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  1. #1
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    Default Examples of Pre-Flashpoint Canon Reasserting Itself in the DC Universe 2019

    So, it was pointed out to me that the previous thread might be too long now and that long threads can cause issues with the forum. Thanks for letting me know, Bored. So, I've decided to reboot the thread...ironically enough. Below is the link to the original thread if anyone wants to check it out.

    https://community.cbr.com/showthread...he-DC-Universe

    Getting back to business, the Heroes in Crisis #5 preview just confirmed that a bunch of stuff is back: Justice League of America 260; Justice League America 38; Justice League of America vol. 2, 39-40; and Justice League of America vol. 2, 51. So, with that, its possible that the JL Detroit era, the Giffen/DeMatteis era, the Legends crossover, the details of Blackest Night, and the immediately pre-Flashpoint Justice League (where Donna and Dick were members) is now back in canon.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 01-29-2019 at 10:05 PM.

  2. #2
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    All this stuff coming back pisses me off. It's a reminder of all the money I wasted on the reboot and everything that came after.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

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    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    All this stuff coming back pisses me off. It's a reminder of all the money I wasted on the reboot and everything that came after.
    How is it a waste? It's just been re-contextualized as part of the larger DCU continuity of regularly occurring time shenanigans. Everything that worked about the New 52 reboot has remained like restoring Steve Trevor as Wonder Woman's love interest, and resurrecting Ted Kord and many, many others from being dead.

    The same thing happened after Infinite Crisis reconciled the Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis continuities into something new. It didn't make any of those great Post-Crisis tales a waste, even if many of them didn't quite fit anymore. It just changed them into something new, but the best part of that past generally remains.

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    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    How is it a waste? It's just been re-contextualized as part of the larger DCU continuity of regularly occurring time shenanigans. Everything that worked about the New 52 reboot has remained like restoring Steve Trevor as Wonder Woman's love interest, and resurrecting Ted Kord and many, many others from being dead.

    The same thing happened after Infinite Crisis reconciled the Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis continuities into something new. It didn't make any of those great Post-Crisis tales a waste, even if many of them didn't quite fit anymore. It just changed them into something new, but the best part of that past generally remains.
    All those people could've ben brought back with Brightest Day. Ignoring that simply saying things are re-contextualized but not saying how is part of the problem. I've been up for a long time so I don't feel like rambling on about this again with even worse writing skills than usual.

    Just watch this if you care to hear most of my opinions about this. Starts at 1:40.

    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  5. #5
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    All those people could've ben brought back with Brightest Day. Ignoring that simply saying things are re-contextualized but not saying how is part of the problem. I've been up for a long time so I don't feel like rambling on about this again with even worse writing skills than usual.

    Just watch this if you care to hear most of my opinions about this. Starts at 1:40.

    Sorry, no offence, but I'm not too keen on spending 15 minutes watching someone complain on YouTube. I prefer reading fanboy rants because I'm pretty damn good speed reader

  6. #6
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    Ignoring that simply saying things are re-contextualized but not saying how is part of the problem.
    I bailed on this thread last time and will again as I feel like people are using the same words to talk about completely different things, but as someone with little to no reading of DC prior to Flashpoint (aside from Death of Superman) none of this stuff needs context to me. These are just references to some event that happened to whatever character for the purpose of this story. If it happens to connect to some story that occurred pre-FP that means nothing to me. If none of the other details of that story are mentioned in this story, they mean nothing to me. Writers using pre-FP stories to form the backstory of the new continuity is either a nice nod or laziness, but that is all it is and trying to take it as more than that will only lead to frustration from what I can see of those who fixate on bringing back the pre-FP stuff.

  7. #7
    Astonishing Member Clark_Kent's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I bailed on this thread last time and will again as I feel like people are using the same words to talk about completely different things, but as someone with little to no reading of DC prior to Flashpoint (aside from Death of Superman) none of this stuff needs context to me. These are just references to some event that happened to whatever character for the purpose of this story. If it happens to connect to some story that occurred pre-FP that means nothing to me. If none of the other details of that story are mentioned in this story, they mean nothing to me. Writers using pre-FP stories to form the backstory of the new continuity is either a nice nod or laziness, but that is all it is and trying to take it as more than that will only lead to frustration from what I can see of those who fixate on bringing back the pre-FP stuff.
    I don't want to clutter the thread, but I see little value in hand-wringing on either side of the fence. But I'm also weird and I take an "everything has happened" approach...for example:

    Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age, these things all happened. But along the way you discover that some happened on Earth 2, some on Earth 1, etc. Then, there was a Crisis that reset time and now there was only one Earth, but nobody really remembered there was a Crisis at all. Everything from 1938 - COIE happened, but nobody remembers it! The stories from COIE onward all happened, and along the way Superman turned left in the timestream instead of right and now his personal history was changed. His adventures still happened, but many of the events he went through after COIE were now remembered differently or even forgotten. But they still happened.

