Which characters' best stories are behind them.

[Robanker]

Every time somebody says something like that about a character, a team of talented creators comes around and proves them completely wrong.

Wally West, Wally West, Wally West!

What? Can't blame me for trying.

[Agent Z]

Wally West, Wally West, Wally West!

What? Can't blame me for trying.

I think you're supposed to say it six times while standing in front of a mirror.

[chamber-music]

Kyle Rayner is like Lobo and Gambit at Marvel. All their popularity peaked in the nineties and they have been a bit of a downward turn for a while but could turn it around one day if a writer comes along and does something interesting with them.

As others have said I don't think any characters best stories are behind them because you never know if a writer will come along with a new great idea or direction for a character then revitalizes them.

These are fictional characters and the humanities imagination and creativity is endless.

I think the bigger question is if current publishers are willing to take new creative pitches on established characters and if they are willing to back them.

There are a lot of books that readers and fans look back on as classics but might not even get a chance in today's comic climate.

[SebastianS]

And in certain cases, you don't even need a completely new take on a character. There are things that are true and tested, and they work. In the case of Kyle Rayner, get him to Earth, give him an interesting supporting cast, and go with a light comedy/everyday superhero vibe.

[EsotericFailures]

When I said Titans, I meant both as a team as well as the individual characters. Nightwing, Flash, Donna Troy, etc.

Saying Dick Grayson's best days are behind is too cynical. After Didio tried his best to kill him off permanently with Infinite Crisis, he became Batman and was more prominent in the DCU than ever. Then after all his Titans friends were erased and he got stuck in a boring solo series in the New 52, we got Grayson. The character has come back from worst spots. DC is always going to publish a Dick Grayson comic and I doubt we've seen the last great story from him even if most are more "meh" than good.

Wally however has the issue that he used to headline the Flash series and will almost certainly never do that again after all the effort DC has done into pushing for Barry to be the main Flash. The same goes for every other 90s legacy hero.

[SiegePerilous02]

I am a massive Kyle Rayner fan, and while I wish DC would care about the character a great deal more, I do think that his best stories are way past him but not because the Corps are back, but rather, because Editorial (and writers) do not understand what made the character interesting. To begin with, of all the other GLs (except probably Baz and Jessica), Kyle is the worst character to throw into space adventures: he works (best) on Earth.

He may work best on Earth, but even there I think Hal has him beat in terms of locations, supporting cast and villains that lend themselves to new stories so DC and writers may find it easier to use him if they feel inclined to do a GL on Earth story.

[Jim Kelly]

But there are some cases where, yes, you could do that character--you could even ape the style of the writer and artist who worked on their best stories--but do you want to mess with that?

Everybody has agreed that the Goodwin & Simonson Manhunter should be untouched. This wasn't even their character--they were reviving the Paul Kirk Manhunter for their own special treatment. But what Archie and Walt did is now regarded as so special, that you just don't touch that. Creators can make other clones of Manhunter--and it's not like there's any legal reason why someone couldn't tack on their own story to the Goodwin & Simonson continuity--but we don't want that.

With Kamandi, the Last Boy on Earth, Jack Kirby never finished his story. Other artists and writers came on the book--but I always felt cheated, because I was reading the comic to see how it would all come to an end. And anyone else's version wasn't going to pay off what I was looking for, because it wasn't Kirby. Even if they revive Kamandi--as they have from time to time--it's not going to be Kirby's uncompleted story.

James Robinson has control over Jack Knight. I imagine there could be a TV show or a movie that plays around with that story. But whatever happens, it's not going to be that story that Robinson told and completed in the comics.

Should there be any Watchmen stories beyond what Moore and Gibbons provided? This is a touchy subject. But many people feel you really don't need another Watchmen. The original 12 issue run accomplished everything it needed to do.

I don't want to see any other artist doing a Sugar and Spike story. This was totally a product of Sheldon Mayer's imagination. There have been the occasional attempts at doing something with them--which might be a good thing, in that Mayer's creation deserves to be remembered and passed on to new generations. But I don't want anyone else to touch Plumm and Wilson, anymore than I want anyone else to mess with Good Ol' Charlie Brown.

Maybe what we need to do is establish two different levels for certain characters. At one level is the authentic work--the Conan Doyle Sherlock Holmes stories and only those--and at another level is the adaptive work--everything done with Sherlock Holmes outside of the Conan Doyle stories. In some cases, the authentic level can never be touched, but there will always be adaptive treatments.

[SebastianS]

He may work best on Earth, but even there I think Hal has him beat in terms of locations, supporting cast and villains that lend themselves to new stories so DC and writers may find it easier to use him if they feel inclined to do a GL on Earth story.

I completely disagree. At this point in time, both Hal and Kyle's supporting cast, villains, and city need to be build up from scratch. Sure, Hal has the more "recognizable" city name (maybe? I mean New York beats Coast City in my book) but his supporting cast is as null as Kyle's, and Hal's villains for the last 10 - 15 years have been lackluster. I think that, at this point, both Kyle and Hal are more or less on par when it comes to lack of characterization and build-up, with the difference of Hal having his own title.

