Dan Jurgens on Death of Superman, New 52-to-Rebirth transition

[Vordan]

Yeah, new costumes like the electric blue and red Superman (sorry Vordan), tiered variants or "special covers," getting J.J. Abbrams to "write" a Spider-Man series. Sudden status quo shifts can be gimmicky, but even then I think that depends on whether they are intended to stick around as a new thought out direction or just done haphazardly to boost sales on the controversy.

I can see the argument that Jon could be considered a gimmick, sudden aged kid is a trope after all, but I don't think that that really flies given his continued existence, use in and outside the DCU (people ignore he has the Ink book, Young Justice, CWverse maybe). I think something like Chris Kent fits that bill a lot more in the mold of "Cousin Oliver." (I'm dating myself). We're almost 4 years into Jon's debut and he'll be a main character in his own book again in a month. Not really a gimmick.

Oh yeah Abrams’ Spider-Man is a good example of a creator team being a gimmick.

Lmao well it worked! I wanted to know why the hell he was blue! And I love the costume, even though the origin is dumb as sin, can’t help it lol. Godfall would be another example of a gimmick storyline although that was rather enjoyable if I just enjoyed Turner’s art.

[Sacred Knight]

Still mad Electric Blue was so ignored insofar as the reason. It could have and should have been confirmed being connected to the then-recently returned Kandor to continuity. It was hinted at but it never went anywhere and in the end, no solid explanation whatsoever.

[Vordan]

Still mad Electric Blue was so ignored insofar as the reason. It could have and should have been confirmed being connected to the then-recently returned Kandor to continuity. It was hinted at but it never went anywhere and in the end, no solid explanation whatsoever.

I like to think it’s the juvenile form of his Golden One Million body. Personally I’d have it be what happens to Kryptonians if they stay too long under blue suns. They go from being able to give others their powers to becoming pure power themselves.

[Myskin]

Man of Steel was already filming in Aug. 2011 before the new52 happened. Goyer wrote the script already in 2010, I think. So, I doubt Morrison origin served as a pitch for anything back then. But some of us saw the Rebirth's Tomasi run and Supersons as blatant pitches for animation due to their cartoonish style. And it was recently revealed that a Rebirth inspired Superman Family cartoon was pitched but rejected by a Network. If I have to bet, it was the rejection of the cartoon pitch that led to the shake up under Bendis.

Sorry, I may have been mistaken about some dates. However, I vividly remember a pre-MOS Morrison interview where he openly suggested Metallo and Brainiac as the main villains in the upcoming Superman cinematic relaunch. There were also some rumors about DC writers suggesting pitches for the movie.

So, I'd say that Morrison's opening arc on Action Comics is 50% his rejected pitch and 50% the unused All-Star Superman special. Regarding the several details in common between the arc and Johns' Secret Origins/Brainiac, I'd say that at one point (before SO) the editors were strongly suggesting some specific plot elements for unknown reasons and Morrison did his best to incorporate them in his book, while being relatively free on the other stories of his run.

I 100% agree on your theory about the rejected cartoon pitch and I think that it is the Nth confirmation that most of the creative decisions are taken for corporate reasons, and what we see in the books themselves is mostly a byproduct of a more complex situation.

The reason I think in Johns' head that Oz was originally going to be Jonathan was that one panel where Oz is watching Superman fight on monitors, and urges him to get up and not quit, as it was something he taught Clark.

Well, in Doomsday Clock Dr Manhattan basically spoilers:

created

end of spoilers New52 Superman, spoilers:

thus giving him a specific morality and attitude

end of spoilers. I'd say that Johns simply swapped Ozymandias for Manhattan at one point.

P.S. Yes, I know that New52 Superman being the "dark" and "reckless" Superman is nonsense. But that's how DC is presenting him these days.

[Masterff]

I like to think it’s the juvenile form of his Golden One Million body. Personally I’d have it be what happens to Kryptonians if they stay too long under blue suns. They go from being able to give others their powers to becoming pure power themselves.

