What is your ideal direction for the next Superman movie?

[Vordan]

What do I want to see? Cavill back, continuing on from Justice League. The Superman we got by the end of JL is the one all of the MoS/BvS critics wanted...smiling, humorous, heroic, and they even squeezed in the Williams theme for him. Isn't that what you guys wanted out of Superman?

Myself, I LOVE Man of Steel. And I think BvS is a superhero "epic" not matched by anything but the last 45 minutes of Endgame. But, I got exactly what I wanted out of it...I got a 3-film character arc of Clark starting out, trying to become Superman, and fully achieving it after returning from death. So for me, I was excited to see what Cavill's fully formed Superman would look like post-JL. Cavill has charisma and charm for days, and I still think he is perfect for a brighter, more hopeful Superman. Based on anecdotal evidence (which doesn't mean much, but still) it appears that most of the complaints about his Superman that I have seen revolve around how his Superman was written, but not about Cavill himself. It appears, again just to me, that most people are fine with him in the role...why WB doesn't capitalize on this is beyond me. I know they are worried about a solo Superman film right now after the critical backlashes of the previous entries, but if they made a fun movie then it will come through in the marketing. You can still get people in to watch these movies if you play your cards right.

Perhaps the best route is to place him in someone else's film, ala Iron Man in Homecoming, to get people excited again. But I want to see Cavill back, and perhaps end it with the wedding they have set up. I'd like to see a villain we haven't seen yet, but I'd also like to see a movie where the whole planet isn't at stake. So perhaps Metallo or Parasite. If you want to go the humor route of something like Thor: Ragnarok, then bring in Mxy.

He was going to be in Shazam but couldn’t make it due to filming the Witcher if you believe the official word or because he wanted a new contract that paid him more and gave him more creative control if you believe the rumors. Cavill isn’t that popular, or at least not to the point I think the general audience would not show up to a Superman movie with better reviews. He’s the Andrew Garfield of the DCEU right now I feel.

[Super-Cyke]

Abrams and his company (Bad Robot) signed that deal with WB. I don't care for his work on Star Wars but I enjoyed his Star Trek stuff, I'm not much of a Star Trek fan though so that may be why I liked it alright. I hear Star Trek fans generally don't like Abrams' work on the franchise. In Abrams' defense, I have read speculation that the Abrams' Trek movies had to look/feel different from the Star Trek shows because of copyright and ownership of the franchise not being with the company that made the films (which now with CBS merging with whatever company they recently merged with, this is no longer an issue). Despite never really loving anything Abrams has done, I am curious if he could direct a Superman movie that captures the heart of the best Superman stories. Seeing how well Whedon handled Cap in Avengers part 1 (Whedon totally set the blueprint that Russo Brothers and MCU followed for Cap), I really feel like Whedon could capture Superman's spirit and voice

[Yoda]

The point I was making with the Aquaman stuff was that that is the hugely successful direction WB took Aquaman, a character with no real romantic roots or female fanbase. Superman, especially live action Superman, has strong romantic roots and a large female fanbase and they haven't really tried that hard yet. 40% of Man of Steel's audience was women and the marketing barely had Lois in it if I recall correctly. There's decades of established success with the romantic angle. It's there waiting to be tapped.

As for using Lana, I guess my question is why? What does that get you? She's literally a Lois Lane placeholder 99% of the time and her most effective and well known identity in the public (to the extent she's known at all) is as a youthful relationship he has to move past or leave behind to come into his own. I guess in that capacity you could use her, but I don't really want to see Smallville eat up more time in a Superman movie again. I mean, Lois Lane is the co-star and Superman's love interest in the general public consciousness. If you're doing a Superman movie that isn't set in Smallville, narratively, the role is Lois' and Lana doesn't fit. Changing things just to change them never works out. Superman and Lois Lane are one of the, if not the, best known pop culture couple. If it's just, "we've seen Superman and Lois before." Eh, that's not a reason, that's New52 logic that went nowhere. People don't care if you redo stuff and it's as good or better than it had been done before. And there's plenty of room to work with here.

