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  1. #1
    Fantastic Member magha_regulus's Avatar
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    Default Kandorian genocide an early warning sign

    I've been reflecting on Bendis' run in light of the disappointment I'm feeling with his handling of the Legion. I don't think the way he killed off all of the Kandorians has been given the attention it deserves. This was a critical warning sign of what his run wad going to be like. He takes a classic element of the mythos and obliterates it's potentialand dishonors the actual origins of the concept to fit his take. There are for sure some great ideas in this run but he's really dropping feces all over classic elements of the mythos.

    I'm of conflicted feelings on his run (really everything since the New 52 ended).

  2. #2
    Fantastic Member magha_regulus's Avatar
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    In my opinion of you take something away you've got to replace it with something of equal or greater value.

  3. #3
    Spectacular Member Man_of_Tomorrow's Avatar
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    Superman as the leader of the UP, Jon with the Legion, and Zod as a supporting character is better than having the bottle city of kandor and not using it.

    The last story actively using Kandor was New Krypton. Over a decade ago. So we are missing something that was barely there. And it's so easy to bring kandor back that it's barely a loss.

  4. #4
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    With the scrutiny every decision Bendis has made on these books, starting from his announcement, I think the fact that no one really blinked an eye at Kandor being fridged for Zaar's badass cred says all that we really need to know about the value fans placed on Kandor. Kandor for the most part was literally a bottle sitting on a shelf. One of the few stories that they could do with it, the citizens being returned to normal size, has already been done. And did it even exist in the New 52? I want to say it didn't. I'm forgetting if it even existed for most of post-Crisis actually.

    I think using your calculus, from DC's POV taking the Legion "away" from Clark and giving it to Jon likely is adding something of value. They are relaunching the Legion with a fresh continuity, using the model that historically was the most successful (Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes) and building Jon's character out in the process. And like Kandor, what they have "taken" from Clark is something that only a dwindling number of fans even recall and hasn't been an active part of his backstory for over 30 years (with maybe three years after Secret Origin that it was back in). They are going to do the story of Superman founding the UP and being it's first leader. It was Jon's general idea, but Clark's implementing it completely. It really is not stripping all that much. The Legion is still directly inspired by the Superman family, and it actually builds off the legacy of Superman more. Now it really is an actual legacy creation. Something he and his son created.

    That is more of a legacy than he had before for most of the last few decades. And actively, storywise, we have two stories from that they can tell off this. The UP and LoSH. I guess I can understand it stinging a little, but at the same time it's almost a question of semantics. I'm really generally nonplussed by the whole thing. Plus, now Damian, Clark, Lois, etc. can visit Jon in the future! That'd be a fun story.

  5. #5
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    With the scrutiny every decision Bendis has made on these books, starting from his announcement, I think the fact that no one really blinked an eye at Kandor being fridged for Zaar's badass cred says all that we really need to know about the value fans placed on Kandor. Kandor for the most part was literally a bottle sitting on a shelf. One of the few stories that they could do with it, the citizens being returned to normal size, has already been done. And did it even exist in the New 52? I want to say it didn't. I'm forgetting if it even existed for most of post-Crisis actually.

    I think using your calculus, from DC's POV taking the Legion "away" from Clark and giving it to Jon likely is adding something of value. They are relaunching the Legion with a fresh continuity, using the model that historically was the most successful (Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes) and building Jon's character out in the process. And like Kandor, what they have "taken" from Clark is something that only a dwindling number of fans even recall and hasn't been an active part of his backstory for over 30 years (with maybe three years after Secret Origin that it was back in). They are going to do the story of Superman founding the UP and being it's first leader. It was Jon's general idea, but Clark's implementing it completely. It really is not stripping all that much. The Legion is still directly inspired by the Superman family, and it actually builds off the legacy of Superman more. Now it really is an actual legacy creation. Something he and his son created.

    That is more of a legacy than he had before for most of the last few decades. And actively, storywise, we have two stories from that they can tell off this. The UP and LoSH. I guess I can understand it stinging a little, but at the same time it's almost a question of semantics. I'm really generally nonplussed by the whole thing. Plus, now Damian, Clark, Lois, etc. can visit Jon in the future! That'd be a fun story.
    Kandor existed in the New 52, at least in Morrison's arc. He rescued it along with the other bottle cities from Brainiac.

