DC’s middle generation problem.

[mathew101281]

Characters like Tim Drake and (superboy) Conner have a problem because their whole identity was built around being the “new kid”. So when a new generation comes around they are left with very little direction and purpose. Batman and Superman and other adult superheroes are to popular ( and lucrative) to ever fully leave the stage permanently. And every new generation of writer wants to leave their mark by adding new characters to the mythos. Thus you wind up with a crush in the middle. A bunch of characters that aren’t the new kids anymore but will never be the head liners. It’s the major flaw in DC’s legacy idea.

[Citizen Kane]

This would be less of a problem if those characters weren't designed to just be either sidekicks or trinity-themed heroes. Characters like Batwoman, Sonar, Batwing, Gotham Girl, Spoiler, etc. are just redundant. If DC would just design brand-new heroes and vigilantes that are completely unrelated to any existing characters, we wouldn't have these directionless ones we have now.

[lemonpeace]

This would be less of a problem if those characters weren't designed to just be either sidekicks or trinity-themed heroes. Characters like Batwoman, Sonar, Batwing, Gotham Girl, Spoiler, etc. are just redundant. If DC would just design brand-new heroes and vigilantes with no ties to any other character, we wouldn't have these directionless ones we have now.

I wouldn't even say that's the issue because these character have unique properties and can be redesigned or progressed away from the sidekick role (Red Hood, Wally West) or away the theming of the Trinity (Spoiler*, Nightwing) at anytime. The problem is, which is emblematic of DC's issue, the lack of meaningful story/character progression. Damian Wayne deposed Tim Drake as Robin over a decade ago, why is he only just now leaving the Robin title behind!? DC would be better off with these character (and all the new characters that are introduced only to get neglected) if they allowed things to change and progress organically and properly utilize their large roster of unique characters. we don't need the same 4 or 5 characters taking up the lion share of page real estate in almost every book; the brand is secure DC, you don't need to constantly reaffirm the status of the same characters repeatedly.

* design-wise at least, I don't read much Spoiler to know how her stories and niche work

[Citizen Kane]

I wouldn't even say that's the issue because these character have unique properties and can be redesigned or progressed away from the sidekick role (Red Hood, Wally West) or away the theming of the Trinity (Spoiler*, Nightwing) at anytime. The problem is, which is emblematic of DC's issue, the lack of meaningful story/character progression. Damian Wayne deposed Tim Drake as Robin over a decade ago, why is he only just now leaving the Robin title behind!? DC would be better off with these character (and all the new characters that are introduced only to get neglected) if they allowed things to change and progress organically and properly utilize their large roster of unique characters. we don't need the same 4 or 5 characters taking up the lion share of page real estate in almost every book; the brand is secure DC, you don't need to constantly reaffirm the status of the same characters repeatedly.

* design-wise at least, I don't read much Spoiler to know how her stories and niche work

While plenty of characters are eligible for the Nightwing treatment, a majority of them seem to suffer from being completely generic personalities. Unfortunately, it seems that DC lacks the talent and motivation to evolve characters like Tim Drake into an interesting, independent character. DC only adds to the problem when they think it's a good idea to have 10+ heroes operating in Gotham City; all of which have little personality beyond being tied to Batman in either theme or involvement.

[Fromper]

While plenty of characters are eligible for the Nightwing treatment, a majority of them seem to suffer from being completely generic personalities. Unfortunately, it seems that DC lacks the talent and motivation to evolve characters like Tim Drake into an interesting, independent character. DC only adds to the problem when they think it's a good idea to have 10+ heroes operating in Gotham City; all of which have little personality beyond being tied to Batman in either theme or involvement.

It's really sad to me that newer readers see Tim Drake this way.

He was an interesting, independent character when he was first introduced, and through most of the 90s. He had three miniseries, followed by his own solo series as Robin, and 90% of the time, Batman wasn't in it. At the same time, Tim wasn't in 90% of Batman, Detective, or Shadow of the Bat issues. It was only the big Bat-family crossovers that ever brought them together, despite working out of the same Bat-cave. Alfred appeared with both of them more often than they appeared with each other. Ironically, one of my few complaints about the Bat-family at the time was that the traditional Batman and Robin team didn't seem to actually exist any more, despite both characters still being there. You almost never saw them working together.

[Citizen Kane]

It's really sad to me that newer readers see Tim Drake this way.

He was an interesting, independent character when he was first introduced, and through most of the 90s. He had three miniseries, followed by his own solo series as Robin, and 90% of the time, Batman wasn't in it. At the same time, Tim wasn't in 90% of Batman, Detective, or Shadow of the Bat issues. It was only the big Bat-family crossovers that ever brought them together, despite working out of the same Bat-cave. Alfred appeared with both of them more often than they appeared with each other. Ironically, one of my few complaints about the Bat-family at the time was that the traditional Batman and Robin team didn't seem to actually exist any more, despite both characters still being there. You almost never saw them working together.

I find it unfortunate that I have trouble seeing Tim Drake beyond a Dick Grayson clone. I suppose that's a detriment of being someone who was initially exposed to comics from the mid 00's, but writing quality from DC is also largely to blame. However, I've found myself collecting collected editions for the 90's and earlier. Currently, I'm waiting to snag the Absolute Edition for Alan Moore's run on Swamp Thing.

[protege]

It's really sad to me that newer readers see Tim Drake this way.

