DC’s middle generation problem.

[king81992]

They did and most of the New Age of Heroes or New 52 revival series like Green Team or The Movement flopped because readers are rightly more interested in characters they already know and still hasn't come back instead of new ones they don't know, or even old ones they never heard about.

Also, there's nothing wrong with designing a character just to be a sidekick or supporting cast, it's just that you can't really tell which characters become popular. I think both DC and the fans have to cool down the expectations ...or actually make a matching response.

There are fans who, when they latch on to a character and seeing that all the other sidekicks grow and become the main character of their own, want their faves to survive and rise higher than that, even though they're probably a loud minority.

Then there are DC writers who want their character to be popular, so they include them as much as possible, in many stories or events in the hope that people will like them, but then it turns out they don't and forcing them just make them annoyed.

Then, of course, there's the time where fans do respond enthusiastically, just not at the character DC want, so either they slowly fade them out or extremely change them so the reader will pay attention to other characters.

If the character is not well received, maybe it's better to fade them out
If the character is well received, maybe actually invest, hire a really good writer that can evolve them instead of forcing the other characters

Of course, since the only available sales number to judge is single issues for LCS, we can't really tell. All I can tell is "this character is or isn't bought by stores or people who go to LCS"

Because of that, I can't say if DC has put enough effort into this particular character that matches their audience or not. What I said above is based on readers and writers online response, but I don't know if they actually represent people who buy or drop the books and how many

DC also has issues where a character was well received in other media but they did nothing to add what made the character popular outside of the comics.

[Aahz]

Not true:
Nightwing for example is one of the top-sellers of DC even before Wonder Woman.
Superboy in the 90ies was also one of the Best-Sellers of DC.

Those were not new and unrelated.
Nightwing is obviously related to Batman, and he became Nightwing more then a decade before he got his solo.
And Superboy is obviously related to Superman.
And those book are from the 90s. In more recent years, almost every book staring a "new and unrelated" got cancelled in less then two years after release due to low sales.

In Pre-Flashpoint Conner,Tim,Cassie,Bart were introduced as young characters, but then became older, especially during Johns TT.

And stopped being the new guys in this process.

If you would take this system:

JL: Age 35-40 (Martian Manhunter etc. are older)
Titans: 28-30
Young Justice: 22-25
Teen Titans: 13-18

It would work perfectly.

I doubt that DC will let Dicks Generation age past their mid 20s, and since the Young Justice charters are about 8+ years younger they can never really age past their late teens. That leaves Room for one additional genration of Teen Titans but thats about it.

[comicstar100]

Funny enough something like the Young Justice animated series I think follows the legacy characters very well. We have a clear sense of time passing to allow for more and more of them to show up. Since the comics like to not really acknowledge years passing it can make the idea of so many of them being around harder to accept.

[Masterff]

Those were not new and unrelated.
Nightwing is obviously related to Batman, and he became Nightwing more then a decade before he got his solo.
And Superboy is obviously related to Superman.
And those book are from the 90s. In more recent years, almost every book staring a "new and unrelated" got cancelled in less then two years after release due to low sales.




And stopped being the new guys in this process.

I doubt that DC will let Dicks Generation age past their mid 20s, and since the Young Justice charters are about 8+ years younger they can never really age past their late teens. That leaves Room for one additional genration of Teen Titans but thats about it.

We have now a Naomi Series and the Naomi Series worked, even she is not related to any DC Character.

You can also only let ONE GENERATION become older and let the others at this age.

So leave the JL,Titans and Teen Titans at their age and only establish new ages for the YJ Generation.

At the end of Pre-Flashpoint it seemed that Tim and Dick are closer in age than before, not 8 years. but maybe 5 Years.
I speak about the End of Pre-Flashpoint with Red Robin Tim Drake...

If you do this:

-JL: Age 35-40
-Titans: Age 25-28
-Young Justice: 20-23
-Teen Titans: 13-16

you have a team for every generation and it will give the middle generation enough space.

Their time as teens should be over (we had YJ) and they should take the new step-you can write more mature stories etc. with Conner,Cassie,Tim,Bart...with over 20 years old.


THATS the PROBLEM!
The middle generation is stuck at this age and you have now characters like Wallace West/Bart Allen, Jonathan Kent/Conner Kent....who have now a similar position and are at the same age.

If DC would allow Conner,Tim,Bart,Cassie to become older and take a similar route like Nightwing did, they have a great chance to become great characters on their own.



Another problem is that Conner,Bart,Tim,Cassie.... are the generation who are made weaker than other generations.