    Kandor getting destroyed isn't as big of a deal in comparison because at least it's place in the lore would be intact before Zaar killed them off. They existed and Superman continuity is (more or less) untouched. But if we justify farming out Clark's milestones to other characters, he's not going to have anything left. He's not the first superhero in his continuity anymore, they are likely going to restore the JSA at some point. His status as the mightiest is constantly questioned. And now he has no prior connection to the Legion and isn't that important to their history, the general DCU heroes and his son are. it doesn't need to be a legacy creation along with a son that was only just recently awkwardly shoehorned into history, it should be Clark's the way it always was. Removing it from his backstory back during COIE didn't exactly do him or the Legion any favors, and while SO sucked, it deserves props for undoing that mistake. Clearly his milestones must be important if DC feels the need to take them and spread them out to other characters who don't even need them, with not much care for how it impacts him.

    Nobody has an issue with other supers joining the Legion (like Kara or Kon), but this is a bit much.

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Kandor unfortunately has spent more time in recent years dead or nonexistent, so I doubt most Superman fans really care. Post-Crisis Kandor wasn’t even Kryptonian until Johns reintroduced the Kryptonian Kandor into continuity. Then Kandor/New Krypton got destroyed in a totally uninspired way during War of the Supermen, and then wiped out by the reboot. Kandor was in the New 52 where outside of Supes saving it at the end of Morrison’s run, the only use the Kandorians got was as human bullets during a Batman/Superman arc.

    So really it’s hard to care too much that they’re gone for me. Rogal killing them shows what a monster he is, and they’ve spent more time dead than alive anyway.

  7. #7
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Kandor existed in the New 52, at least in Morrison's arc. He rescued it along with the other bottle cities from Brainiac.

    Kandor getting destroyed isn't as big of a deal in comparison because at least it's place in the lore would be intact before Zaar killed them off. They existed and Superman continuity is (more or less) untouched. But if we justify farming out Clark's milestones to other characters, he's not going to have anything left. He's not the first superhero in his continuity anymore, they are likely going to restore the JSA at some point. His status as the mightiest is constantly questioned. And now he has no prior connection to the Legion and isn't that important to their history, the general DCU heroes and his son are. it doesn't need to be a legacy creation along with a son that was only just recently awkwardly shoehorned into history, it should be Clark's the way it always was. Removing it from his backstory back during COIE didn't exactly do him or the Legion any favors, and while SO sucked, it deserves props for undoing that mistake. Clearly his milestones must be important if DC feels the need to take them and spread them out to other characters who don't even need them, with not much care for how it impacts him.

    Nobody has an issue with other supers joining the Legion (like Kara or Kon), but this is a bit much.
    I suspect the JSA is not going to return into Earth 0 or whatever the Rebirth Earth ends up being called at the end of Doomsday Clock. The JSA reappearing in Justice League is I think going to be from another Earth. If that's been announced and I'm wrong, correct me. But Doomsday Clock basically established he's the center of the metaverse to the point where all reality restructures around changes to his history. So I mean, conceptually, he's still the most important and practically, he'll still likely be the first public superhero on the Rebirth Earth.

    I guess the way I look at it is, they are never going to make Clark Superboy again. Those stories are not coming back in the way that they existed before. At most, we'd get like a Smallville type take. So shipping Jon, a legitimate clear Superboy, off to the Legion makes sense. Like you said, cutting the Legion off from Superman didn't work. They aren't doing that here, they are just fitting into a version of continuity that lets them have a Superboy. It's backstory, not story and doesn't add anything really to the equation other than what amounts to basically bragging rights. Storywise, it doesn't take all that much away. And unfortunately, broadening the Legion to take inspiration from all the heroes does in fact broaden not only the fanbase but the scope of stories they can tell. It makes sense to me.

    Jon's existence is explainable in one sentence - "He's Superman and Lois Lane's son." That is a marketing dream. No clones, etc. Him being shoehorned into the continuity is an issue for like 1% of the fans who need to know who changes the Batmobiles tires. No one else cares. It doesn't make or break stories at all. I just don't see it being that big of a deal. Having a Superboy in the Legion helps more than tweaking the Legion's origin hurts.

  8. #8
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I suspect the JSA is not going to return into Earth 0 or whatever the Rebirth Earth ends up being called at the end of Doomsday Clock. The JSA reappearing in Justice League is I think going to be from another Earth. If that's been announced and I'm wrong, correct me. But Doomsday Clock basically established he's the center of the metaverse to the point where all reality restructures around changes to his history. So I mean, conceptually, he's still the most important and practically, he'll still likely be the first public superhero on the Rebirth Earth.