Look at the CW. They brought Superman in and by Superman's third appearance had a really well received Lois with the stinger for their big crossover was Lois & Clark having a baby and getting engaged. Two characters who aren't regulars on any of the show got their own epilogue. An epilogue that people loved. That really should tell you a lot of how Lois & Clark are viewed in this context. People kinda like to pretend the CW doesn't matter, when I would be willing to bet the popularity of that scene (and Hoechlin's very positively accepted Superman) means more to WB's than anything DC Comics puts out.

To bring it back on topic, I think at this point I would like to see a reboot starting over from a young Superman. Spider-Man Homecoming would be a good model how to reboot I think, using Morrison's Action Comics as a loose template mixed with Parasite and Lex as the villains in the first, President Lex/Bizarro or non-Zod Phantom Zone Criminals for the second movie and then Brainiac/Lex for the third. I don't want to see Krypton blow up again or spend any real time with Smallville. We don't need an hour of the movie devoted to that stuff again. The first movie needs to lean hard on the social justice warrior Superman. Morrison's costume and power levels, taking out gentrifying slumlords, corrupt cops, white supremacists, sweatshop factories, etc. It if doesn't piss of Fox News, they missed the mark. Luthor is the thread connecting it all and Luthor Corp is basically angling to take over the city.

For the Luthor has been done already people, eh. Again, I don't think that is something that the movie going public really cares about. Look at the CW - Cryer's Luthor was hugely popular, hailed as one of the best takes and f'n awesome. Again, people don't care if you redo stuff and it's good. If it's done well, people will watch it.

I think Snyder did hit a good modern Lex, though he was way to young. Lex really should be an Elon Musks or Jeff Bezos' type figure. For Parasite, I like the Secret Origin/American Alien take on Parasite as him being a normal human subject to Lex's secret programs, and it should be body horror stuff but not too much so it makes the movie a hard PG-13, like the DCEU movies have been. They need to aim for MCU level content so people are comfortable taking their kids.

The first movie I think you have the Lex trying for a take over of Metropolis and experimenting with Phantom Zone tech that leads to Parasite (and in the second Brainiac). I think the battle with parasite results in a power boost for Superman that gets him to the true Superman power levels. Importantly, while Lois & Clark working together seemingly get the goods on Luthor and it should take him down. Luthor outs Superman as an alien having captured him and experimented on him earlier. Lois should find out Superman is an alien before this though, so Luthor can use that to discredit her as well. This also sets up Bizzaro in the second movie.

The crash to black and credits is Clark revealing his identity to Lois.

You have rival reporters Lois & Clark working at the Luthor Corp story the and the experimentation angles and a classic rivalry that leads to attraction. But Clark is doing the standard dumb superhero I can't have relationships thing, but obviously that's not going to last. And whoever they cast need to have ridiculous chemistry, like Caitriona Balfe & Sam Heughan or Tess Virtue and Scott Moir where people are actively pissed off or baffled that these two aren't a couple in real life. So yeah, I most definitely want to have a strong romantic plot and I think you can keep the triangle for two with Clark/Lois/Superman for at most the first movie. I think that lets you build the chemistry and sexual tension. In fact, given we're starting off at Golden Age power levels, I think a strong romantic character focused plot is essential. I think you can tease Lois & Clark and Lois & Superman throughout the first movie, with Lois & Clark not becoming a real couple until after he reveals his ID to her.

Also, I want a mid credits scene is longer than normal and is the Krypto Phantom Zone rescue for Morrison's Action. BluRay special edition has the ghost dog scenes edited over different points of the films.

[Korath]

The point I was making with the Aquaman stuff was that that is the hugely successful direction WB took Aquaman, a character with no real romantic roots or female fanbase. Superman, especially live action Superman, has strong romantic roots and a large female fanbase and they haven't really tried that hard yet. 40% of Man of Steel's audience was women and the marketing barely had Lois in it if I recall correctly. There's decades of established success with the romantic angle. It's there waiting to be tapped.

Uh... what ? Mera has been rather important to the Aquaman, mythos for a long time now. New 52 cemented her back, but she has been important for decades. There is a reason Death of a Prince was so brutal and a punch in the guts. She's also an accomplished and extremely interesting character, able to hold her own easily compared to Aquaman (her powers and upbringing, in whatever relation Xebel has with Atlantis, allows her to be very knowledgeable of the undersea life and "alien" compared to Arthur).