[SiegePerilous02]

I completely disagree. At this point in time, both Hal and Kyle's supporting cast, villains, and city need to be build up from scratch. Sure, Hal has the more "recognizable" city name (maybe? I mean New York beats Coast City in my book) but his supporting cast is as null as Kyle's, and Hal's villains for the last 10 - 15 years have been lackluster. I think that, at this point, both Kyle and Hal are more or less on par when it comes to lack of characterization and build-up, with the difference of Hal having his own title.

But that's the key difference, Hal does have his own title and it is borrowing heavily from his Silver age stuff along with introducing new concepts. We had a team up with GA, cameos by Tom Kalmaku and soon a version of Carol Ferris, and an annual that featured his extended family. It's done both Earth based stories and space stories, which may indicate Hal is the more versatile character as far as DC views it. His Earth connections are both more iconic than Kyle's and currently easier to use.

Aside from himself and the infamy of his refrigerated girlfriend, does Kyle have anything from his era that stood the test of time? He has peers in the superhero community, but those relationships can't work due to the damage to the likes of Wally and Donna. And New York isn't exactly a unique setting for a superhero story, even within the DCU. There's less to build up from scratch with Hal than there is with Kyle, Morrison is just using old stuff with ease.

[SebastianS]

I disagree with most of what you are saying, and here is why:

But that's the key difference, Hal does have his own title and it is borrowing heavily from his Silver age stuff along with introducing new concepts.

Really? I am reading GL now and most of it is kinda contrived, high sci-fi concepts with no soul. I don't think any author will follow Grant Morrison on his ideas, and there have been no new ideas since Geoff introduced the rainbow corps.

We had a team-up with GA, cameos by Tom Kalmaku and soon a version of Carol Ferris, and an annual that featured his extended family.

And none of it was more than a brief cameo, a one and done, that was soon enough buried under whatever came next. It did nothing to consolidate these characters as supporting characters. Also, yay! A character with like 50 years of publication has 2 supporting characters...

It's done both Earth-based stories and space stories, which may indicate Hal is the more versatile character as far as DC views it.

Sure, Editorial prefers Hal, but that is not what we are discussing here.

His Earth connections are both more iconic than Kyle's and currently easier to use.

So and so, really. Ollie and Hal? Sure, but Connor and Kyle were great back in the day. Barry and Hal? Sure, but Wally and Kyle were the Flash and the GL. Heck, even Batman and Kyle's dynamic was funnier and much better than Hal and Bruce. Honestly, I don't think Hal's connections are iconic. I don't even think Hal has any Earth connection anymore.

does Kyle have anything from his era that stood the test of time? He has peers in the superhero community, but those relationships can't work due to the damage to the likes of Wally and Donna. And New York isn't exactly a unique setting for a superhero story, even within the DCU. There's less to build up from scratch with Hal than there is with Kyle, Morrison is just using old stuff with ease.

So, a character that spent 10 years in a solo title, but that has spent the last 15 sidelined only has a few interesting features (such as his superhero buddies, Radu, Donna, Wally, Connor, Nero, Effigy, Grayven, and Fatality). That is not a shocker. But any writer could make it work, realistically speaking, with appropriate Editorial support and push. The fact that Morrison (and only him) is using old stuff is just what Morrison is well known for. No other writer for the past 15 years used any of it for Hal, nor do I think it will be followed up by any writer. Also "with ease," is debatable.

But hey, maybe you like Hal as he has been portrayed for the last 15 years or so. Me? Not so much.

[SiegePerilous02]

Really? I am reading GL now and most of it is kinda contrived, high sci-fi concepts with no soul. I don't think any author will follow Grant Morrison on his ideas, and there have been no new ideas since Geoff introduced the rainbow corps..

I don't see how anyone could read #7 and say it has no soul, but different folks, different strokes. The writing works for many, it sells well from what I've heard and gets great reviews. If it's an evergreen seller in trade, it may not matter as much if subsequent writers don't follow up on it, though of course it would be nice.

And none of it was more than a brief cameo, a one and done, that was soon enough buried under whatever came next. It did nothing to consolidate these characters as supporting characters. Also, yay! A character with like 50 years of publication has 2 supporting characters.....

He has more than 2, and 2 is at least more than what Kyle has. Or has and been used recently. Outside of the superhero community, does Kyle just have his mom and dead Alex (was that her name)?

So and so, really. Ollie and Hal? Sure, but Connor and Kyle were great back in the day. Barry and Hal? Sure, but Wally and Kyle were the Flash and the GL. Heck, even Batman and Kyle's dynamic was funnier and much better than Hal and Bruce. Honestly, I don't think Hal's connections are iconic. I don't even think Hal has any Earth connection anymore.

That's all YMMV. For someone who doesn't see the appeal of Connor or Kyle, that doesn't mean much and of course the Batman dynamic is going to have different opinions.
You dismiss the Earth connections as cameos, but that doesn't mean they don't exist just because you don't care for them. To be fair, that goes for me and Kyle's connections. But Kyle doesn't seem to have a supporting character like Linda Park that people are clamoring for to return, which Wally obviously has.

