The Problems with the Crossover Universe Phenomenon

[WebLurker]

It's a nice try but that qualifies as wolverine's personal sub arc in the movie. The main inspiration for the entire movie factually came from God Loves man Kills confirmed by the director and writers and its a common knowledge known by marvel fans.

Okay, so I was mistaken.

X2 is still only 70% as good though as X2 did miss more arcs in the comics, more arcs that were political and socially conscious. There were N words, to make a point about mutant racism, Styrker actually having a religious background, attempt assassinations of TV to prove a point to ignorant humans. the comics was still better than X2.

Huh.

The worst thing is Disney would never touch the story. they will probably make it a comedy or water it down the way civil war was watered down.

Maybe. (How was Civil War watered down? My understanding was that it actually shored up the story and gave more nuance to an event that the author admiited was just an excuse to have the heroes fight for the rule of cool.)

I have never seen or heard anyone say marvel as in MCU movies are too political.

I was thinking of the Comicsgaters who've begun to turn on the MCU for political reasons (research the Captain Marvel review bombing attempts and "Alita Challenge" if you want to see the specifics).

MCU gets more complaints and critical praise for their jokes and light heartedness. MCU movies are mostly seen as fun. that is what mainly defines their movie in the media and to fans

If that's true, wonder why the DC movies were so disliked for not being like the MCU (gritty, dark, largely humorless) and then became liked when they came closer to the MCU style?

If there was any complaints of politics in mcu, it was about black panther raking up awards and getting praised for political correct reasons not for artistic reasons. This is the reason many including myself felt it was more humiliating to the mcu that Black Panther was nominated for best picture. That is the most political moment in the mcu , and it is not a good one because it stripped away merit.[/quote]

I was very disappointed in the politics of Black Panther because it was hardly there and never explored in great details.one of two vague references and that was it. Very Disney.

The movie made little reference to race or prejudice relations. Its not even the main story of the movie compared to X2, where that is the main plot of the film, even sub plots. bobby parents abandoned him for being a mutant, to the vague reference of Pyro, who was also abandoned by his parents for being a mutant, nightcrawler's talking about the racism he experienced and how he uses faith to deal with it, the Revelation of what became of jason stryker's son and a possible mutant cure, Stryker just been Adolf Hitler at this point using the exact same military approach to wipe out a particular group of people , the president taking rash decisions out of fear until xavier confronts him about the politics of mutants and humans in the end, one of the things that sticks out is when Xavier says .''there has been looses on both sides'' but he the president can make a better future of both mutants and humans, this was before the president addressed the nation after almost everyone on the planet was killed. More about more magneto and xavier fighting with eachother on the salvation of the mutant race and mutant rights, X2 was very layered on the political and social commentary as that is the main plot. Black panther wasn't it all. its a generic mcu movie that follows the same script of thor.

From the very first scene of X2, the main political point was there, after nightcrawler attacks the white house, he leaves a message for the president called ''mutant freedom now''. that is what defines the story to the end, that is not the same story in black panther, the story in black panther is about a king and a throne and him getting his thrown back so that puts black panther more similar to thor than xmen despite michael b jordan comments about black panther been more like xmen in politics. it isn't because Disney would never allow that type of comic book story. X2 is not a disney film. It is beyond a disney movie.

No. black panther does not have 1/10th the amount of politics or social commentary of X2. very disappointing for a movie that got so much hype. X2 is still more lenient to other xmen movies. First class alone taking place in the 60s, cold war, civil rights moments, nazi hunting, nucelaer weapons feminism, mutant and proud, and perhaps the best movie that expands upon the xavier vs magneto philosophy , I cant even put it in the same sentence as black panther as a political movie.

I don't think so; "race or prejudice relations" was the Killmonger's motivating factor, the thing that drove his endgame, and we're shown in very explicit detail why that is (at least as much as why the Holocaust defines who Magneto is and why he does what he does). It also factors into Black Panther himself in trying to work out what kind of ruler he will be. Everett Ross is literally called a "colonizer" at one point. One can debate how well it's all executed, but there is as much there as at least some of the X-Men movies.