    The old timeline pre-Flashpoint happened, but then Flashpoint & Manhattan happened and the timeline changed once again. And now again with Rebirth. Everything you've read and loved still technically occured exactly as you, the reader, remember it...but the characters have forgotten many of those events completely, and some of the events are remembered differently. Every now and then someone will remember something that happened, and they'll reference it, making it a remembered event in the timeline. Sometimes they remember it exactly as it occured, sometimes they remember it differently. But the notion that "____ was a waste because it's not in continuity anymore!" is lost on me. If you enjoyed the story, it's still there to be read. And it did technically happen, even if right now the characters don't remember it. The good news is, eventually they will.

    Anyways, carry on. I just wanted to share how I approach it.
    "Darkseid...always hated music..."

    Every post I make, it should be assumed by the reader that the following statement is attached: "It's all subjective. What works for me doesn't necessarily work for you, and vice versa, and that's ok. You may have a different opinion on it, but this is mine. That's the wonderful thing about being a comics fan, it's all subjective."

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    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clark_Kent View Post
    I don't want to clutter the thread, but I see little value in hand-wringing on either side of the fence. But I'm also weird and I take an "everything has happened" approach...for example:

    Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age, these things all happened. But along the way you discover that some happened on Earth 2, some on Earth 1, etc. Then, there was a Crisis that reset time and now there was only one Earth, but nobody really remembered there was a Crisis at all. Everything from 1938 - COIE happened, but nobody remembers it! The stories from COIE onward all happened, and along the way Superman turned left in the timestream instead of right and now his personal history was changed. His adventures still happened, but many of the events he went through after COIE were now remembered differently or even forgotten. But they still happened.

    The old timeline pre-Flashpoint happened, but then Flashpoint & Manhattan happened and the timeline changed once again. And now again with Rebirth. Everything you've read and loved still technically occured exactly as you, the reader, remember it...but the characters have forgotten many of those events completely, and some of the events are remembered differently. Every now and then someone will remember something that happened, and they'll reference it, making it a remembered event in the timeline. Sometimes they remember it exactly as it occured, sometimes they remember it differently. But the notion that "____ was a waste because it's not in continuity anymore!" is lost on me. If you enjoyed the story, it's still there to be read. And it did technically happen, even if right now the characters don't remember it. The good news is, eventually they will.

    Anyways, carry on. I just wanted to share how I approach it.
    Someone remembered...


  9. #9
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Sorry, no offence, but I'm not too keen on spending 15 minutes watching someone complain on YouTube. I prefer reading fanboy rants because I'm pretty damn good speed reader
    You do you. I'm tired of ranting.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Someone remembered...

    Psycho Pirate is the only one that knows all about DC.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I bailed on this thread last time and will again as I feel like people are using the same words to talk about completely different things, but as someone with little to no reading of DC prior to Flashpoint (aside from Death of Superman) none of this stuff needs context to me. These are just references to some event that happened to whatever character for the purpose of this story. If it happens to connect to some story that occurred pre-FP that means nothing to me. If none of the other details of that story are mentioned in this story, they mean nothing to me. Writers using pre-FP stories to form the backstory of the new continuity is either a nice nod or laziness, but that is all it is and trying to take it as more than that will only lead to frustration from what I can see of those who fixate on bringing back the pre-FP stuff.
    See, this is a position I just don't get. How is building off of something laziness? How is using the works of the plethora of other writers that have worked on these characters to inform how you write this character anywhere in the realm of laziness? Simple answer: Its not. Its the opposite of laziness. It means that a writer has actually, you know, researched the character they're working on. When I see a story or an arc that actually uses elements of past continuity or past characterization and blends them into the story in a way that makes sense, that signals to me that the writer has risen to the challenge of writing these characters. They've done the characters justice because they've actually cared enough to understand them.

    The superhero genre is not like other genres. It thrives on the fact that these characters are nostalgic, that they have fanbases built up over decades. So, again, that's not laziness. That's doing the job.
    Last edited by Zeeguy91; 01-31-2019 at 03:00 PM.

  12. #12
    Astonishing Member cranger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeeguy91 View Post
    See, this is a position I just don't get. How is building off of something laziness? How is using the works of the plethora of other writers that have worked on these characters to inform how you write this character anywhere in the realm of laziness? Simple answer: Its not. Its the opposite of laziness. It means that a writer has actually, you know, researched the character they're working on. When I see a story or an arc that actually uses elements of past continuity or past characterization and blends them into the story in a way that makes sense, that signals to me that the writer has risen to the challenge of writing these characters. They've done the characters justice because they've actually cared enough to understand them.

