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  1. #76
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    That's the sticking point right there. Nothing is set in stone, and new creative teams can throw the story in whichever direction they most desire. So definitively saying that Gwen would always hate Spider-Man and nothing else could really grow with her, just seems more like bias than anything else.
    True. I mean yeah, it depends on what writers could do. The main thing to do would be to give Gwen an inner core. If you compare Gwen to MJ, Gerry Conway in his run, when he wrote Mary Jane, he didn't explain her backstory or motivations but what he did was give her an inner core. He put across a sense that MJ had something inside her, a deeper self and so on. I think Gwen needed that.

  2. #77
    Astonishing Member Inversed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    True. I mean yeah, it depends on what writers could do. The main thing to do would be to give Gwen an inner core. If you compare Gwen to MJ, Gerry Conway in his run, when he wrote Mary Jane, he didn't explain her backstory or motivations but what he did was give her an inner core. He put across a sense that MJ had something inside her, a deeper self and so on. I think Gwen needed that.
    Yea, and I do think as other Gwens in other universes and adaptations have shown, they have been able to get good inner cores out of her, no matter how similar or different it may be to her original conceptions, so she has always had that potential to be delved in deeper if newer writers decided to go in that direction.

    I do think early Spider-Man in general had issues regarding the characterization of the female characters, not just Gwen, but Betty, Liz, Aunt May, etc. all had these exaggerated, and even at times mean-spirited portrayals, before eventually growing and becoming more mature throughout the years and through other writers.

    What made MJ the most appealing was she was probably the most positive of all the female characters at the time, and had the most energetic personality, even though it too was slightly concealed in a veil of cynicism at the beginning. And since she didn't get as much attention during this early period compared to other characters, used it as a chance to give her some new focus and perspective.
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  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    Yea, and I do think as other Gwens in other universes and adaptations have shown, they have been able to get good inner cores out of her, no matter how similar or different it may be to her original conceptions, so she has always had that potential to be delved in deeper if newer writers decided to go in that direction.

    I do think early Spider-Man in general had issues regarding the characterization of the female characters, not just Gwen, but Betty, Liz, Aunt May, etc. all had these exaggerated, and even at times mean-spirited portrayals, before eventually growing and becoming more mature throughout the years and through other writers.

    What made MJ the most appealing was she was probably the most positive of all the female characters at the time, and had the most energetic personality, even though it too was slightly concealed in a veil of cynicism at the beginning. And since she didn't get as much attention during this early period compared to other characters, used it as a chance to give her some new focus and perspective.
    You are correct that MJ was always different from the other women ( starting with her first physicsl appearance in ASM 42). But when well written she is a lot more, and most readers like her far more then Marvel. it is interesting to note that despite her being removed from the book by Marvel several times: (Romita, Wolfman, and Slott being examples) that she never lost her popularity with readers ( The newspaper and RYV being examples of this). That is a big difference between her and 616 Gwen, Felicia or anyone else.

  4. #79
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    This notion is nonsense. Gwen was upset about what happened to her father and was blaming Spider-Man, that led her to support a bad guy who she didn’t know was a white supremacist. That doesn't mean she was a white supremacist. It is a silly contention to stir up drama and become a new excuse to bash.
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  5. #80
    Take Me Higher The Negative Zone's Avatar
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    Don't really see how this article stirs up drama. Drama with who exactly? Everyone's just debating the ethics of Gwen's character.

  6. #81
    Radioactive! Spiderfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Negative Zone View Post
    Don't really see how this article stirs up drama. Drama with who exactly? Everyone's just debating the ethics of Gwen's character.
    It's a central part in call out/cancel culture these days, people dig up relics from the past; old tweets, film roles, myspace pics, books, etc. and use those as reasons to hate on and/or bash something or someone (even if/after said individuals had apologized and/or explained said situations wherein they are being called out for). Though since this thread has been sprung I have yet to see any #CancelGwenStacy trending so I assume this article won't fuel much in the way of drama.
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  7. #82
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfang View Post
    It's a central part in call out/cancel culture these days, people dig up relics from the past; old tweets, film roles, myspace pics, books, etc. and use those as reasons to hate on and/or bash something or someone (even if/after said individuals had apologized and/or explained said situations wherein they are being called out for). Though since this thread has been sprung I have yet to see any #CancelGwenStacy trending so I assume this article won't fuel much in the way of drama.
    Don’t see what that has to do with this. Difference between calling out someone in real life and a fictional character.