If you want to compare any politics and social consciousness to an xmen movie that would seem more equal, it would the the Nolan batman films. what nolan like singer did due to their superficial hatred for comic books is to down play all the comic bookie parts and put the grounded human issues front center in the stories. MCU does things the opposite way and black panther is no different. Also its either the x-fans on xmen fourms did not watch black panther or saw it and did not think much of it because they are all scared of how Disney would handled the politics in xmen stories and have made threads about it, which I too have expressed my concerns.

I don't know what to say to that.

Also I don't find Ryan Coolger to be a better talent for now, the hard evidence is not there. Maybe in 7 years when he has done more films. If he was more talented how do you explain the really bad technical scenes of black panther to that of X2 that still hold up better than all the mcu movies after 14 years? Not even infifnty war and endgame has the film making quality as X2 as I have shown in other threads and we here the Russos are the best im he MCU. How do you explain the cliche predictable plot of black panther? Singer already made one of the greatest films of all time, the unusual suspects, that carried over greatly to the xmen films, Ryan has yet to achieve that feat. Singer came back for DOFP. Another supreme film making quality film to black panther with even deeper politics. You may make think Coolger is more talented as an mcu fan but singer's body of work says different. We can have this debate again in 7-10 years when Coolger has done more films and grown more as a director. he is still young. Geez with the pro mcu vs xmen vs dc talking point. What next? The Russos are more talented than James Cameron?

Finally the last arc of black panther was killmonger fighting to keep throne with some AI Dinosaurs that looked like a bad cgi sequence of Transformers. the last arc of xmen 2 was making sure neither mutants and humans are systematically not killed off like Hitler tried to kill jews the last arc was basically a genocide systematic complex warfare mentality of Magneto and Styker but like all warfares, everyone gets hurt. Black Panther is another generic giant big cgi battle to X2 try tries to recreate world world 2, something that was later achieved at the beginning of DOFP.

My intended point was that I think Black Panther was a better filmed movie then X2; more creative use of the camera, using visuals to show us stuff (the two visions, for example), that kind of thing. Mileage may vary. (Also, the last act of that movie was to prevent Killmonger from attacking the rest of the world in the name of black supremacy, not as different from X2 as you're suggesting.)

GOTG Problems is the jokes and the tone, rain drops are falling on my head came after a time when peter gave up being spiderman and wanted to be human, it was a major development story arc in the drama going on in spiderman 2. the mix tape is part of what makes gotg apparently cool, its not a major story point that is meant to highlight a serious character study arc. Spiderman 2 used it better than GOTG. Truly, really. the less jokes and drama tone of Spiderman 2 helps a lot. GOTG 2 is basically a parody movie of the first film at this point.

I stand by my original point, which I don't think you're that interested in, seeing as you're just repeating what you said before. In any event, I stand by what I said and I think you are dead wrong on this point.

Spiderman 2 has stood the test of time more than any music use in MCU movies. the movie did not benefit from social media or harsh tags, which makes it more impressive to GOTG when the music does tend to trend on twitter and would get more exposure.

Well, Danny Elfman is considered one of the best in the business. Course, the MCU has also employed the likes of Alan Silvestri, Michael Giacchino, and Henry Jackman, so they're not hurting for talent, either. The Avengers theme will probably end up there with the classic Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man themes. Other stuff, who knows, but there it is.

[Beaddle]

Okay, so I was mistaken.



.

I already said that it was based on god loves man kills on another forum thread to you . I think the ''does anyone hate mcu thread''. when I said alien invasions comic stories are very generic to X2- god loves man kills where the main story is about racism against a group and prejudice. It felt like kind of a down play. nice try though.

Huh.

Its Elementary. the movies and tv shows would never be as good as the books. xmen, harry potter, lotr, game of thrones, spiderman you name it. Live action adaption has hardly ever been as good but you can try to be 70% as good as the books. this is where I rate X2. MCU is only 30% as good because they care more about disney stories than marvel comics. no wonder you have been telling me to ignore the comics. I can't.

I don't think so; "race or prejudice relations" was the Killmonger's motivating factor, the thing that drove his endgame, and we're shown in very explicit detail why that is (at least as much as why the Holocaust defines who Magneto is and why he does what he does). It also factors into Black Panther himself in trying to work out what kind of ruler he will be. Everett Ross is literally called a "colonizer" at one point. One can debate how well it's all executed, but there is as much there as at least some of the X-Men movies.

its not pretty much in the film as a motivator, nor is it shown in explicit details. the depth is not there. killmonger barely talks in the movie for more than half the time. he is not even present at all.. when he comes back and reveals himself, he takes his throne. lays out some plans , says a two lines about racism and is quickly defeated by black panther with the most awful cgi battle. generic. Magneto talks a lot it and is very layered in his philopshsy. it is what defines magneto, killmomger in the movies, is more of a prodigal child narrative. He should be compared to Loki, not Magneto. hm, loki the mcu forumla too not magneto.