So, a character that spent 10 years in a solo title, but that has spent the last 15 sidelined only has a few interesting features (such as his superhero buddies, Radu, Donna, Wally, Connor, Nero, Effigy, Grayven, and Fatality). That is not a shocker. But any writer could make it work, realistically speaking, with appropriate Editorial support and push. The fact that Morrison (and only him) is using old stuff is just what Morrison is well known for. No other writer for the past 15 years used any of it for Hal, nor do I think it will be followed up by any writer. Also "with ease," is debatable.

But hey, maybe you like Hal as he has been portrayed for the last 15 years or so. Me? Not so much.

There really is no debate for the "with ease," since it's right there on the page the it's doing well critically and in sales, so clearly it works. At least enough for most people. It could be done for some of Kyle's too, if there is interest, but definitely not for Donna and Wally who have considerable problems (of DC's making).

It's not a shocker, but with the damage done to half those characters due to reboots and neglect, it's an uphill battle meant to appeal to an older section of the fanbase that may not be (from DC's view) worth it. Kyle was designed for a status quo where he was the only rookie GL, and that's a status quo with a limited shelf life. Putting him on Earth won't make him stand out too much, because The Green Lanterns are intergalactic police officers, so already choosing to set a story on Earth (where literally every other major superhero is) seems unnecessary. And the other Earth GLs can have stories told on Earth and do well in space as well, so they are more versatile.

Yes, I've liked Hal for the last 15 years and admittedly never saw the appeal of Kyle (or Connor) at all, so we're never really going to agree. But of course nobody on a forum can tell when a creator will come along and revitalize a character, so it could be done for Kyle. I just don't think recapturing a bygone era for Kyle will do it though, it needs to be something outside the box to attract not just the old fanbase but new ones as well. The status quo that made him popular isn't one that applies to the other GLs.

[Aahz]

Kyle Rayner is like Lobo and Gambit at Marvel. All their popularity peaked in the nineties and they have been a bit of a downward turn for a while but could turn it around one day if a writer comes along and does something interesting with them.

Lobo has at least the advantage of not being really dependent on the continuity and what else is going on in the DCU. If some writer has a good idea for a Lobo story, he can probably just do it without much problem, with other characters you might have to put a lot of effort into rebuilding up their setting, support cast and rouges gallery to bring them back to their former glory.

[The Darknight Detective]

No such thing. A good writer can easily revitalize a character or team.

I also believe this is the correct answer, regardless of how low a specific character has fallen in recent times.

[Ra-El]

Jack Knight and Tommy Monaghan.

Their send off was perfect.

[Vampire Savior]

I find I'm not really a big fan of DC characters anymore, so I often look at things without fan blinders on, which a lot of people do not do, I've discovered. When you look at characters like this, it's much easier to see and admit their strengths and weaknesses, and it can be interesting to examine where the characters have gone right and where they are lacking.

Regarding Kyle Rayner and Hal Jordan:
I think it's true that neither character has a worthwhile supporting cast these days. I also sometimes consider how strange it is that after so many decades of publication, these characters' worlds are so empty and undeveloped. Hal Jordan only has two characters that matter to him that are of any value that other GL's aren't nearly as connected to, and they are Star Sapphire and Sinestro. Tom doesn't matter anymore. Ferris Aircraft doesn't matter anymore. Hal Jordan's brother...who cares? Abin Sur? He's played up a lot sometimes, but he really doesn't matter. Sinestro and Star Sapphire are the only factors worth a darn Hal Jordan has over other Green Lantern characters. John and Guy can seamlessly make use of the Guardians, the Corps, Kilowog, and several foes like Qwardians, Krona, Manhunters, and so on. Those aspects of the lore are not intrinsically tied to Hal Jordan in critical ways. This is why he is so interchangeable. He's really not as critical or well connected a character as he may seem due to all his decades of adventures.

However, DC values Hal Jordan more than other Green Lanterns because they like him more, though admittedly not without good reason. He was the first modern day Green Lantern, he's been the protagonist of the franchise for the great majority of the time, there is no character more important than him to the mythology of Green Lantern, and to suddenly present John, Kyle, or whoever as the face of Green Lantern over him would feel somewhat...dishonest from a certain point of view.

Hal Jordan may not have his best stories behind him (although he may), but it wouldn't surprise me if he never reaches the success he had during the Johns years again. He's currently looked at as an embarrassment in outside media, and that hurts him a lot. He has a pretty steep hill to climb, and that is good reason to at least argue that perhaps the face should be changed despite all of Hal Jordan's history. Again, even within his own mythology, he's not all that critical of a character. Not like Kal-El, Bruce Wayne, and Diana are.

What I'm getting as is that I think Kyle Rayner's best days are behind him not because I think Hal Jordan is such an ultimate character (I don't like him, either, and even less than many other GLs), and I personally wouldn't approach the argument from a position like that. I think the Kyle Rayner status quo has come and gone, and a status quo like that with Kyle Rayner will never happen again. DC COULD revitalize Kyle Rayner if they put the talent and resources behind him, but considering all the variables they could do--like creating an all-new GL, or continuing to prop up Hal Jordan, or putting John Stewart in a film--I find that one unlikely.