Reconciling Marv Wolfman's concept of the Monitors' origin with Grant Morrison's?

[Buried Alien]

When Marv Wolfman provided the background to the two Monitors (e.g. the Monitor and the Anti-Monitor) in COIE during the 1980s, the mythology of both characters was rooted in the GREEN LANTERN mythos, specifically the Malthusian Krona and the antimatter universe of Qward.

Nearly a quarter of a century later in FINAL CRISIS, Grant Morrison offered a completely different view of the Monitors' origins - one that had little to do with the GL mythos, Krona, Qward, etc., but entirely new concepts such as the "Over-Monitor," etc. This concept will soon be explored further in MULTIVERSITY and whatever plans DC might have for a new CRISIS story in 2015.

How do we reconcile the Wolfman and Morrison versions of the Monitors' mythology? Is there any way that both versions can be valid?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Weapon X]

Nope. Grant essentially "Superboy-Prime Punched" Wolfman's Monitor origin out of continuity.

[king of hybrids]

over-monitor was created from the AI of krona's probe when he shot it into the past, exposure to the raw thoughtless conciousness of the overvoid and the raw power of the emotional spectrum (and the family dramas of the presence and his highest archangels) transformed it into over-monitor; then it encountered the nacsent multiverse and broke in twain?

[Weapon X]

I still have a hard time reconciling Morrison's Final Crisis to its own lead-ins; The Death of the New Gods & Countdown to Final Crisis.

[Buried Alien]

over-monitor was created from the AI of krona's probe when he shot it into the past, exposure to the raw thoughtless conciousness of the overvoid and the raw power of the emotional spectrum (and the family dramas of the presence and his highest archangels) transformed it into over-monitor; then it encountered the nacsent multiverse and broke in twain?

Hmmm...your ideas offer some intriguing possibilities.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[ReverseReverseFlash]

I still have a hard time reconciling Morrison's Final Crisis to its own lead-ins; The Death of the New Gods & Countdown to Final Crisis.

The only way to handle that is to consider that Darkseid and the New Gods were already dead, which is affecting reality. Darkseid's fall screwed with reality.

Or just try to not read either tie-in. They aren't very good.

over-monitor was created from the AI of krona's probe when he shot it into the past, exposure to the raw thoughtless conciousness of the overvoid and the raw power of the emotional spectrum (and the family dramas of the presence and his highest archangels) transformed it into over-monitor; then it encountered the nacsent multiverse and broke in twain?

The Over-Monitor predates Krona. Krona couldn't have created the universe that he exists in. The Over-Monitor came first. It is the absolute form. Nothing comes before or after, above, or below it.

Wolfman's Monitor concepts are not the 'true' versions, they're like projections of the Monitors in the multiverse.

[Lexrules]

The only way to handle that is to consider that Darkseid and the New Gods were already dead, which is affecting reality. Darkseid's fall screwed with reality.

Or just try to not read either tie-in. They aren't very good.


The Over-Monitor predates Krona. Krona couldn't have created the universe that he exists in. The Over-Monitor came first. It is the absolute form. Nothing comes before or after, above, or below it.

Wolfman's Monitor concepts are not the 'true' versions, they're like projections of the Monitors in the multiverse.

Yea, but Wolfman's came first so actually his is correct and Morrison is rewriting history. It's your classic comic book case of let me try to one up you.

[AlexanderLuthor]

Yea, but Wolfman's came first so actually his is correct and Morrison is rewriting history. It's your classic comic book case of let me try to one up you.

Well, in this case Morrison expanded, rather than contracted, the thought so it's possible that Wolfman's version is true but only a portion of the entire story. Entirely possible that what a being in the Multiverse would see is just a sliver of the whole.

[Buried Alien]

Well, in this case Morrison expanded, rather than contracted, the thought so it's possible that Wolfman's version is true but only a portion of the entire story. Entirely possible that what a being in the Multiverse would see is just a sliver of the whole.

To me, a being such as the Anti-Monitor who was able to threaten the reality of the DC Multiverse on a whole, on a scale that he did in COIE, seemed like more than a strange alien rising from the soil of Qward could have carried, so Morrison's additions to the Anti-Monitor's origins give the character more...not sure credibility is the word, but the closest that I can think of to characterize what I'm thinking.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Tandaemonium]

Easiest way I can think of:

Original E-1 Monitor and E-3 Anti-Monitor, which given our new definitions SHOULD still be the same Monitors now, just given new "Earths" to be designated to as multiverses swap in/out - There's probably a protocol in place decided upon by all the Monitors that "In Case of Discovery, Break Glass", so when Krona ran his experiments and saw what he saw, he's just seeing and concluding what the Monitors want him to and believe what they want him to believe so they can just continue on with their business.

[Montressor]

I prefer Wolfman's version, Morrison fan that I am, but Wolfman was first, so, yeah. This got me to thinking...remember when the Monitor first began appearing, all those years ago, and none of us knew wtf to make of him? I think I saw him first in a Teen Titans issue, and wrote him off as some new and mysterious TT villain. Then he began popping up everywhere, on all Earths, in all timelines, and you just knew there was something more to this guy.

After it was all said and done I always felt there should be a statue, a monument of some sort somewhere in the DCU to the guy. His existence was just that major.

[NeonZ]

In Wolfman's version, the Monitor and Anti-Monitor pretty much spontaneously sprouted out of nowhere when the single world was split into a multiverse. Morrison's origin could be seen as just explaining why that happened (the probe making contact with the multiverse), rather than actually making that explanation invalid.

[Montressor]

This, I like...as a kid I always did find it a bit corny that the two Monitors just literally popped out of nowhere, full grown.

[ReverseReverseFlash]

I prefer Wolfman's version, Morrison fan that I am, but Wolfman was first, so, yeah. This got me to thinking...remember when the Monitor first began appearing, all those years ago, and none of us knew wtf to make of him? I think I saw him first in a Teen Titans issue, and wrote him off as some new and mysterious TT villain. Then he began popping up everywhere, on all Earths, in all timelines, and you just knew there was something more to this guy.

After it was all said and done I always felt there should be a statue, a monument of some sort somewhere in the DCU to the guy. His existence was just that major.

The two versions don't contradict each other, though. Monitor and Anti-Monitor were probes sent into the multiverse by the Over-Monitor.

This literally means that the Over-Monitor just created his own characters and inserted them into the multiverse story as an experiment. That is why they rose up from Oa's and Qward's moons. That's the origin that Over-Monitor gave his creations.

Remember what I said in the other topics about the DCU being separated on two levels of the timestream? The universe has it's own continuity and the characters inside of it have their own. The Morrison version is the higher timestream, the Wolfman version is the character timestream version.

[Buried Alien]

I prefer Wolfman's version, Morrison fan that I am, but Wolfman was first, so, yeah. This got me to thinking...remember when the Monitor first began appearing, all those years ago, and none of us knew wtf to make of him? I think I saw him first in a Teen Titans issue, and wrote him off as some new and mysterious TT villain. Then he began popping up everywhere, on all Earths, in all timelines, and you just knew there was something more to this guy.

After it was all said and done I always felt there should be a statue, a monument of some sort somewhere in the DCU to the guy. His existence was just that major.

In his earliest appearances, the Monitor sold experimental weapons (of his own design and construction no doubt) to supervillains for *money*. Upon reflection, it seems jarring that such a cosmic being would covet money. It's like that moment when you realize that during one of his earliest appearances, Thanos was arrested by NYPD cops like a common hood.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)