Thats not true:
Lana Lang as Superwoman was similar to the Blue Electric Superman.
So I think its like the Jonathan Lane Kent and NEW52 Kon El, just a variation of powers, which can happen if you change some circumstances.

Its more something what happens if you play around with Kryptonian DNA.

If I remind correctly it was also so that the Fortress of Solitude Robots didnt recognize him..

[DragonPiece]

Didn’t like him, gets that some people did, saw the success of Rebirth as vindication that people preferred the Post Crisis status quo to what came after.

don't think anyone didn't expect that, just based on how he passively aggressively wrote scenes talking about new 52 superman.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Sorry, I may have been mistaken about some dates. However, I vividly remember a pre-MOS Morrison interview where he openly suggested Metallo and Brainiac as the main villains in the upcoming Superman cinematic relaunch. There were also some rumors about DC writers suggesting pitches for the movie.

So, I'd say that Morrison's opening arc on Action Comics is 50% his rejected pitch and 50% the unused All-Star Superman special. Regarding the several details in common between the arc and Johns' Secret Origins/Brainiac, I'd say that at one point (before SO) the editors were strongly suggesting some specific plot elements for unknown reasons and Morrison did his best to incorporate them in his book, while being relatively free on the other stories of his run.

I too heard of that. Johns and Waid pitched their ideas for the potential movie too and, if I'm not mistaken, Waid's pitch was based on his Birthright.

I 100% agree on your theory about the rejected cartoon pitch and I think that it is the Nth confirmation that most of the creative decisions are taken for corporate reasons, and what we see in the books themselves is mostly a byproduct of a more complex situation.

Yeah, it's both tossing potential ideas for adaptations (and abandoning them if they don't get picked) or the bigger medias influencing comics. We saw that happening many times with different franchises especially after DC moved in California to work close with WB.

[Myskin]

I too heard of that. Johns and Waid pitched their ideas for the potential movie too and, if I'm not mistaken, Waid's pitch was based on his Birthright.

I confirm. I heard rumors about Morrison pitching All-Star, too.

Yeah, it's both tossing potential ideas for adaptations (and abandoning them if they don't get picked) or the bigger medias influencing comics. We saw that happening many times with different franchises especially after DC moved in California to work close with WB.

According to some fans/insiders, Birthright itself (the very first story which paved the way for the endless series of reboots/revamps) was initially planned as a "Ultimate Superman" basis for a possible movie, several years before DC moving to Burbank and MOS. I guess that there is some truth to it, since Superman Returns (a movie which was basically created to avoid a lawsuit) came out just one-two years after Birthright.

It never ceases to amaze me how often the same pattern repeated itself - DC plans to use some of its IPs for movies/Tv series and commissions a standalone story or a rebooted origin story which could be used as a source of inspiration for the movies. It's as if it was somehow necessary for the appointed filmmakers and producers to build their movie/series on already elaborated and revamped material, instead of working on the original sources (that is, the original books). I don't know if the same rule applies for Marvel movies, but should it be so I cannot be astonished at how incredibly skillful they were at thinking long term by creating an entire comic line - the Ultimate Universe - which could be used as a reference for a cinematic universe.

[Last Son of Krypton]

I confirm. I heard rumors about Morrison pitching All-Star, too.

Found the source: https://web.archive.org/web/20131013...ters-chime-in/

According to some fans/insiders, Birthright itself (the very first story which paved the way for the endless series of reboots/revamps) was initially planned as a "Ultimate Superman" basis for a possible movie, several years before DC moving to Burbank and MOS. I guess that there is some truth to it, since Superman Returns (a movie which was basically created to avoid a lawsuit) came out just one-two years after Birthright.

Birthright would've been a perfect template for a movie, imo. Sadly, the story and the relaunch that came out it was trashed for more Donner influences as soon as Superman Returns was about to hit the theaters. 🙄

It never ceases to amaze me how often the same pattern repeated itself - DC plans to use some of its IPs for movies/Tv series and commissions a standalone story or a rebooted origin story which could be used as a source of inspiration for the movies. It's as if it was somehow necessary for the appointed filmmakers and producers to build their movie/series on already elaborated and revamped material, instead of working on the original sources (that is, the original books). I don't know if the same rule applies for Marvel movies, but should it be so I cannot be astonished at how incredibly skillful they were at thinking long term by creating an entire comic line - the Ultimate Universe - which could be used as a reference for a cinematic universe.