We don't truly need to debate how one is executed, at least it won't be the case in film-making and screen writing academia as the screenplay gives it away. if black panther was an xmen movie, it would be seen as okayish. X2 political and social content is richer. if you think I am bluffing. read both scripts down here.

https://www.springfieldspringfield.c...2-x-men-united

https://www.scriptslug.com/script/black-panther-2018

Its an easy giveaway which scripts is far heavier in the politics with more social plot to unpack as I said even the sub plots of bobby , jason and nightcrawler is mostly about social allegories. killmonger ''black supremacy'' is an after thought in the film that is my point. his main focus is getting the throne. everyone know the homo-superior catch phrase in xmen movies because Magneto talks about it explicit, wolverine just wants him to shut up.

My intended point was that I think Black Panther was a better filmed movie then X2; more creative use of the camera, using visuals to show us stuff (the two visions, for example), that kind of thing. Mileage may vary. (Also, the last act of that movie was to prevent Killmonger from attacking the rest of the world in the name of black supremacy, not as different from X2 as you're suggesting.)

NO. not at all.lol. Black panther is not even better filmed than endgame or infifnty war and X2 has a better film quality to those movies as you kind of already admitted yourself black panther is not on the same lane as X2 in film making quality. X2's film quality came with what the best of film world had to offer at that time and Singer used all the resources to the limits. Its why X2 still looks more polished and regal to the dull animated looking mcu movies, you can tell are done by disney. X2 was artistically done. black panther was processed factory made. Blame disney for this. black panther is above ant man and captain marvel , its somewhere around Thor 1 and Spiderman Homecoming and its the worst mcu cgi film to date. a trope MCU relies on a lot.

If you want to compare any movie to X2 as a possible better made film, the nolan batman movies are your best bet because they basically follow the same much less cliche formula including making sure their visual don't look like animations and their world is as realistic as it can be and that includes lots of camera work to create illusions that sells the idea that that although this people have super powers and where bat costumes, I can buy them walking around my street. realism.

This is better filmed? Geez, No, OOO. LOLthis is terrible.

I stand by my original point, which I don't think you're that interested in, seeing as you're just repeating what you said before. In any event, I stand by what I said and I think you are dead wrong on this point.

your oringal point has no impact on spiderman 2 because music is used differently. Spiderman 2 uses it better for the audiences to get a real inside in what is going on in peter's head. GOTG music is shallow. Maybe mcu wanted to do something different but it does not come off that way with their GOTG movies as they have the most reputation of the humor comedy non taken seriously marvel movies.

Well, Danny Elfman is considered one of the best in the business. Course, the MCU has also employed the likes of Alan Silvestri, Michael Giacchino, and Henry Jackman, so they're not hurting for talent, either. The Avengers theme will probably end up there with the classic Superman, Batman, and Spider-Man themes. Other stuff, who knows, but there it is.

The Avengers themes gets a lot of help from this social media age so it is hard to compare. Also this was about the character study of rain drops are falling on my head that is done for story reasons. X-men's main score is one of the most famous comic scores, usually gets mocked in the bad xmen movies like X3 and Apocalypse for disrespecting it because that score captured a dramatic movie so well and was about the chills. One of the highlights of DOFP, the opening score, people said...yeah. Singer is definitely back.

I think the most famous superhero scores would be the xmen score, sam raimi spidemran score and avengers score though with benefits from this digital and social media youtube age that xmen and spiderman did not have in the early 2000s. I don't remember the batman theme unless this is form the 1992 animation. Nolan was not a score guy until Inception. Superman has the most iconic theme obviously but really I care more about the overall film making qualities of movies. xmen and spiderman have benefited more from by staying away from the crossover formula that has crippled mcu movies including Avengers.

[WebLurker]

I already said that it was based on god loves man kills on another forum thread to you . I think the ''does anyone hate mcu thread''. when I said alien invasions comic stories are very generic to X2- god loves man kills where the main story is about racism against a group and prejudice. It felt like kind of a down play. nice try though.