I know that Lois has a lot of fans, and it's perfectly fine, but I really don't feel anything for this character, I don't find her relationship with Clark all that great (it's basically two super-privileged elite white peoples making out without much of a real question about what it means to not be from the US culturally or anything of the like, in spite of DC/WB best effort to make us think that Clark, who is as born and bred in the Midwest as any adopted child not born there could be, is so alien because of his Kryptonian upbringing. Which I don't buy. His powers make him different, not his mindset or his culture or upbringing).

I would also dislike seeing the New 52 Superman origin be hijacked to be given to mainstream Superman. They already did it in the new Death of Superman animation, where they stole the lines of New 52 Wonder Woman and Superman to give them to those versions of Lois and Clark, and it was infuriating enough. It's not as if the first Death of Superman comics hadn't strong moment between the two. They had to disrespect the Final Days of Superman and not let both New 52 Superman and Wonder Woman rest in piece.

[Yoda]

Uh... what ? Mera has been rather important to the Aquaman, mythos for a long time now. New 52 cemented her back, but she has been important for decades. There is a reason Death of a Prince was so brutal and a punch in the guts. She's also an accomplished and extremely interesting character, able to hold her own easily compared to Aquaman (her powers and upbringing, in whatever relation Xebel has with Atlantis, allows her to be very knowledgeable of the undersea life and "alien" compared to Arthur).

I know that Lois has a lot of fans, and it's perfectly fine, but I really don't feel anything for this character, I don't find her relationship with Clark all that great (it's basically two super-privileged elite white peoples making out without much of a real question about what it means to not be from the US culturally or anything of the like, in spite of DC/WB best effort to make us think that Clark, who is as born and bred in the Midwest as any adopted child not born there could be, is so alien because of his Kryptonian upbringing. Which I don't buy. His powers make him different, not his mindset or his culture or upbringing).

I would also dislike seeing the New 52 Superman origin be hijacked to be given to mainstream Superman. They already did it in the new Death of Superman animation, where they stole the lines of New 52 Wonder Woman and Superman to give them to those versions of Lois and Clark, and it was infuriating enough. It's not as if the first Death of Superman comics hadn't strong moment between the two. They had to disrespect the Final Days of Superman and not let both New 52 Superman and Wonder Woman rest in piece.

10 out of 10 people couldn’t have told you who Mera was even after her appearance in Justice League. She is no where near the level of recognition as Lois. We’re talking mainstream movie audiences. Not comic fans. I’m actually all for casting Lois & Clark as non-white. Lois is just as narratively strong of a character as Mera, if not more so. I disagree completely with the rest. If his powers are all that you see that make him different then I don’t know what to tell you.

As for “stealing” eh. Again, no one outside of a small subsection if comics fans cares about that and comics fans aren’t what we are talking about. Morrison’s origin was the only thing about New 52 Superman worth keeping.

[Korath]

10 out of 10 people couldn’t have told you who Mera was even after her appearance in Justice League. She is no where near the level of recognition as Lois. We’re talking mainstream movie audiences. Not comic fans. I’m actually all for casting Lois & Clark as non-white. Lois is just as narratively strong of a character as Mera, if not more so. I disagree completely with the rest. If his powers are all that you see that make him different then I don’t know what to tell you.

As for “stealing” eh. Again, no one outside of a small subsection if comics fans cares about that and comics fans aren’t what we are talking about. Morrison’s origin was the only thing about New 52 Superman worth keeping.

I am pretty sure that non-comic readers had no idea who Steve Trevor was before Wonder Woman by Patty Jenkins. it doesn't mean that for a lot of people who knows her series, he is considered the equal of Lois. Same goes for Mera.

As for Superman... he isn't an immigrant. he's an adopted baby. Sure, he learns about Krypton, but it isn't who he is. At least for me, it's obvious that he is Clark Kent, a good guy from rural Kansas trying to do good. Not Kal-El of Krypton first, or a strange amalgamation. Clark Kent who learns of his origins and tries to relate to them, like a lot of people do around the world, without having been molded by them.

As for what's worth keeping in the New 52 Superman, if I could, I would keep all of it, but on a separate Earth. People who shat on this version of the character don't deserve to pilfer it of any part to give them to their favored version.

