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  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by jetengine View Post
    When a good chunk of American Conservatives are either pro or quietly ok with white supremacy its kind of hard not to call them out.

    As for Gwen. I dont think she's a white supremacist. Bullit kept his ties to hate groups low so all she knew she was signing up for was a hard right conservative who told her he could deal with (what she assumed) was her Fathers killer. She could have done more research and should have but she was in an emotional state.

    Also wasnt there an issue where Gwen is an out and out racist until someone calls her out ?
    I agree 100% with this. Just because someone is Conservative does not make them into pro white supremacy. I am Socially and Economically Conservative and my ex is Hispanic and I do not like being compared to Hitler supporters when it is not accurate. As for Gwen, I think she is taking an unnecessary beating over Sam Bullett. People can make a mistake ( especially when they are going through a tragic episode in their lives), and people need to understand this.

  2. #47
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    I agree 100% with this. Just because someone is Conservative does not make them into pro white supremacy. I am Socially and Economically Conservative and my ex is Hispanic and I do not like being compared to Hitler supporters when it is not accurate. As for Gwen, I think she is taking an unnecessary beating over Sam Bullett. People can make a mistake ( especially when they are going through a tragic episode in their lives), and people need to understand this.
    People aren't allowed to make mistakes in this day and age, nor apparently are fictional characters lol. Forgiveness and understanding are in short supply in our current year. If you said or did something stupid twenty years ago (or more) when you were a kid you better hope no one ever finds out about it. I mean it's not as if people can change or anything. Everyone should be forever condemned for everything they've done throughout their lives, no matter how long ago or trivial the perceived offense. Ain't nothing like a purity test to put people in their place to show 'em who is the boss until, of course, you become the victim of said test.
    Last edited by Celgress; 08-28-2019 at 12:58 PM.
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  3. #48
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Let's just say that I feel the references to this story on the forum are of the "see what an awful character Gwen is" type, not for character examination.
    Fact is, it's there in the story that was published. It's worth discussing and talking about. And apparently CBR agreed. People have an issue with this being discussed and their main counter is to try and make it about the motivations of the person bringing this up. My motivations might be grand or petty but it's irrelevant when what I am bringing up is true. I mean the issue is there for all to see.

    As it is Spider-Man has a mistaken reputation in some corners for being "apolitical" and trying to correct that goes a long way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    I imagine this is because some users are still very unhappy about the way Marvel and/or Sony would promote their Spider-Man products by trashing MJ. Having Emma Stone hosting SNL and calling MJ a "slut" and all that.
    Part of it is driven by the likes of Dan Slott making a fuss about MJ smoking cigarettes and the dog-whistle slut-shaming that the BND people and Quesada carried out in the period up to Superior...while hearing endlessly about Saint Gwen, and then seeing Emma Gwen's largely shallow version of the ideal girlfriend being held up as a better character despite having no depth.

    It was also driven by the way, by the excessive backlash that Carlie Cooper. More or less Gwen was the Carlie Cooper of her day, except Carlie is less obnoxious. Mostly it's driven by re-reading the comics themselves. And Gwen in the Lee-Romita era is an example of writers and artists presenting a character on the surface as a good person but they have her to do horrible things that nobody calls her out on. Bullying Aunt May out of the books is another example.

    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    People aren't allowed to make mistakes in this day and age, nor apparently are fictional characters lol.
    For someone to be forgiven it needs to be acknowledged, on the part of others, and the part of the character that they did something wrong. If you keep presenting Gwen as a perfect figure, and people decide to re-read the stuff to find out what the fuss is about, and they come across this...best believe that eyebrows are gonna be raised.

  4. #49
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    ....For someone to be forgiven it needs to be acknowledged, on the part of others, and the part of the character that they did something wrong. If you keep presenting Gwen as a perfect figure, and people decide to re-read the stuff to find out what the fuss is about, and they come across this...best believe that eyebrows are gonna be raised.
    Kind of hard to "change" when you get murdered (indirectly) by a crazed supervillain before you have a chance to do so but whatever. Plus, it is debatable Gwen ever committed a "sin" for which to atone in this case.

    As I've said before Peter/MJ shippers should spend their time defaming Felicia she is one who is alive and can threaten the Peter/MJ end game. Oh wait, she is a semi-criminal so she isn't worthy of Spidey, ah I see.
    Last edited by Celgress; 08-28-2019 at 03:15 PM.
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  5. #50
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Part of it is driven by the likes of Dan Slott making a fuss about MJ smoking cigarettes and the dog-whistle slut-shaming that the BND people and Quesada carried out in the period up to Superior...while hearing endlessly about Saint Gwen, and then seeing Emma Gwen's largely shallow version of the ideal girlfriend being held up as a better character despite having no depth.