    And in any case Gwen did not apologise for this. James Gunn she isn’t. Nor for that matter, Jameson.

  8. #83
    Take Me Higher The Negative Zone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfang View Post
    It's a central part in call out/cancel culture these days, people dig up relics from the past; old tweets, film roles, myspace pics, books, etc. and use those as reasons to hate on and/or bash something or someone (even if/after said individuals had apologized and/or explained said situations wherein they are being called out for). Though since this thread has been sprung I have yet to see any #CancelGwenStacy trending so I assume this article won't fuel much in the way of drama.
    Don't think so. The main article is supposed to spotlight political moments in comics and it seems like Jack just wanted to talk about this ignored story of Gwen's life.

  9. #84
    More eldritch than thou Venomous Mask's Avatar
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    I always assumed that Gwen was backing Bullit out of her rage at Spider-Man, not racism. Also, even after Bullit was brought down, she still hated Spider-Man, I think to her dying day in fact. Given her...behavior concerning Norman Osborn, she was clearly not thinking straight in the last year or so of her life. She always struck me overall as a generally good, if often impetuous and hot-headed, individual, and one who was at that time in deep mourning. And she died because of the social circles she kept, so ultimately, she did pay a heavy price for being in the company of rich and powerful men.
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  10. #85
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Don’t see what that has to do with this. Difference between calling out someone in real life and a fictional character.

    And in any case Gwen did not apologise for this. James Gunn she isn’t. Nor for that matter, Jameson.
    Gwen never apologized for berating Aunt May, either, or for being a jerk lots of the time, or for allowing herself to get kidnapped by Norman. She wasn't really an apologizer type.
    Every day is a gift, not a given right.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Don’t see what that has to do with this. Difference between calling out someone in real life and a fictional character.

    And in any case Gwen did not apologise for this. James Gunn she isn’t. Nor for that matter, Jameson.
    And yet you refer to this story as "that time Gwen Stacy allied with a white supremacist".

  12. #87
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    [QUOTE=Scott Taylor;4548461]Gwen never apologized for berating Aunt May, either, or for being a jerk lots of the time, or for allowing herself to get kidnapped by Norman. She wasn't really an apologizer type.[/QUOTE
    I do not condemn Gwen for Bullett or Sins Past. Why? Almost everyone has said or done something stupid ( I include myself). My biggest problem was the way she treated Aunt May. Why? One is respecting one's elders ( that is a lesson I am sure her father taught her). The other is she knew that Aunt May was like a mother to Pete, and disrespecting her was slapping like slapping Pete in the face. The funny thing is her actions proved Aunt May right when it came to wanting Pete to end up with MJ instead of her.

  13. #88
    Loony Scott Taylor's Avatar
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    Gwen's theme song should be "Oh she's hot but a psycho, a little bit psycho ..."
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  14. #89
    Extraordinary Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Pretty sure with all the long-running characters, you'll find an author who wrote something where they came off very badly (Ant-Man punching his wife, Iron Man being a mole, HYDRACap, Spider-Man stabbing his wife in the back via a deal with the devil, what have you). I kinda think there's a point to separate the character from the writing, if that makes any sense; with multiple writers working a medium where shock value, twists, and resets are overused, it seems like a healthy perspective to have.
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  15. #90
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Pretty sure with all the long-running characters, you'll find an author who wrote something where they came off very badly (Ant-Man punching his wife, Iron Man being a mole, HYDRACap, Spider-Man stabbing his wife in the back via a deal with the devil, what have you).
    In the case of two of those (Hank punching Janet, Hydracap), they weren't sold as "good" directions for the character.

    The problem with this is that Gwen isn't given a moment where she apologized, acknowledges, and then condemns with Bullitt. In the case of Hank punching Janet, that entire scene was the culmination of what was already a very emotionally abusive and dysfunctional marriage and that scene was intended as abuse and intended to be condemned. Hydracap for all its weak execution, bad marketing and so on, is a story that was sold on the idea that Cap being Hydra was pretty f--ked up.

    I kinda think there's a point to separate the character from the writing, if that makes any sense; with multiple writers working a medium where shock value, twists, and resets are overused, it seems like a healthy perspective to have.
    In this case this story was written by Stan Lee himself. So it's kind of hard to do that separation.

    If you go to an early version and go to Ditko, you have that vain snob and you will find that the way Lee wrote Gwen in this issue is more consistent to Ditko's Gwen than any other moment in his run.

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