He was an interesting, independent character when he was first introduced, and through most of the 90s. He had three miniseries, followed by his own solo series as Robin, and 90% of the time, Batman wasn't in it. At the same time, Tim wasn't in 90% of Batman, Detective, or Shadow of the Bat issues. It was only the big Bat-family crossovers that ever brought them together, despite working out of the same Bat-cave. Alfred appeared with both of them more often than they appeared with each other. Ironically, one of my few complaints about the Bat-family at the time was that the traditional Batman and Robin team didn't seem to actually exist any more, despite both characters still being there. You almost never saw them working together.

For me, i’m More interested in him as how he relates to Batman. Kind of the same problem I have with duke Thomas. And this just brings up the argument, do we even need a robin anymore? We have nightwing, i don’t Really care about Tim or Jason, and i’d Like to have seen duke and Bruce work together, but most people prefer to see Batman work alone. Don’t get me started on batgirl/ batwoman.

[Lee Stone]

It's really sad to me that newer readers see Tim Drake this way.

He was an interesting, independent character when he was first introduced, and through most of the 90s. He had three miniseries, followed by his own solo series as Robin, and 90% of the time, Batman wasn't in it. At the same time, Tim wasn't in 90% of Batman, Detective, or Shadow of the Bat issues. It was only the big Bat-family crossovers that ever brought them together, despite working out of the same Bat-cave. Alfred appeared with both of them more often than they appeared with each other. Ironically, one of my few complaints about the Bat-family at the time was that the traditional Batman and Robin team didn't seem to actually exist any more, despite both characters still being there. You almost never saw them working together.

I remember the big reveal of Tim Drake's Robin costume. It was an epic moment and the costume was an incredible update that not only modernized it but also said 'No, I'm not Grayson or Todd.'

I also remember Drake being the first Robin to have his own series. Even Grayson hadn't had one as Robin, and he was still a couple years away from getting his first solo book as Nightwing.

And I remember Chuck Dixon being the definitive writer for Drake, especially during the King Snake story that helped flesh out his own niche of the Bat-verse.

[Digifiend]

This would be less of a problem if those characters weren't designed to just be either sidekicks or trinity-themed heroes. Characters like Batwoman, Sonar, Batwing, Gotham Girl, Spoiler, etc. are just redundant. If DC would just design brand-new heroes and vigilantes that are completely unrelated to any existing characters, we wouldn't have these directionless ones we have now.

I don't think Gotham Girl will still be around after King's Batman run ends.

[protege]

This would be less of a problem if those characters weren't designed to just be either sidekicks or trinity-themed heroes. Characters like Batwoman, Sonar, Batwing, Gotham Girl, Spoiler, etc. are just redundant. If DC would just design brand-new heroes and vigilantes that are completely unrelated to any existing characters, we wouldn't have these directionless ones we have now.

Flip side of that arguement is that newer characters really don’t catch on with readers the way they used to.

[9th.]

Flip side of that arguement is that newer characters really don’t catch on with readers the way they used to.

That's the issue, they don't sell. Spoiler and Batwing can't be original properties if they don't have anywhere else to go. If people love the Batverse and keep buying his books then thats where they're gonna go.

[Vampire Savior]

If you ask me, Dick Grayson should have never left the Robin identity, and should be the only Robin. My understanding is that only happened because Doug Moench wanted to use "Robin" but Marv Wolfman was using Robin in Teen Titans at the time, which was super popular. I think Moench came up with the idea of Dick dropping the identity so that the classic dynamic duo would still be intact. If that's true, and I believe it is as I heard if from Moench himself, and I think I'm remembering things correctly, I find that reasoning all kinds of faulty. What I definitely do remember is whatever the reason for Dick no longer being Robin was dumb.

However, this doesn't mean that Dick always has to be Batman's sidekick. Let some new sidekicks take other names. 2394783947347 Robins is incredibly stupid, IMO.

[witchboy]

I think Nightwing has been very successful as a new identity for Dick. Jason wasn't embraced as Robin but he did well as Red Hood. Fans loved Tim as Robin but then Damian took that slot. Tim does suffer from being one too many Robins. By the time you add in Batwoman, Batgirl and all the other supporting characters it's a crowded stage for everyone in Gotham.

[Frontier]

If you ask me, Dick Grayson should have never left the Robin identity, and should be the only Robin. My understanding is that only happened because Doug Moench wanted to use "Robin" but Marv Wolfman was using Robin in Teen Titans at the time, which was super popular. I think Moench came up with the idea of Dick dropping the identity so that the classic dynamic duo would still be intact. If that's true, and I believe it is as I heard if from Moench himself, and I think I'm remembering things correctly, I find that reasoning all kinds of faulty. What I definitely do remember is whatever the reason for Dick no longer being Robin was dumb.

However, this doesn't mean that Dick always has to be Batman's sidekick. Let some new sidekicks take other names. 2394783947347 Robins is incredibly stupid, IMO.

I think the progression ended up helping the characters and brand a great deal more then it would have if Dick had stuck on as Robin indefinitely.

[Fromper]

If you ask me, Dick Grayson should have never left the Robin identity, and should be the only Robin.

Well, that one belongs in the controversial opinions thread. Not that there's anything wrong with you having an opinion. I just think most people are happy with Dick "growing up" and becoming his own man, with the new Nightwing identity that's not directly tied to Batman.

And there was nothing wrong with having a successor as Robin. The problem is that the first successor, Jason, was handled poorly and unpopular. After he died, the second successor, Tim, showed how it could be done right. And then the next problem was that they kept going and adding more after that.