I guess it's cheaper having already a low-cost storyboard in comic-book form and testing it with a smaller audience of comic-book readers.

I'm not familiar with Marvel comics so I can't speak of them. DC is still looking for the right formula for a character like Superman and jump from a take to another till they'll found what will work best on both medium.

Their next relaunch in 2021 will be probably shaped by whatever kind of Superman they'll think WB wants to bring on the big screen if there'll not be already a movie in the works to dictate the direction of the franchise.

[Myskin]

Birthright would've been a perfect template for a movie, imo. Sadly, the story and the relaunch that came out it was trashed for more Donner influences as soon as Superman Returns was about to hit the theaters. 🙄

True (I have some reservations about the second half of the story though), even if I'd say that the fans have a responsibility in that, too. When DC presented Birthright (in the worst possible way, as an in-continuity/out-of-continuity story) the fans' reaction was nasty. Fans' comments literally destroyed every single issue, even if today most readers seem to have forgotten it.

Their next relaunch in 2021 will be probably shaped by whatever kind of Superman they'll think WB wants to bring on the big screen if there'll not be already a movie in the works to dictate the direction of the franchise.

Maybe. By the way, I just realized one bizarre thing - that is, since Rebirth we have been reading stories which are all potentially out of continuity, because there are some elements - primarily Jor-El being alive, but not only that - which cannot reconcile with any classic Superman continuity. It's as if everything which is currently published nowadays was temporary.
As soon as Jor-El goes back to Krypton's destruction, we could get a reset. Which may or may not include Jon and the Legion too.

[Vordan]

Thats not true:
Lana Lang as Superwoman was similar to the Blue Electric Superman.
So I think its like the Jonathan Lane Kent and NEW52 Kon El, just a variation of powers, which can happen if you change some circumstances.

Its more something what happens if you play around with Kryptonian DNA.

If I remind correctly it was also so that the Fortress of Solitude Robots didnt recognize him..

Oh I know that’s not the “actual” reason, it’s just something that I think would be cool. If I ever become the next Geoff Johns I’ll make it canon just like his Superboy retcon lol.

don't think anyone didn't expect that, just based on how he passively aggressively wrote scenes talking about new 52 superman.

And to be fair that’s fine. It would be downright hypocritical of me to complain about Jurgens not liking that interpretation given how I feel nowadays about the Byrne interpretation that Jurgens prefers.

True (I have some reservations about the second half of the story though), even if I'd say that the fans have a responsibility in that, too. When DC presented Birthright (in the worst possible way, as an in-continuity/out-of-continuity story) the fans' reaction was nasty. Fans' comments literally destroyed every single issue, even if today most readers seem to have forgotten it.



Maybe. By the way, I just realized one bizarre thing - that is, since Rebirth we have been reading stories which are all potentially out of continuity, because there are some elements - primarily Jor-El being alive, but not only that - which cannot reconcile with any classic Superman continuity. It's as if everything which is currently published nowadays was temporary.
As soon as Jor-El goes back to Krypton's destruction, we could get a reset. Which may or may not include Jon and the Legion too.

Probably because it “messed up” continuity is why Post Crisis people didn’t like it. And they’re right, it did indeed basically reboot Superman again, setting a trend that would continue. Nowadays I don’t think people care as much because we’ve all gotten used to Superman continuity being screwed. Still it is extremely annoying that there are all these stories out here that would make for perfectly fine Superman films, but directors think they’re too good for the material and either wank off to Donner or go full edgelord.

[Last Son of Krypton]

True (I have some reservations about the second half of the story though), even if I'd say that the fans have a responsibility in that, too. When DC presented Birthright (in the worst possible way, as an in-continuity/out-of-continuity story) the fans' reaction was nasty. Fans' comments literally destroyed every single issue, even if today most readers seem to have forgotten it.