Like:

Aquaman-Tempest-Lorena-Aqualad II
Superman-Supergirl-Conner-Jonathan
Batman-Nightwing-Tim-Damian
Wonder Woman-Donna-Cassie
Green Arrow-Red Arrow-Speedy/Arrowette-Speedy (Sister of Oliver)

here you see that the third one always seems to be weaker than the one of the other generation.
Only example is Flash where Bart might be the fastest and most powerful one.

Jonathan Kent is said that he could be more powerful than Clark, something what was never said about Conner.

Also Kenan Kong seems to be incredible powerful and maybe even more powerful than Conner.

[Lee]

The middle generation as a whole SHOULDN'T be a problem, but DC has to decide where it stands.
Do ALL characters remain like Bart Simpson (a perpetual 10 year old), meaning the four tier system will always work
Golden Age characters - JSA
Silver Age characters - JLA
Bronze Age characters - Titans
Current - Young Justice etc.

That four tier system already wouldn't work without excluding existing characters. Do you drop Bart Allen or Wallace West? Damian Wayne or Tim Drake?

It's a hard sell beyond three generations, honestly. The hero, the protege and the wise old master is a dynamic people instantly understand. Adding more and more to that becomes cumbersome, if you want to keep all characters active at all times.

If the desire is to keep all characters active at all times, then it's better to make them as distinct as possible. Like Young Justice season one did with Aqualad and Tempest - different names, different physical features (hairstyle etc), different costumes, different colour schemes, different powers/weapons, different personalities, different relationships with Aquaman and the surface world. They were presented as two completely different characters, who both happened to be Atlanteans.

Trying to explain the difference between Robin and Red Robin or Wally West and Wallace West becomes too inside baseball.

The issue I think is DC want their cake and eat it too. They make the same mistake with each reboot. They're too scared to overhaul everything, so they keep trying to do partial do overs that just screw things up more. They did it with Crisis on Infinite Earths, Zero Hour, Infinite Crisis and Rebirth.

Agreed. The half-measures compound the problems. In each instance, they should either have kept continuity intact, or wiped the slate clean entirely. If the reboot fails, then they can at least cleanly revert back to the previous version, which isn't so much an option when they keep Frankensteining their continuity together. They don't even need to have a big cosmic event crossover each time. Whenever Warner Bros releases a new Batman cartoon series, they don't spend 6 episodes explaining why it's different from the previous Batman cartoon. For New 52, they could have just said "We're moving onto a new era of DC Comics, with stories set in Multiverse-B".

This would be less of a problem if those characters weren't designed to just be either sidekicks or trinity-themed heroes. Characters like Batwoman, Sonar, Batwing, Gotham Girl, Spoiler, etc. are just redundant. If DC would just design brand-new heroes and vigilantes that are completely unrelated to any existing characters, we wouldn't have these directionless ones we have now.

DC created new unrelated character quite often, problem is that their books don't sell.

Not true:
Nightwing for example is one of the top-sellers of DC even before Wonder Woman.
Superboy in the 90ies was also one of the Best-Sellers of DC.

Nightwing and Superboy weren't brand new heroes completely unrelated to existing characters. They're related to Batman and Superman.

[Aahz]

We have now a Naomi Series and the Naomi Series worked, even she is not related to any DC Character.

This series is just running for roughly half a year at this pointz that seems a little early to me to judge hiw successful it is on the long run. But even if this character succeeds, it would be the first one in the last at least 10 (probably more like 15 or 20) years to do so, out of I don't know how many attempts.
That's in comparison to legacy characters not a good rate.

[DrNewGod]

It's really sad to me that newer readers see Tim Drake this way.

He was an interesting, independent character when he was first introduced, and through most of the 90s. He had three miniseries, followed by his own solo series as Robin, and 90% of the time, Batman wasn't in it. At the same time, Tim wasn't in 90% of Batman, Detective, or Shadow of the Bat issues. It was only the big Bat-family crossovers that ever brought them together, despite working out of the same Bat-cave. Alfred appeared with both of them more often than they appeared with each other. Ironically, one of my few complaints about the Bat-family at the time was that the traditional Batman and Robin team didn't seem to actually exist any more, despite both characters still being there. You almost never saw them working together.

This is DC's real Generations problem (note: I use Fromper's quote merely as an example, not to criticize or dispute Fromper's opinion). Because DC wants to give us the illusion of progression whilst clinging fast the IP value of their extant characters, they create characters that are almost guaranteed to windup sidelined or abandoned. However, those characters, particularly if they are done well, develop devoted fans. Thus, DC is setting up the Batgirls, Robins, and Flashes of the world to suffer an eternally splintered fanbase.

Not. Bright.

[skyvolt2000]

DC also has issues where a character was well received in other media but they did nothing to add what made the character popular outside of the comics.

