG when the music does tend to trend on twitter and would get more exposure.

We've gotten space operas, political thrillers, fantasy, science fiction, war movies, teen coming of age movies, buddy cop-style movies, solo movies, team movies, heist movies, time heist movies. What more do you want, a musical?

All of these movies in one way or other still has to subjected to a disney structured formula. we are just discussing black panther as supposedly a political groundbreaking comic movie but Once you look into the film, you would see mcu has already done it before in another one of their movies because all those mcu movies are still harmonized.

People are trying to convince me how MCU is so different from the other but at the same time are now try to sell the idea deadpool can be pg 13 so it can fit well in the MCU. Its a contradiction.

Do I want a musical, Does Deadpool count as one? Golden Globe nominee for best comedy drama/musical 2017 . A merit given nominee.