    It was also driven by the way, by the excessive backlash that Carlie Cooper. More or less Gwen was the Carlie Cooper of her day, except Carlie is less obnoxious. Mostly it's driven by re-reading the comics themselves. And Gwen in the Lee-Romita era is an example of writers and artists presenting a character on the surface as a good person but they have her to do horrible things that nobody calls her out on. Bullying Aunt May out of the books is another example.
    I'm not saying I don't know where it comes from. I absolutely know where it comes from. It comes from about a decade of Marvel and others treating the Peter/MJ ship like they did. OMD was a terrible way to end that relationship, and then they poured salt into the wound with OMIT.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    Kind of hard to "change" when you get murdered (indirectly) by a crazed supervillain before you have a chance to do so but whatever. Plus, it is debatable Gwen ever committed a "sin" for which to atone in this case.

    As I've said before Peter/MJ shippers should spend their time defaming Felicia she is one who is alive and can threaten the Peter/MJ end game. Oh wait, she is a semi-criminal so she isn't worthy of Spidey, ah I see.
    Felicia's real problem is she totally destroys the Peter/Spider-Man balance that is at the core of the title.

    (Also, she wasn't created by Lee, Ditko, or Romita.)

  7. #52
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    Let the shipping wars continue!!!!

  8. #53
    Extraordinary Member Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinroc View Post
    Felicia's real problem is she totally destroys the Peter/Spider-Man balance that is at the core of the title...
    So did MJ under Slott - "I want you but I can't be with you because you're Spider-Man" Boy did that get old quick.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  9. #54
    Really Feeling It! Kevinroc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    So did MJ to under Slott - "I want you but I can't be with you because you're Spider-Man" Boy did that get old quick.
    No disagreement here, lol.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celgress View Post
    So did MJ under Slott - "I want you but I can't be with you because you're Spider-Man" Boy did that get old quick.
    I always felt like that was Slott not copping out.

    If Peter and MJ just get back together, then there was no point in separating them in the first place (which there weren’t because arbitrary rules are arbitrary).

    Slott just decided not to just pretend that OMD didn’t happen and I have to respect him for that.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by PCN24454 View Post
    I always felt like that was Slott not copping out.

    If Peter and MJ just get back together, then there was no point in separating them in the first place (which there weren’t because arbitrary rules are arbitrary).

    Slott just decided not to just pretend that OMD didn’t happen and I have to respect him for that.
    I thought it was Slott repeating himself. Which became tired and cliched. He couldn't think of anything to get readers to care about the new love interests, so he'd drag MJ back in and have her say she and Peter can't be together.

    Doing that once is fine.

    But he didn't do it once.

  12. #57
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Fact is, it's there in the story that was published. It's worth discussing and talking about. And apparently CBR agreed. People have an issue with this being discussed and their main counter is to try and make it about the motivations of the person bringing this up. My motivations might be grand or petty but it's irrelevant when what I am bringing up is true. I mean the issue is there for all to see.


    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    As it is Spider-Man has a mistaken reputation in some corners for being "apolitical" and trying to correct that goes a long way.
    Comics in general have that mistaken reputation.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    For someone to be forgiven it needs to be acknowledged, on the part of others, and the part of the character that they did something wrong. If you keep presenting Gwen as a perfect figure, and people decide to re-read the stuff to find out what the fuss is about, and they come across this...best believe that eyebrows are gonna be raised.
    It really is worth reading the entire Romita era and judging for one's self. The stories speak for themselves, Lee/Romita were good enough writers to see to that. Pretty much the only way 616, alive, original Gwen comes out as any kind of saint in all of that is if you make excuse after excuse for her behavior and attitudes (it was the 1960s, she was sad, Peter pissed her off, Aunt May was a jerk, and so on). The stuff that made her interesting, honestly, made her disposable.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott Taylor View Post
    It really is worth reading the entire Romita era and judging for one's self. The stories speak for themselves, Lee/Romita were good enough writers to see to that. Pretty much the only way 616, alive, original Gwen comes out as any kind of saint in all of that is if you make excuse after excuse for her behavior and attitudes (it was the 1960s, she was sad, Peter pissed her off, Aunt May was a jerk, and so on). The stuff that made her interesting, honestly, made her disposable.
    I am.as hard core MJ as they come, but I do not consider Gwen evil or for that matter a Saint ( the same applies to MJ, Felicia or any other "Parker Woman"). What is crazy about this discussion is there are some pretty disgusting characters in Marvel without a single redeeming factor ( Red Skull, Carnage, Abonomation and Mephisto to name a few) and we are poking holes in a character in 616 Gwen Stacy who died over 40 years ago.

  15. #60
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    What is crazy about this discussion is there are some pretty disgusting characters in Marvel without a single redeeming factor ( Red Skull, Carnage, Abonomation and Mephisto to name a few) and we are poking holes in a character in 616 Gwen Stacy who died over 40 years ago.
    There's a difference between characters who are bad guys, presented as bad guys to us by the writer/artist, seen and called bad guys by characters who are heroes, supporting characters and extras. There's a difference between that and characters who are supposed to be good. When a bad guy acts and does something bad, it fits. When a character who is good does stuff that's out of step with what they are supposed to be and which is never acknowledged and treated as such...then that creates an issue.

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