BINGO- if the general public likes these guys-why is it an issue in the "comic book store" market?
Oh yeah an entitlement audience is the issue.

Folks who will push back because those guys who get popular outside of comics are now THREATS to what they like.

So you end up seeing ALL the kids from Young Justice be MIA in comics for a time.
Vixen goes to waste while we get a black Black Carney in Birds of Prey.

We have now a Naomi Series and the Naomi Series worked, even she is not related to any DC Character.

WHO is her co-writer and creator???? You know the guy who took a image of Donald Glover in a Spider-Man t-shirt on Season 2 of Community and made it into an Oscar winner. Who has done more than every single black character at DC. Who will have 100 solo issues by 2021 joining Black Panther, Luke Cage & Spawn in that honor.

Yeah jumping on that book would be a smart thing to do with BENDIS on it.

Lets not forget Firestorm, Question and so many others had successful books. For DC to do the following-

NEVER give them another solo shot-Steel
ERASE them from history for being pitch toxic-Cassandra Cain
Emasculated them and gave their traits to others-Jason Rusch & Wally West
Replaced them with racist stereotypes-Wally West
RARELY used them unless it was for death fodder-Hotspot
Rarely used them PERIOD-Vixen
Can't find a writer willing to write them-John Stewart
Buried them in favor of PETS-see Green Lantern
Assigned the WORST talent to them in other books-New 52 Static, Firestorm, Blue Beetle
Ruined in other books by editors-Static, Cyborg, Wally West, Jaime Reyes, Kyle, John Stewart, Guy, Batgirl, Duke Thomas, Katanna,

[Masterff]

That four tier system already wouldn't work without excluding existing characters. Do you drop Bart Allen or Wallace West? Damian Wayne or Tim Drake?

It's a hard sell beyond three generations, honestly. The hero, the protege and the wise old master is a dynamic people instantly understand. Adding more and more to that becomes cumbersome, if you want to keep all characters active at all times.

Its not hard:

Just split it in 5 teams:

-JSA (maybe not as regular book, but as kind of special series)
-JL: Age 30-40
-Titans: 25-28: Wally,Nightwing,Tempest,Donna,Lilith,Roy,....
-Young Justice: 20-23: Bart,Conner,Cassie,Tim,Raven...
-Teen Titans: 13-18: Wallace,Damian,Djinn,Speedy,Jonathan Samuel Kent...

So you dont have to drop anyone...

The Problem is more that the YJ got stripped of their legacy at the moment and are to close (in age) to the TT.

[Jackalope89]

Its not hard:

Just split it in 5 teams:

-JSA (maybe not as regular book, but as kind of special series)
-JL: Age 30-40
-Titans: 25-28: Wally,Nightwing,Tempest,Donna,Lilith,Roy,....
-Young Justice: 20-23: Bart,Conner,Cassie,Tim,Raven...
-Teen Titans: 13-18: Wallace,Damian,Djinn,Speedy,Jonathan Samuel Kent...

So you dont have to drop anyone...

The Problem is more that the YJ got stripped of their legacy at the moment and are to close (in age) to the TT.

Raven, Beast Boy, and the other NTT really should be part of the Titans group, by all rights.

But a slight issue with your list; what about characters like Jason Todd, Supergirl, and other similarly "in between" characters?

[Masterff]

Raven, Beast Boy, and the other NTT really should be part of the Titans group, by all rights.

But a slight issue with your list; what about characters like Jason Todd, Supergirl, and other similarly "in between" characters?

Jason Todd is already in a team with Artemis and Bizarro...Red Hood and the Outlaws..They have a series on their own.
Supergirl was part of the Teen Titans with Cassie,Tim,Miss Martian...BUT she doesnt need to be in a team..she has her OWN Series..

Raven,Beast Boy and Starfire could be part of any Team since they were in a team with Nightwing,Tim and Damian.
BUT! in Pre-Flashpoint and NEW52 Raven was part of the Team with Cassie,Tim and one Version of Bart and Kon El.
AND! Nightwings and Damians Teams are already full, so she would better fit in the YJ Team with her former Team-Mates.

[Masterff]

Big Problems which the YJ Generation has:

1. Their history is unclear (huge problem, because Conner for example had his own statue and there was his cult etc.).
So he was quite famous

2. They are young again and DC will probably never let them become older, which would help them to take the Nightwing Way and let Conner for example grow out of the SuperBOY identity

3. Their comeback feels impactless.
NEVER understood why they didnt bring them back in a more spectacular fashion.

I mean look at this here:
https://www.dccomics.com/blog/2017/0...x-enemiesblind

This would have been a GREAT MOMENT to bring Conner back in a spectacular fashion

[Lee]

-JSA (maybe not as regular book, but as kind of special series)
-JL: Age 30-40
-Titans: 25-28: Wally,Nightwing,Tempest,Donna,Lilith,Roy,....
-Young Justice: 20-23: Bart,Conner,Cassie,Tim,Raven...
-Teen Titans: 13-18: Wallace,Damian,Djinn,Speedy,Jonathan Samuel Kent...