Think you misread me; I do know that X2 was officially based on "God Loves, Man Kills" (I have the fricking BluRay of the movie, with all the nice documentaries). What I thought was that they'd also borrowed from "Return to Weapon X." Thinking it over, I recall reading an opinion online that, while the movie was officially based on "God Loves, Man Kills," it seemed to that poster that it had more in common with "Return to Weapon X." Faulty memories made it into something more. (Whether X2 had more in common with one or the other may be a matter of opinion.)

Its Elementary. the movies and tv shows would never be as good as the books. xmen, harry potter, lotr, game of thrones, spiderman you name it. Live action adaption has hardly ever been as good but you can try to be 70% as good as the books. this is where I rate X2. MCU is only 30% as good because they care more about disney stories than marvel comics. no wonder you have been telling me to ignore the comics. I can't.

How do you figure that?

(As far as movies considered better then the books, Princess Brideand Big Hero 6 come to mind. Maybe Jurassic Park, depending on which elements are more important to you?.)

I think the most famous superhero scores would be the xmen score, sam raimi spidemran score and avengers score though with benefits from this digital and social media youtube age that xmen and spiderman did not have in the early 2000s. I don't remember the batman theme unless this is form the 1992 animation. Nolan was not a score guy until Inception. Superman has the most iconic theme obviously but really I care more about the overall film making qualities of movies. xmen and spiderman have benefited more from by staying away from the crossover formula that has crippled mcu movies including Avengers.

Yeah, that'd be Danny Elfman's music from the original movie, which was actually what I was thinking of. Not sure why you think the X-Men score belongs on the classics list, but you would be the first I know of to put them there.

[Beaddle]

Think you misread me; I do know that X2 was officially based on "God Loves, Man Kills" (I have the fricking BluRay of the movie, with all the nice documentaries). What I thought was that they'd also borrowed from "Return to Weapon X." Thinking it over, I recall reading an opinion online that, while the movie was officially based on "God Loves, Man Kills," it seemed to that poster that it had more in common with "Return to Weapon X." Faulty memories made it into something more. (Whether X2 had more in common with one or the other may be a matter of opinion.)



:

You don't read the comics as you said. although I don't know how you misread me, I said it many times on another thread.

How do you figure that?

(As far as movies considered better then the books, Princess Brideand Big Hero 6 come to mind. Maybe Jurassic Park, depending on which elements are more important to you?.)

its still a rare feat for movies to be better than the books. 90% of the time, they are not.

Yeah, that'd be Danny Elfman's music from the original movie, which was actually what I was thinking of. Not sure why you think the X-Men score belongs on the classics list, but you would be the first I know of to put them there.

Given that some of you did not know how famous rain drops were falling on my head was, I don't expect you to remember the opening theme of xmen that is basally a punching bag now.

This is one of the most famous comic scores. Perhaps the most famous of the 2000s.

[Star_Jammer]

The X-Men movie intro theme is recognizable to me because I’ve watched those movies dozens of times each, and I like many of the XCU films. But I really doubt it’s an iconic theme to the average movie-watcher.

It’s important to not conflate the two.

The X-Men TAS theme is probably more recognizable, at least for a certain age group.

[Beaddle]

The X-Men movie intro theme is recognizable to me because I’ve watched those movies dozens of times each, and I like many of the XCU films. But I really doubt it’s an iconic theme to the average movie-watcher.

Avengers is the main theme of marvel studios, an entire studio so it is bigger in scope. Avengers is also the biggest crossover event in films, meaning the themes defines most of their other movies. iron man, gotg, thor, captain America, spiderman. It's empowered by the disney machine and this age of social media and youtube where people have more access to music, so the avengers themes has all the perks that xmen or raimi spiderman cant even dream off. X-Men theme never benefited from those factors. its just your standard good comic score that was very recognizable.

[Star_Jammer]

Avengers is the main theme of marvel studios, an entire studio so it is bigger in scope. Avengers is also the biggest crossover event in films, meaning the themes defines most of their other movies. iron man, gotg, thor, captain America, spiderman. It's empowered by the disney machine and this age of social media and youtube where people have more access to music, so the avengers themes has all the perks that xmen or raimi spiderman cant even dream off. X-Men theme never benefited from those factors. its just your standard good comic score that was very recognizable.

