Which characters' best stories are behind them.

[DrNewGod]

(The Real) Captain Marvel. He is a child's wish-fulfillment character, and DC doesn't do children's comics any more. The subsequent attempts have not fit well.

[Guy_McNichts]

Doomsday.

He has one story. Only one. He killed Superman.

Beyond that he's pigeon-holed.
What else is there to do with him? Fight Superman again? He didn't even kill Clark in a compelling way--they literally punched each other to death.

And as the thing (plot device) that killed Superman, he must therefore only ever be defeated by Superman. So you can pit him against Wonder Woman or Green Lantern or the entire Justice League....but none of them are allowed to beat him, so no one benefits from his continued existence.

Doomsday had one story, and we saw it. Hell, we've seen it regurgitated three or four times with diminishing returns each time.

[Fromper]

Doomsday.

He has one story. Only one. He killed Superman.

Beyond that he's pigeon-holed.
What else is there to do with him? Fight Superman again? He didn't even kill Clark in a compelling way--they literally punched each other to death.

And as the thing (plot device) that killed Superman, he must therefore only ever be defeated by Superman. So you can pit him against Wonder Woman or Green Lantern or the entire Justice League....but none of them are allowed to beat him, so no one benefits from his continued existence.

Doomsday had one story, and we saw it. Hell, we've seen it regurgitated three or four times with diminishing returns each time.

This thread is about characters, not plot devices. Doomsday wasn't even a good plot device.

[SebastianS]

I find I'm not really a big fan of DC characters anymore, so I often look at things without fan blinders on, which a lot of people do not do, I've discovered. When you look at characters like this, it's much easier to see and admit their strengths and weaknesses, and it can be interesting to examine where the characters have gone right and where they are lacking.

Regarding Kyle Rayner and Hal Jordan:
I think it's true that neither character has a worthwhile supporting cast these days. I also sometimes consider how strange it is that after so many decades of publication, these characters' worlds are so empty and undeveloped. Hal Jordan only has two characters that matter to him that are of any value that other GL's aren't nearly as connected to, and they are Star Sapphire and Sinestro. Tom doesn't matter anymore. Ferris Aircraft doesn't matter anymore. Hal Jordan's brother...who cares? Abin Sur? He's played up a lot sometimes, but he really doesn't matter. Sinestro and Star Sapphire are the only factors worth a darn Hal Jordan has over other Green Lantern characters. John and Guy can seamlessly make use of the Guardians, the Corps, Kilowog, and several foes like Qwardians, Krona, Manhunters, and so on. Those aspects of the lore are not intrinsically tied to Hal Jordan in critical ways. This is why he is so interchangeable. He's really not as critical or well connected a character as he may seem due to all his decades of adventures.

However, DC values Hal Jordan more than other Green Lanterns because they like him more, though admittedly not without good reason. He was the first modern day Green Lantern, he's been the protagonist of the franchise for the great majority of the time, there is no character more important than him to the mythology of Green Lantern, and to suddenly present John, Kyle, or whoever as the face of Green Lantern over him would feel somewhat...dishonest from a certain point of view.

Hal Jordan may not have his best stories behind him (although he may), but it wouldn't surprise me if he never reaches the success he had during the Johns years again. He's currently looked at as an embarrassment in outside media, and that hurts him a lot. He has a pretty steep hill to climb, and that is good reason to at least argue that perhaps the face should be changed despite all of Hal Jordan's history. Again, even within his own mythology, he's not all that critical of a character. Not like Kal-El, Bruce Wayne, and Diana are.

What I'm getting as is that I think Kyle Rayner's best days are behind him not because I think Hal Jordan is such an ultimate character (I don't like him, either, and even less than many other GLs), and I personally wouldn't approach the argument from a position like that. I think the Kyle Rayner status quo has come and gone, and a status quo like that with Kyle Rayner will never happen again. DC COULD revitalize Kyle Rayner if they put the talent and resources behind him, but considering all the variables they could do--like creating an all-new GL, or continuing to prop up Hal Jordan, or putting John Stewart in a film--I find that one unlikely.

I mostly agree with you here.

[Dr. Poison]

I'd have to say Wolfman's Titans, Cyborg, Jericho, Raven, & Starfire. It seems that he and other creators simply want to regurgitate their stories over and over.


Cyborg longs to be more human only to become more inhuman.

Jericho and Raven want to be rid of their fathers' influences only to become more close to their fathers.

Starfire desires for whatever world she's calling home to be safe only to have it destroyed or enslaved.

[numberthirty]

Does anybody here believe a character that they actually like has had their best stories behind them?

While I normally agree with the "You Never Can Tell When Something Magical Will Happen..." take that has come up in the thread, there are two examples that come to mind.

- Simon Dark. Just too tied to that creative team. I can't really see anyone doing any better.

- John Constantine. That character is such a victim of "Imprint..." goofiness that I just can't see anything ahead being better than some of the "Classic Coke..." Vertigo runs.