[Superlad93]

Edit10 characters

[Yoda]

I am pretty sure that non-comic readers had no idea who Steve Trevor was before Wonder Woman by Patty Jenkins. it doesn't mean that for a lot of people who knows her series, he is considered the equal of Lois. Same goes for Mera.

As for Superman... he isn't an immigrant. he's an adopted baby. Sure, he learns about Krypton, but it isn't who he is. At least for me, it's obvious that he is Clark Kent, a good guy from rural Kansas trying to do good. Not Kal-El of Krypton first, or a strange amalgamation. Clark Kent who learns of his origins and tries to relate to them, like a lot of people do around the world, without having been molded by them.

As for what's worth keeping in the New 52 Superman, if I could, I would keep all of it, but on a separate Earth. People who shat on this version of the character don't deserve to pilfer it of any part to give them to their favored version.

Morrison’s version borrows from the Golden Age version. And New 52 borrowed plenty from other versions, the fact that you’re arguing About Death of Superman is kinda hilarious in this context. Where’d that story come from? Every version of the character takes and builds on from what came before. I’m not even going to touch the rest. But I think your interpretation is not what most see in the character or his origins.

[manwhohaseverything]

I am pretty sure that non-comic readers had no idea who Steve Trevor was before Wonder Woman by Patty Jenkins. it doesn't mean that for a lot of people who knows her series, he is considered the equal of Lois. Same goes for Mera.

As for Superman... he isn't an immigrant. he's an adopted baby. Sure, he learns about Krypton, but it isn't who he is. At least for me, it's obvious that he is Clark Kent, a good guy from rural Kansas trying to do good. Not Kal-El of Krypton first, or a strange amalgamation. Clark Kent who learns of his origins and tries to relate to them, like a lot of people do around the world, without having been molded by them.

As for what's worth keeping in the New 52 Superman, if I could, I would keep all of it, but on a separate Earth. People who shat on this version of the character don't deserve to pilfer it of any part to give them to their favored version.

You think a stories like "for the man who has everything" would work if clark wasn't an immigrant? Clark specifically dreams of a life in his home world, surrounded by his people and culture. How is that gonna work if clark didn't feel any sense of alienation in his adopted world. If the pre crisis version even had memories of his world. How is he not an immigrant?
I would agree that, post crisis superman is more of an adopted baby as you put it. But, even then he is more like second generation immigrant. Post crisis superman at first didn't think much of his heritage (many 2nd generation immigrants don't) and then came to except it later on. So, even by that standard he is still an immigrant.

[Yoda]

I am pretty sure that non-comic readers had no idea who Steve Trevor was before Wonder Woman by Patty Jenkins. it doesn't mean that for a lot of people who knows her series, he is considered the equal of Lois. Same goes for Mera.

I just want to clear this up, because you're not getting what I was saying before or in response. I think you're arguing my own point in way. Lois & Clark are a known romance outside of comics. The romantic angles (and audience awareness of that angle) that did so well for Aquaman (and if you actually look at the article it's Atlanna's romance that they are talking about, not only Mera & Aquaman) and Wonder Woman had to build that up marketing had to focus on that. A lot of that groundwork is already there in the public consciousness with Lois & Clark because they've been one of most well known and liked couples in pop culture for decades. There already is a fanbase of women (and men) who know and want to see that romance on screen. That's the point. We're talking about making a successful mass market movie.

[Superlad93]

What movie would I ideally like to see next? Something really simple.

Spider-Man: Homecoming style reboot: clear reboot, but with special care to stay away from the "first day" and all that come with it.

Establish that all the things one assumes coming into Superman are there (Clark Kent, Daily Planet, married or long term dating Lois, Jimmy's around, and he's known round the world).

James Bond style antagonist set: brains guy, brawn guy.

Mystery is directly relation to the antagonist set

Leave most of the room for Clark/Superman as a character to stretch his legs and bounce off other characters and the world around him.

Simple pitch: Superman's gone from benevolent but unknown alien to full on international celebrity. You can even open with a charity demonstration by Superman. Functionally you introduce Clark and Superman, you give them some personality (Superman obviously feels awkward about all of the attention), introduce Lois and Jimmy as the press, imply the Lois and Clark relationship (later to be fully confirmed and part of the film), what the world thinks of Superman, and satisfy the something has to happen within the first 15 minutes of a screenplay idea with Superman, I dunno, hitting a specially made baseball over to the moon or into another country for the aforementioned charity event.