So you agree that it’s recognizable to those that already cared about it? Your whataboutism doesn’t even attempt to refute my point, so I assume you’re quoting in agreement.

I didn’t say any MCU theme songs were outstanding (I kind of agree here on MCU film scores), so I don’t know why you went on a long-winded rant other than to say things you’ve already said. I didn’t even mention the MCU film scores at all in my post. Lol

[KNIGHT OF THE LAKE]

I don't think you can really make a correlation here. Spider-Man, Iron Man and Captain America all made over a billion dollars. As did lesser known (at the time) characters like Black Panther and Captain Marvel.

We can maybe argue your arguement applies to DC as they seem to have much greater difficulty pulling off a cohensive shared universe (though that sort of sounds like a cop out). But it doesn't appear to be an issue with marvel at all.

Two things you have to consider about both of those films.

1. Black Panther was right before Infinity War and a big part of Infinity War was slated to take place in Wakanda so that became an important film. Captain Marvel was right before Endgame and it was billed as a film that led into Endgame and was neccessary to it.

2. They were the first films that were led by a minority and a female character and were heavily marketed off of being groundbreaking in the MCU for that.

Neither Ant Man film got close to 1 billion. Thor has never done it despite being a major Avenger. Neither Guardians did it.

The only solo's that did it were.

1. Iron Man 3. First film post Avengers and heavily marketed as being the fallout from that.

2. Captain America: Winter Soldier. This was basically an Avengers film imo so I don't know if you can really even count it.

3. Black Panther. The film right before Infinity Wars and was touted as having characters that played a massive role in that crossover.

4. Captain Marvel. The film right before Endgame and was touted as having characters that played a massive role in that crossover.

5. Spider-Man: Far From Home. The film immediately after Endgame and was billed as the fallout from it.

There's something in common with every single one of these. Each one was either directly before or after an Avengers film. Each one was heavily marketed as being relevant to the Avengers film it was close to (Captain Marvel and Black Panther being lead ins, Iron Man and Spider-Man being the fallout). The only exception to this is Civil War which had the entire Avengers cast fighting each other and was a psuedo Avengers film more than a solo Cap film.

The fact that the only solo films crossing a billion have that in common, makes me think it's two frequent to be a coincidence that Marvel solos only can make a billion if they are heavily tied to and in close proximity to an Avenegrs flick. That makes me believe the residual effects of Avengers hype plays a big role.

[XPac]

Two things you have to consider about both of those films.

1. Black Panther was right before Infinity War and a big part of Infinity War was slated to take place in Wakanda so that became an important film. Captain Marvel was right before Endgame and it was billed as a film that led into Endgame and was neccessary to it.

2. They were the first films that were led by a minority and a female character and were heavily marketed off of being groundbreaking in the MCU for that.

Neither Ant Man film got close to 1 billion. Thor has never done it despite being a major Avenger. Neither Guardians did it.

The only solo's that did it were.

1. Iron Man 3. First film post Avengers and heavily marketed as being the fallout from that.

2. Captain America: Winter Soldier. This was basically an Avengers film imo so I don't know if you can really even count it.

3. Black Panther. The film right before Infinity Wars and was touted as having characters that played a massive role in that crossover.

4. Captain Marvel. The film right before Endgame and was touted as having characters that played a massive role in that crossover.

5. Spider-Man: Far From Home. The film immediately after Endgame and was billed as the fallout from it.

There's something in common with every single one of these. Each one was either directly before or after an Avengers film. Each one was heavily marketed as being relevant to the Avengers film it was close to (Captain Marvel and Black Panther being lead ins, Iron Man and Spider-Man being the fallout). The only exception to this is Civil War which had the entire Avengers cast fighting each other and was a psuedo Avengers film more than a solo Cap film.

The fact that the only solo films crossing a billion have that in common, makes me think it's two frequent to be a coincidence that Marvel solos only can make a billion if they are heavily tied to and in close proximity to an Avenegrs flick. That makes me believe the residual effects of Avengers hype plays a big role.

I think the fact that so many super hero movies are starting to cross the 1 billion mark is creating a sort of phenomenon where crossing that threshold is becoming a measurement of sucess. Which isn't entirely fair. Yeah, Thor and Guardians didn't earn a billion dollars, but they still earned well over 800 million dollars, which still sort of proves the point.