    So, again, that's not laziness. That's doing the job.
    That is why it was an OR statement, right? The times where it is laziness is when a mention is just thrown out there to attempt to lend weight to a story via an event outside the story, where the story itself lacks any impetus. Show, don't tell. I am not asking the wheel to be reinvented, but if an event is worth bringing up, the story it is being mentioned in better be worth referencing it.

    But I don't want to derail your thread, I just wanted to offer a perspective where these stories can be enjoyed without worrying about ramifications that usually don't play out.

  13. #13
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cranger View Post
    I bailed on this thread last time and will again as I feel like people are using the same words to talk about completely different things, but as someone with little to no reading of DC prior to Flashpoint (aside from Death of Superman) none of this stuff needs context to me. These are just references to some event that happened to whatever character for the purpose of this story. If it happens to connect to some story that occurred pre-FP that means nothing to me. If none of the other details of that story are mentioned in this story, they mean nothing to me. Writers using pre-FP stories to form the backstory of the new continuity is either a nice nod or laziness, but that is all it is and trying to take it as more than that will only lead to frustration from what I can see of those who fixate on bringing back the pre-FP stuff.
    YOU may not need the context but let's say DC wants to reintroduce Bloodwynd into the DCU. He has a brand new series focusing on him and how he starts his career. This then leads to the question of "was he apart of the Death of Superman if he is just now being introduced?" How did the Death of Superman happen? Do we just assume the new animated film is the current version? Will DC remake the story or release a new synopsis that covers the important story beats?

    See what I mean, I'm fine with DC saying okay these certain stories happened or didn't happen how they were printed but I (and probably the writing team) would like to know how things happened so they can write stories and characters accordingly. Stories are more than just references they are history in & out of the universe. These things help shape the characters, you can't have natural growth without it. Otherwise we'll just go story to story assuming things without actually knowing anything about the them. If all these stories we buy and read don't mean anything other than to be references than why get them?

    Why is Jason suddenly a part of the Bat-family when he has tried to kill a bunch of them so many times?

    How many incarnations are there of the Titans or the Justice League in this universe?

    Where is the JSA and all the other questions we have with them?

    This isn't about forcing the pre-flashpoint universe back (which I would like) but about understanding and knowing the universe we have right now. If I don't know about something why would I care?
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

    "In a short time, this will be a long time ago." - Werner Slow West

    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

  14. #14
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    This isn't about forcing the pre-flashpoint universe back (which I would like) but about understanding and knowing the universe we have right now. If I don't know about something why would I care?
    Because the uncertainty is part of the story thanks to what Johns revealed in DCU: Rebirth a couple years ago. It's an interesting idea that works for some, but not for others. I totally understand how it is frustrating for the DCU to be moving forward with its past in such an uncertain state. Obviously, it wasn't originally intended to stretch out this long, but, for better or worse, it seems to be working.

    The transition from the New 52 continuity to the hybrid Rebirth continuity that incorporates elements from all prior continuities seems to be almost complete. Stories like King's Heroes in Crisis, and Snyder's Justice League are either playing with all of the toys or outright explaining why they were broken to begin with, while Doomsday Clock seems to have settled on focusing on Superman, the JSA, and Legion.

  15. #15
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Because the uncertainty is part of the story thanks to what Johns revealed in DCU: Rebirth a couple years ago. It's an interesting idea that works for some, but not for others. I totally understand how it is frustrating for the DCU to be moving forward with its past in such an uncertain state. Obviously, it wasn't originally intended to stretch out this long, but, for better or worse, it seems to be working.

    The transition from the New 52 continuity to the hybrid Rebirth continuity that incorporates elements from all prior continuities seems to be almost complete. Stories like King's Heroes in Crisis, and Snyder's Justice League are either playing with all of the toys or outright explaining why they were broken to begin with, while Doomsday Clock seems to have settled on focusing on Superman, the JSA, and Legion.
    Intent does not equal execution. I could give you a million good story ideas but if I give you crap then, it's crap. Giving some mystery and intrigue is fine, hell it's expected. That's how you hook people, the problem is that they hook but don't reel, they just jerk us around and get upset when fans complain. We are how many years into Rebirth and yet we have barely any answers to what is going on other than Manhattan did stuff.

    Those stories may have those things in it but nothing seems to be happening due to terrible management and bad execution. At least in HIC case, I like Doomsday Clock so far but losing interest with each push back.
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    "One of the biggest problems in the industry is apathy right now." - Dan Didio Co-Publisher of I Wonder Why That Is Comics

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