    I guess the way I look at it is, they are never going to make Clark Superboy again. Those stories are not coming back in the way that they existed before. At most, we'd get like a Smallville type take. So shipping Jon, a legitimate clear Superboy, off to the Legion makes sense. Like you said, cutting the Legion off from Superman didn't work. They aren't doing that here, they are just fitting into a version of continuity that lets them have a Superboy. It's backstory, not story and doesn't add anything really to the equation other than what amounts to basically bragging rights. Storywise, it doesn't take all that much away. And unfortunately, broadening the Legion to take inspiration from all the heroes does in fact broaden not only the fanbase but the scope of stories they can tell. It makes sense to me.

    Jon's existence is explainable in one sentence - "He's Superman and Lois Lane's son." That is a marketing dream. No clones, etc. Him being shoehorned into the continuity is an issue for like 1% of the fans who need to know who changes the Batmobiles tires. No one else cares. It doesn't make or break stories at all. I just don't see it being that big of a deal. Having a Superboy in the Legion helps more than tweaking the Legion's origin hurts.
    I wouldn't say they will never make Clark having been Superboy again, since they've established it as being back in continuity at least twice (SO and the New 52) before taking it away again. It likely will be back at some point further down the road, history has shown that this new take may not last any longer than others. I really don't see what in this continuity prevents Clark from ever having been Superboy? Why set it up that way? The main problem it caused for the Legion was because Superboy was removed but their continuity was not re-started, and it caused a lot of problems since. Now this one is a reboot with a clean slate history, but it's not the first time we've gone through that either. Hasn't the Legion had at least three reboots already? DC fans aren't always receptive to reboots, and DC doesn't always stick with them.

    They are cutting them off from his origin still, which isn't accurate to how things were actually published, and it's really annoying how DC just cannot get as much of Superman's history back as possible even though it harms no one. His legend inspired them, but Superman became the hero he was in part due to his adventures with the Legion. They helped create him the way he helped create them. Now, they aren't directly inspired by him and never even met him before now, and the first Superboy to join the Legion is his son. His establishing the UP also seems in doubt from what I've gathered in the other discussion threads. it's all about Jon. I don't care about Jon or the legacy, I likely never will, but I would have been perfectly fine with Jon joining the Legion for their new book. I don't see why any of this requires Clark to not have met them before, it actually does seem to be about giving bragging rights to Jon (when even Jon fans, most of whom hate the age up, don't seem to want it) instead of anything of long term importance. As for the other properties...eh, I'm not so sure. All of them have gotten by just fine without any connection to them, or if they had problems a connection to the Legion isn't going to solve them. And I'm not sure the Batman or Wonder Woman fans are going to go read Legion in any large capacity if there are few Easter eggs dedicated to them within its pages.

  9. #9
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    I don't think they are trying to help other properties. I think they are trying to broaden the Legions fanbase as much as possible and tie it into the broader DCU.

    Again, I think it's a question of does it meaningfully detract from Superman? A little, yeah, but probably not in any meaningful way. Could it make the Legion work a little better than it has in the past, maybe make it a little more cohesive and broader in scope? Probably. Does it give Jon a meaningful place and let them use him regularly, but without tying Superman down? Yeah, definitely and the age up opens up all the stories they can tell that they cannot with a 10 year old. That right there is the real reason I suspect.

  10. #10
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I don't think they are trying to help other properties. I think they are trying to broaden the Legions fanbase as much as possible and tie it into the broader DCU.

    Again, I think it's a question of does it meaningfully detract from Superman? A little, yeah, but probably not in any meaningful way. Could it make the Legion work a little better than it has in the past, maybe make it a little more cohesive and broader in scope? Probably. Does it give Jon a meaningful place and let them use him regularly, but without tying Superman down? Yeah, definitely and the age up opens up all the stories they can tell that they cannot with a 10 year old. That right there is the real reason I suspect.
    The problem is, DC has justified changes as "not impacting Superman in any meaningful way" and implemented changes/deleted elements of his mythos...and he's never been as consistently popular as he was back when all of this stuff was in place, and his continuity has become quite a mess, second only to Wonder Woman as far as the major solo heroes for DC go. Like at one point Supergirl was not considered an important or meaningful connection, and she's been a mess in periods when they decided it was better to make her a shape shifting slime creature or a teenage angel.