[A Small Talent For War]

I think the fact that so many super hero movies are starting to cross the 1 billion mark is creating a sort of phenomenon where crossing that threshold is becoming a measurement of sucess. Which isn't entirely fair. Yeah, Thor and Guardians didn't earn a billion dollars, but they still earned well over 800 million dollars, which still sort of proves the point.

That is a strong point. Venom "approached" a billion dollars but didn't cross it (I think), but the perception of its success is more because it was a surprise. Critics hated the movie and it seemed like fans were split (but more on the negative side of the split), but it still managed to make a hefty amount of money anyway.

I remember when Box Office started to become a big part of the press about movies back around TERMINATOR 2 in the early 90's. Blockbuster movies had been a big part of the movie news since Star Wars and probably throughout the history of popular motion pictures, but a big part of T2's story (and later TITANIC's) was how much it had cost. Normally, stories about movies costing so much were bad news - like HEAVEN'S GATE. So, if Terminator 2 didn't rake in several boatloads of cash, there was a good chance that we would not get more movies like it which was bad news for a young man like I was back then. Terminator was one of my favorite films in high school, and I was glad it was a hit. Before then, BLADE RUNNER had been one of my favorite movies, but it was a box office bomb, so cinema on the whole went a different direction.

Marvel movies, though, are a very different model than other superhero or action movies. I remember thinking of my experience after seeing the second X-Men movie, and it was that these movies felt less like films in that genre - less like The Matrix, for example - and more like movie adaptations of a television show that never existed. As if someone had made the Star Trek movies, but Star Trek the television show had never existed.

The Marvel movies have essentially perfected that "series" feeling for a cinematic form. So, they stand out from other superhero movies and even other connected superhero or action movie worlds like Star Wars or The Fast and the Furious.

[XPac]

That is a strong point. Venom "approached" a billion dollars but didn't cross it (I think), but the perception of its success is more because it was a surprise. Critics hated the movie and it seemed like fans were split (but more on the negative side of the split), but it still managed to make a hefty amount of money anyway.

I remember when Box Office started to become a big part of the press about movies back around TERMINATOR 2 in the early 90's. Blockbuster movies had been a big part of the movie news since Star Wars and probably throughout the history of popular motion pictures, but a big part of T2's story (and later TITANIC's) was how much it had cost. Normally, stories about movies costing so much were bad news - like HEAVEN'S GATE. So, if Terminator 2 didn't rake in several boatloads of cash, there was a good chance that we would not get more movies like it which was bad news for a young man like I was back then. Terminator was one of my favorite films in high school, and I was glad it was a hit. Before then, BLADE RUNNER had been one of my favorite movies, but it was a box office bomb, so cinema on the whole went a different direction.

Marvel movies, though, are a very different model than other superhero or action movies. I remember thinking of my experience after seeing the second X-Men movie, and it was that these movies felt less like films in that genre - less like The Matrix, for example - and more like movie adaptations of a television show that never existed. As if someone had made the Star Trek movies, but Star Trek the television show had never existed.

The Marvel movies have essentially perfected that "series" feeling for a cinematic form. So, they stand out from other superhero movies and even other connected superhero or action movie worlds like Star Wars or The Fast and the Furious.

Marvel clearly had a long term plan. From day one they were trying to build towards Avengers... and at the time at least that was somewhat of a gamble (see the DCEU). Obviously there was no gurantee they'd even get 2 movies, let alone at least 5. But they had a vision, had faith in their product, and it worked.

[A Small Talent For War]

Marvel clearly had a long term plan. From day one they were trying to build towards Avengers... and at the time at least that was somewhat of a gamble (see the DCEU). Obviously there was no gurantee they'd even get 2 movies, let alone at least 5. But they had a vision, had faith in their product, and it worked.

They also adapted. IRON MAN did not necessarily depend on bringing in the rest of the Marvel universe or spinning off into other movies. It could have continued to be a series of successful films like the Raimi Spider-Man movies if it had simply wanted to go that route. Even today, it stands out from the Marvel films after Disney acquired it. More adult, scabrous and anti-heroic.