Yeah, but if Birthright would've inspired a movie, DC would've ignored fans negative reactions and keep it as origin.

Maybe. By the way, I just realized one bizarre thing - that is, since Rebirth we have been reading stories which are all potentially out of continuity, because there are some elements - primarily Jor-El being alive, but not only that - which cannot reconcile with any classic Superman continuity. It's as if everything which is currently published nowadays was temporary.
As soon as Jor-El goes back to Krypton's destruction, we could get a reset. Which may or may not include Jon and the Legion too.

I agree it could be used as a catalyst of a reset, but I doubt they were thinking so far ahead when they revealed that Mr. Oz was Jor-El.

It's hard to think what will happen to Jon. It seems that right now they are settling for a middle ground by sending him in the future. Or that was what Jurgens thought when he claimed "He's the future"? 🤣

[Myskin]

I agree it could be used as a catalyst of a reset, but I doubt they were thinking so far ahead when they revealed that Mr. Oz was Jor-El.

Well, that's for sure. Basically every important decision taken for the Superman Family in the latest years seems to be completely random, including Jon's introduction in an almost out-of-continuity event like Convergence, or the Superman merger in Rebirth. Seriously, using Flashpoint as the catalyst for the New52 seems almost a well-thought plan in comparison.

I was simply thinking that, if you really reflect on it, the current Rebirth continuity - Jor-El alive, Jon Kent, no acknowledgements of the Kents at all, no clear origin story - almost seems like an Elseworlds, or a temporary situation waiting to be fixed. And yes, they could use Jor-El as a catalyst even if they don't really need it, since we have THREE events in development at the same time (Doomsday Clock, Justice/Doom War, the Sinister Six) and they all deal with alternate timelines and earths - with possibly one more in the waiting after Doomsday Clock.

By the way, it's been EIGHT years since the latest official, in-continuity retelling of the origin (the New52 one) and that's a longer break than the one between Secret Origins (2009) and New52 (2011) and the one between Birthright (2003) and Secret Origins (2009).

[Sacred Knight]

I like to think it’s the juvenile form of his Golden One Million body. Personally I’d have it be what happens to Kryptonians if they stay too long under blue suns. They go from being able to give others their powers to becoming pure power themselves.

Its been one of those things that I think someone could go back and actually capitalize on the non-explanation by making it important all these years later. Kinda how Johns took the yellow impurity in the GL mythos, which always was just there for no real reason, and made it important.

In fact I was kinda hoping this would be used to explain things during Superman Reborn. Think I might have even mentioned it a couple times at the time.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Well, that's for sure. Basically every important decision taken for the Superman Family in the latest years seems to be completely random, including Jon's introduction in an almost out-of-continuity event like Convergence, or the Superman merger in Rebirth. Seriously, using Flashpoint as the catalyst for the New52 seems almost a well-thought plan in comparison.

It's concerning how the character is handled. It's like they just don't care as long they can establish their new "pitch" as easily as they can.

I was simply thinking that, if you really reflect on it, the current Rebirth continuity - Jor-El alive, Jon Kent, no acknowledgements of the Kents at all, no clear origin story - almost seems like an Elseworlds, or a temporary situation waiting to be fixed. And yes, they could use Jor-El as a catalyst even if they don't really need it, since we have THREE events in development at the same time (Doomsday Clock, Justice/Doom War, the Sinister Six) and they all deal with alternate timelines and earths - with possibly one more in the waiting after Doomsday Clock.

It's not just Superman, you can say the same for a lot of DC franchises/characters right now.

By the way, it's been EIGHT years since the latest official, in-continuity retelling of the origin (the New52 one) and that's a longer break than the one between Secret Origins (2009) and New52 (2011) and the one between Birthright (2003) and Secret Origins (2009).

There was the brief retelling in the issues post Reborn in 2017 even if I consider it a placeholder (as well as the whole post-Reborn timeline)