    The Legion gave him similar peers he could hang out with as a child instead of just being the outcast in Smallville with a handful of friends. If we get rid of them, that's an important meeting in his childhood that he loses, and worse might lead to him having never feeling like an outsider and being the popular jock/nave farmboy that is so loathed by large parts of the fandom. It actually is pretty meaningful for his arc, IMO, and really I don't see how rebooting the Legion and their place in the Super mythos yet again is going to make things more cohesive. DC has shown that rebooting parts of things, but not others, does not lead to cohesion. Plus this appears to be at odds with whatever is going on in Doomsday Clock.

    There was nothing preventing them from using Jon regularly by just making him the new Superboy to join the Legion, but not the first.

  11. #11
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    So this is gonna sound meaner than I'm actually intending it to.

    Over the past couple of days hearing about some fans taking issue with Superman not being with the Legion first and now, apparently, Kandor getting broken, I can't help but make a comparison:

    Little Jimmy really likes the idea of his Legion toy and his the idea of his Kandor toy, but he's long since stopped playing with them or even mentioning them. They're just toys that he has so he can say he has them. And when you try and take them away or just move it right down the hall (still well within Jimmy's reach) Jimmy gets mad and all of a sudden they're the most important things to him. And Jimmy brings up rich little Bruce from down the street as a justification for keeping toys he doesn't think about even once.

    When was the actual last time you thought about Kandor before this run and concerned it a wellspring of stories. How often has there been an outcry for stories where Clark hangs out with his old Legion buds in the present as adults? How often have people even talked about him hanging out in the 31st century.

    Then the main argument I'm hearing now is more so devoted to the idea and only the idea of both "toys." There's nothing functional being asked for or lost.

    And all of this is coming from a person who has it well documented that they've wanted more done with Clark's link to both.

    But since they were not being used and I hardly ever saw fans here or otherwise dislodge themselves from the ideas of "modern day Golden age" or "more super family stuff" or some shipping war stuff to vent about how the Legion or Kandor is being underserved in relation to Clark, I just took it to mean both are nothing more than seldom remembered appendages that could be pointed to make some unrelated point in a debate. Feathers in Clark's cap.

    I just don't know, you guys. I'm struggling to look at it any other way. And again, I mean no disrespect. I never do. Threads like this just leave me scratching my head.

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  12. #12
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    I'm just not fond of shock value mass-murder. New Krypton getting blown up with a Gold Kryptonite bomb was another example. I was expecting it to get removed from the story somehow, but straight-forward mass-murder of the entire population? That sort of thing makes a character like Sam Lane go from tolerable but not likeable, to evil-d-bag who needs to meet the Punisher. When he confronted Car-Vex in person I was hoping Car-Vex would rip his heart out like she'd done to dozens of his soldiers. But no: he shoots her in the head. It gets worse when you realize he captured and imprisoned Nadira Va-Dim and Az-Rel so that he could experiment on them to figure out how to create a disease that could de-power Kryptonians. Which is why Car-Vex was powerless.

    There have been very few moments in the comics where I wanted to see a Kryptonian rip a Human's heart out THAT badly. It kinda plays into the trope of "man is the real monster". No matter what terrors and powers are in play, it is MAN who is the worst threat imaginable.

  13. #13
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    With Superman no longer connected directly to the Legion and Jon going into the future to be with them, I kind of wonder if they aren't trying to get him back to some kind of post-Crisis status. Reducing the number of Kryptonians on Earth would do that. Supergirl and Krypto are obviously going to stick around but any "non-essential" Kryptonians would be removed. And like others pointed out, when was the last time they even used Kandor? A decade ago? In a storyline everybody hated? It wouldn't surprise me if the Kents turned up alive fairly soon. His history is kind of a train wreck right now. The best thing they can do is move forward by trying to restore him to a status that people are at least comfortable with. By reducing the number of "hangers on", they can focus on the main characters. Jon can come back at any time if they feel like using him for something but for the most part, it's Lois, Clark, and the bare bones Planet staff.
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  14. #14
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    I've said for a long time Bendis' endgame was a kinda quasi early triangle era status quo. He used to talk really complimentary about Jurgens handling of the books.

  15. #15
    (formerly "Superman") JAK's Avatar
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    Here's a thought about Kandor, that actually has to do with the Leviathan story: we just saw Amanda Waller of all people have tech that can fool sensors and wasn't (somehow) noticed by Kryptonian eyes.

    What if a handful Kandorians did the same? And while they can't be enlarged again with it hurting them, they use stolen tech from Brainiac to reconstruct the bottle and start over.


    I'm just saying that, in comics, there are more ways than I can count to bring back Kandor in some way that doesn't involve a reboot.
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