The likelihood of success was and still is low when it comes to creating a film series expanding out from a single successful movie, and, honestly, THE INCREDIBLE HULK, THOR and CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE FIRST AVENGER were only moderately successful. None of them would have spawned a series on their own. Even the first AVENGERS was a big gamble.

After that film, it became the juggernaut. That cemented it, but it still takes the slightly dirtier movies like GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY or THOR: RAGNAROK to keep pumping fire into the furnace. The movies have to remain fun which is really the most important achievement Marvel's managed over the long run of films.

[XPac]

They also adapted. IRON MAN did not necessarily depend on bringing in the rest of the Marvel universe or spinning off into other movies. It could have continued to be a series of successful films like the Raimi Spider-Man movies if it had simply wanted to go that route. Even today, it stands out from the Marvel films after Disney acquired it. More adult, scabrous and anti-heroic.

The likelihood of success was and still is low when it comes to creating a film series expanding out from a single successful movie, and, honestly, THE INCREDIBLE HULK, THOR and CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE FIRST AVENGER were only moderately successful. None of them would have spawned a series on their own. Even the first AVENGERS was a big gamble.

After that film, it became the juggernaut. That cemented it, but it still takes the slightly dirtier movies like GUARDIANS OF THE GALAXY or THOR: RAGNAROK to keep pumping fire into the furnace. The movies have to remain fun which is really the most important achievement Marvel's managed over the long run of films.

WIthout Avenger movies (at least as far as we know) to sort of create book ends which the MCU can use as anchors they definately need a couple movies pumping fire into that furnace. If there was a time for marvel to lose momentum it potentially is now, given End Game is a POTENTIAL jumping off point for the audience. So far so good though as Spider-Man earned a million bucks post end game. Right now with the last 5 out of 6 movies earning over a billion dollars they have all the momentum in the world though... it'll be interesting to see if stuff like Shang Chi or Eternals or even a BlacK Widow movie can ride that momentum well enough into the next phase (where I think they're saving some of their bigger guns).

[Jokerz79]

You don't read the comics as you said. although I don't know how you misread me, I said it many times on another thread.



its still a rare feat for movies to be better than the books. 90% of the time, they are not.



Given that some of you did not know how famous rain drops were falling on my head was, I don't expect you to remember the opening theme of xmen that is basally a punching bag now.

This is one of the most famous comic scores. Perhaps the most famous of the 2000s.

If I went top 5 superhero theme the General Public knows I'd say

1: Is hands down William's Superman.
2: Now given it's global success Avengers.
3: Is a tie for the same character Elfman's Batman and Zimmer's Batman I think are both equally known.
4: Elfman's Spider-Man.
5: The movie X-Men theme but I think the X-Men TAS theme is even more widely recognizable.

[Beaddle]

So you agree that it’s recognizable to those that already cared about it? Your whataboutism doesn’t even attempt to refute my point, so I assume you’re quoting in agreement.

I didn’t say any MCU theme songs were outstanding (I kind of agree here on MCU film scores), so I don’t know why you went on a long-winded rant other than to say things you’ve already said. I didn’t even mention the MCU film scores at all in my post. Lol

it seem more than score, I just think its another attempt to pretend spiderman, xmen and blade movies never happened.

they can't remember the xmen theme

they cant remember rain drops are falling on my head

they cant remember blade was a black man.

I find it too much of a coincidence how some mcu fans know so little about marvel movies not in the mcu. there is this narrative out there to create the illusion that marvel only had movies from 2008.I do remember all the music in GOTG, I just think they were misplaced and not used well in the movie. music can get a little overdone like when Star lord starts to sing and break dance in front of Rohan. That scene is as memorable as rain drops from spiderman 2 but for the wrong reasons.

Speaking of music, what of time a bottle from DOFP? No mcu music scene got this much attention and I have personally come to hate this scene even now.


But this scene became a phenomenon. its was one of the most talked about film scene of 2014. it literally killed MCU own quicksilver or that was just disney been superficial and showing their lack of creativity. Killing their own quicksilver because disney thinks 2 characters can't exist in the same media at once. Sad because mcu quicksilver had a better origin story than DOFP quicksilver even with no Magneto in the mcu.

If Weblucker see this post, i will say it again. Ryan Coogler has nothing on Bryan Singer for now as a director. Give him 7 years or better, Let him make a comic movie not in the MCU. I want to his talents unleashed not held back by the disney formula of black panther.