Set up the personal conflict that relates to the overall plot of the film: as Clark's star as Superman rises, he finds that it's getting harder and harder to get back to the relatively smaller things he used to tackle. This can even be mirrored in Clark's life as a reporter.

Our Bond style (brains/brawn) villains: Toyman and Metallo. Toyman's an idiosyncratic DIY genius, and Metallo's muscle (Toyman's "action figure") with a sad and mysterious backstory to be found out during the film. They'd fight Superman Dark Knight Joker style. Very gorilla warfare.

The mystery: missing kids, super terrorist attacks, and who are Toyman and Metallo.

It would all be about execution. That's the main thing. Keeps things very simple, but aim for as high quality as possible. I also wanna make special mention of how important I think it is that the next films move away from "he's a god!!", and instead over to something more digestible like him being mega celebrity. No need to wax poetic for this incarnation. Lets get down to actual business more.

It would be film 2 in this new continuity that you could get a little crazier. I personally like the trajectory of Superman having more and more expected of him, so I'd honestly eventually pivot towards the basic President of Earth idea. We'd also be working towards the Legion because that would effectively give Superman his own private superhero universe. I mean, if Aquaman is getting the Trench horror film and possible The Others in his next film, and Shazam has Black Adam, Harley has The Birds plus SS, then I don't see why Superman's section can't spawn and bounce off from the Legion.

[Nelliebly]

10 out of 10 people couldn’t have told you who Mera was even after her appearance in Justice League. She is no where near the level of recognition as Lois. We’re talking mainstream movie audiences. Not comic fans. I’m actually all for casting Lois & Clark as non-white. Lois is just as narratively strong of a character as Mera, if not more so. I disagree completely with the rest. If his powers are all that you see that make him different then I don’t know what to tell you.

As for “stealing” eh. Again, no one outside of a small subsection if comics fans cares about that and comics fans aren’t what we are talking about. Morrison’s origin was the only thing about New 52 Superman worth keeping.

Agreed to all of this. Yeah, I’m sorry but I’m rolling my eyes at the “super privileged white people making out” comment for a number of reasons. For starters, I’m rolling my eyes because not only is the Lois and Clark fandom notoriously female heavy but a good portion of it are women who openly identify as WOC and bisexual women. It’s their place and not mine to respond as to why they personally identify with Lois specifically and always have and their voices are plentiful. T

Two, I’m laughing hysterically at the implication that Lois and Clark are the couple that have privilege issues on a board where people go out of their way to try to kill her or sideline her to ship him with Wonder Woman. If someone wants to discuss the high key most privileged as crap relationship in comics history where both parties have enormous amounts of power, beauty and unlimited privilege , we can do so but I really don’t think you want to tug on that string.

Three, Lois Lane is older than Clark. It’s why the actress has almost always been subjected to a ridiculous amount of misogyny and ageism. That’s actually a massively big deal to a LOT of women, an ACTUAL subversion to most male/female pairings and absolutely makes them different from your standard pairing. It’s extremely uncool to dress this fact as the age difference between them has been a source of abuse for the actresses going all the way back to Kidder and pretending this ::didn’t:: happen and erasing what a big deal it is to see a male/female pairing portrayed this way is actually not ok. A male/female pairing that challenged gender ageism is not a standard pairing and never will be. Not when there are 50 other male/female pairings on the CW alone maintaining the older man/younger woman status quo.

Finally, if you have a problem with them being white, the answer isn’t to get rid of Lois. The answer is to get a diverse cast. Something, I’m sure, nearly all of her fandom would welcome with the caveat that whoever they cast will undoubtedly be abused (as she always is) even if she’s white and so people better be ready to rally around whoever they cast and protect her. Elizabeth Tulloch is Latina btw. Spanish is her first language. Given the way Superman fandom regularly abandons and abuses even the white women cast as Lois to misogynist abuse, call me skeptical that men would actually protect her the way she would deserve. This is all, actually, super complicated and the actresses are always the ones who pay. So by all means, I think a lot of people would die to see a black Woman, for example, as Lois but people better show up to protect that woman from the abuse that would undoubtedly follow her. And they don’t even protect the ::white:: actresses. It’s all super messed up. No one ever shows up to rally for these women and it’s anger inducing.