Making Bart Allen an adult breaks the character, as we've seen before. Him being a teenager is absolutely integral to everything the character represents. And what would even be done with an adult Cassie Sandsmark? She'd be too old to be Wonder Girl, and DC would inevitably introduce a new, teenage Wonder Girl, compounding the problem of having too many duplicate characters.

Is it really a good idea to explicitly exclude anyone under the age of 30 from the Justice League? Are "a team of heroes in their early 20s" and a "a team of heroes in their mid-late 20s" distinct enough selling points? What would the difference be? What would these books be about?

[king81992]

Making Bart Allen an adult breaks the character, as we've seen before. Him being a teenager is absolutely integral to everything the character represents. And what would even be done with an adult Cassie Sandsmark? She'd be too old to be Wonder Girl, and DC would inevitably introduce a new, teenage Wonder Girl, compounding the problem of having too many duplicate characters.

Is it really a good idea to explicitly exclude anyone under the age of 30 from the Justice League? Are "a team of heroes in their early 20s" and a "a team of heroes in their mid-late 20s" distinct enough selling points? What would the difference be? What would these books be about?

I partly agree, 'team of heroes in their early 20s or mid to late twenties' isn't a compelling selling point.The selling point of the book would be based on whatever characters the writer chooses to use, the writer's willingness to NOT retread old storylines or engage in character derailment and the writer's willingness to overhaul the characters that need to be retooled.

[Masterff]

Making Bart Allen an adult breaks the character, as we've seen before. Him being a teenager is absolutely integral to everything the character represents. And what would even be done with an adult Cassie Sandsmark? She'd be too old to be Wonder Girl, and DC would inevitably introduce a new, teenage Wonder Girl, compounding the problem of having too many duplicate characters.

Is it really a good idea to explicitly exclude anyone under the age of 30 from the Justice League? Are "a team of heroes in their early 20s" and a "a team of heroes in their mid-late 20s" distinct enough selling points? What would the difference be? What would these books be about?

Difficult:

For Bart I have to say that I REALLY enjoyed the KID FLASH Personality and the Flash Run was strange, BUT this was because he lost Max Mercury,Conner etc. and he left the Teen Titans and he was pushed at this age, NOT became older naturally.
This Time when he was Flash was a strange time for the whole DC Universe, because it was after IC with so many deaths.

I dont have problems with Cassie being an adult. I LOVED the Wonder Woman of Titans of Tomorrow in Pre-Flashpoint and Rebirth. The Code-Name Wonder Lady is free, so I can see Cassie growing into Wonder Lady. I dont think that there is a need for a new Wonder Girl as this rule ISNT crucial.

I DONT exclude anyone!!

Its just an example how I imagine the age-span of every Team.

The JSA are the oldest ones (BUT with Star Girl, Power Girl etc. they also have young heroes)
The JL is logically than at the 2nd place
Then the YJ
etc.

The point of having a team in early 20 and a team of heroes in mid-late 20s is:
a) The Teams have different members, for example the Titans dont have a Super-Character
b) For the YJ Generation is simply time to move on, we already had them in YJ and TT and in IC Conner,Cassie,Bart etc. showed that they can also deal with the big guys and are now closer to the JL/Titans than to TT.


For YJ its very easy: Conner,Cassie and Bart leaving their home-towns to go to another town to go to the University there and live there.
I would love to see them for example in Hawaii (since Kon has a strong Connection to Hawaii).

Conner and Cassie being a couple again and living in one appartment. Bart living in the same house in another appartment
So Conner can became a NIGHTWING type character, leaving the Code-Name SuperBOY for Jonathan, taking a new Code-Name and becoming the Hero of Hawaii.


Being 20-23 will give YJ and the writers more options:
1. Let them also fight against big villains like Mongul
2. If you are 20-23 you can live alone wherever you want
3. They can grow out of being side-kick or protegee

For Conner for example it would be a big step:
He can now leave Smallville and go to a complete other place where Superman ISNT so near to him.


So on Hawaii (now he is more powerful than in the 90ies) he can become a Superman on his own, doing the same things which Clark does in Metropolis: saving people, catching airplanes etc. etc.)

Like Nightwing in Blüdhaven, but on a whole other level.

We already had them in YJ and TT, so it would be just naturally if they are now over 20 and we have the TT with Wallace,Jonathan,Damian....so its their time to be teenagers.