[Masterff]

(The Real) Captain Marvel. He is a child's wish-fulfillment character, and DC doesn't do children's comics any more. The subsequent attempts have not fit well.

Not true.
They have the WONDER COMICS which is for younger readers.

I would say:
Conner Kent....he was very powerful in Johns TT, BUT now it seems that they rather use Jonathan and Kenan, instead of him.
For example as Superman was blind and attacked by the Superman Revenge Squad he was saved by Supergirl,Lex,Kenan,Lana...while they could also have been used Conner.

I dont think that Conner will play such a big role anymore

[Vordan]

Not true.
They have the WONDER COMICS which is for younger readers.

I would say:
Conner Kent....he was very powerful in Johns TT, BUT now it seems that they rather use Jonathan and Kenan, instead of him.
For example as Superman was blind and attacked by the Superman Revenge Squad he was saved by Supergirl,Lex,Kenan,Lana...while they could also have been used Conner.

I dont think that Conner will play such a big role anymore

They couldn’t use Conner because he wasn’t back in continuity yet, and only recently has returned to being back in continuity. Jon has definitely taken the spotlight off Kon, but we’ll see what happens when Kon reunites with the Superfamily.

[Masterff]

They couldn’t use Conner because he wasn’t back in continuity yet, and only recently has returned to being back in continuity. Jon has definitely taken the spotlight off Kon, but we’ll see what happens when Kon reunites with the Superfamily.

They could have brought him back in this storyline.
It would have been a great moment and he would have come back with a big bang.

I mean YJ Comic is nice, but it doesnt feel like in the TT Run when Conner was able to fight against Superboy Prime and saved the Universe etc.

[jsafanforever]

I'm going to have to say Superman.

We've seen him be born, grow up, beat all levels of criminals & super-villains, suffer through loss, get married, have a child, go to the past and future, lose his powers, gain other powers, deal with being an alien, lose his secret identity, rise to the height of his alter ego's profession, lose his job ... Hell, we've already seen him die and come back.

Everything now just seems like a rehash of stuff that has already been done with Supes.

[Vordan]

I'm going to have to say Superman.

We've seen him be born, grow up, beat all levels of criminals & super-villains, suffer through loss, get married, have a child, go to the past and future, lose his powers, gain other powers, deal with being an alien, lose his secret identity, rise to the height of his alter ego's profession, lose his job ... Hell, we've already seen him die and come back.

Everything now just seems like a rehash of stuff that has already been done with Supes.

If your arguement is that we can’t see anything new from these characters, that’s fair but I’d say that’s different from saying the best stories are behind them. Not every rendition of those story beats you listed have been good. All-Star and Death of Superman both deal with Superman’s death, but that certainly didn’t stop All Star from becoming a classic. Zero Year and Year One both deal with Bruce becoming Batman, but Zero Year was still held in pretty high regard. Sometimes writers come along who can do a better version of previous stories.

And really what you’ve listed is pretty much how the superheroes as an ongoing medium work. They are cyclical, retelling variations on the same couple of stories forever.

[iron chimp]

No one ever says "what a great film apocalypse now was. We should make apocalypse now: wrath of kurtz" or "yup Young Adam was a well regarded piece of 20th literature. We should write a sequel Old Adam".

Some comic runs were just so good that they are regarded as literary classics and yet we have to endure follow ups.

Watchmen was done 30 years ago - just respect fact you had a piece of work that could go toe to toe with almost any novels, films etc and leave it as a crown jewel of your publishing.

Hitman is done
Shade is done
Once Gaiman finishes Sandman it's done.

Many many characters havent even had their best stories told yet. Others - they are done. If you have a story to tell just use other characters or invent your own.

[Dr. Ellingham]

Many many characters havent even had their best stories told yet. Others - they are done.

If we're talking about a character designed for a finite story, absolutely - the creator defined the end point, told the story they wanted.

But when we're talking about characters that are published continuously - Superman, Wonder Woman, et al - then we don't know.

[Dr. Ellingham]

Hal Jordan may not have his best stories behind him (although he may), but it wouldn't surprise me if he never reaches the success he had during the Johns years again. He's currently looked at as an embarrassment in outside media, and that hurts him a lot.

Agreed with most of your post, but this part stood out. DC still views Hal as 'Green Lantern', although with an asterisk - Green Lantern is a bit of a buffet at this point. They know that Hal is the mainstay, but they treat the various GL characters as "available on demand" - with Hal and Jessica positioned as the 1-2 punch for all media. But if a writer wants John in the Justice League comic, cool. Want a female GL for an animated feature? Here's Jess. And Hal is the default for a GL-specific story, barring other interest. So far it seems a workable strategy.

[Uncanny Mutie]

I want to say Superman, because despite being the OG and having been around for nine decades (!), I don't think he has many truly CLASSIC stories to begin with that aren't out of continuity/Elseworlds type stories. But the not too long ago ended Tomasi and Jurgens stories were SO GOOD, until you-know-who came along and ruined everything...