But what we definitely aren’t gonna do is try to write a woman out of her story and try and replace her as co-star and pretend that it’s actually the “woke” thing to do ESPECIALLY when you are pushing a rival ship—also white People—where both people literally have all the power in the universe. LOL See right through that.

[LoveStar]

Agreed to all of this. Yeah, I’m sorry but I’m rolling my eyes at the “super privileged white people making out” comment for a number of reasons. For starters, I’m rolling my eyes because not only is the Lois and Clark fandom notoriously female heavy but a good portion of it are women who openly identify as WOC and bisexual women. It’s their place and not mine to respond as to why they personally identify with Lois specifically and always have and their voices are plentiful. T

Two, I’m laughing hysterically at the implication that Lois and Clark are the couple that have privilege issues on a board where people go out of their way to try to kill her or sideline her to ship him with Wonder Woman. If someone wants to discuss the high key most privileged as crap relationship in comics history where both parties have enormous amounts of power, beauty and unlimited privilege , we can do so but I really don’t think you want to tug on that string.

Three, Lois Lane is older than Clark. It’s why the actress has almost always been subjected to a ridiculous amount of misogyny and ageism. That’s actually a massively big deal to a LOT of women, an ACTUAL subversion to most male/female pairings and absolutely makes them different from your standard pairing. It’s extremely uncool to dress this fact as the age difference between them has been a source of abuse for the actresses going all the way back to Kidder and pretending this ::didn’t:: happen and erasing what a big deal it is to see a male/female pairing portrayed this way is actually not ok. A male/female pairing that challenged gender ageism is not a standard pairing and never will be. Not when there are 50 other male/female pairings on the CW alone maintaining the older man/younger woman status quo.

Finally, if you have a problem with them being white, the answer isn’t to get rid of Lois. The answer is to get a diverse cast. Something, I’m sure, nearly all of her fandom would welcome with the caveat that whoever they cast will undoubtedly be abused (as she always is) even if she’s white and so people better be ready to rally around whoever they cast and protect her. Elizabeth Tulloch is Latina btw. Spanish is her first language. Given the way Superman fandom regularly abandons and abuses even the white women cast as Lois to misogynist abuse, call me skeptical that men would actually protect her the way she would deserve. This is all, actually, super complicated and the actresses are always the ones who pay. So by all means, I think a lot of people would die to see a black Woman, for example, as Lois but people better show up to protect that woman from the abuse that would undoubtedly follow her. And they don’t even protect the ::white:: actresses. It’s all super messed up. No one ever shows up to rally for these women and it’s anger inducing.

But what we definitely aren’t gonna do is try to write a woman out of her story and try and replace her as co-star and pretend that it’s actually the “woke” thing to do ESPECIALLY when you are pushing a rival ship—also white People—where both people literally have all the power in the universe. LOL See right through that.

As a black woman myself, I do not. Please do not try to speak for “all” women and especially WOC when you do not know exactly how we feel or think. Black women are often used as stereotypes or some kind of false empowerment or propping some kind of agenda. Changing a characters ethnicity does not automatically prove or represent diversity. Nor automatically mean identifying with a character.

[Nelliebly]

As a black woman myself, I do not. Please do not try to speak for “all” women and especially WOC when you do not know exactly how we feel or think. Black women are often used as stereotypes or some kind of false empowerment or propping some kind of agenda. Changing a characters ethnicity does not automatically prove or represent diversity. Nor automatically mean identifying with a character.

Literally nowhere in my post did I try to speak for all women. If fact, I literally said word for word “it’s not my place to speak for those women and their voices are plentiful.” I agree with you that this is all extremely complicated.

There definitely are black women in the Lois and Clark fandom though who would like to see her cast that way. One of them wrote this famous essay that’s been shared far and wide. These are HER words. Not mine. You are definitely right on that changing a character’s ethnicity doesn’t mean people automatically identify with her. But I never said that it did and I acknowledged that this is all super complicated and, ultimately, I’m concerned about how women are treated.

https://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/20...-lane-matters/

If you don’t agree with her, that’s obviously something you can discuss with her. She’s a longtime fan of Superman and Lois Lane specifically. Best to you.

[The World]

Okay lets not have this thread become a proxy shipping war thread people.