Young Justice

[Lukmendes]

I have to say, Lor Zod was the best villain I can recall from all of YJ. You could understand what he was doing. Maybe even feel a bit for him as a twisted take on Superboy without people telling him he didn't have to be what he was designed as. But he so embraced and relished what he thought to be his destiny, became so awful a soul, you (at least, I) couldn't help a little "Yeah MoFo!" when I realized what Metron had done to him.

One example that shows how evil he is, is when he's talking with Tomar-Tu, when he's leaving and talks about Tomar-Tu's father, Lor-Zod says at the end "May you follow in his footsteps", while Tomar-Tu thinks that's a compliment, Lor-Zod is secretly saying "I look forward to killing you too", and before he even starts talking about this, he smiles and is holding a chuckle, that scene makes it clear he's evil and loves it lol.

And yeah, he's the best YJ villain for me, like Light, he's smart, unlike Light, he avoids all of their problems of "Everything's according to keikaku", since he doesn't always succeed (Even before he gets killed), gets his ass kicked, has to improvise, and is actually on-field instead of just staying on the background secretly winning, stuff like that gives him charm, and him having a personality that isn't just "he's evil and pragmatic" prevents him from being boring like the rest of the Light.

While I'll always find his death very cathartic, it does suck we won't see more of him, specially considering that it means we may be back to the Light...

I give Wiseman credit for revisiting famous DC storylines while removing the ick factor. Tera is one example, Arsenal is another. So BB/Tera doesn't have to be doomed in the YJ verse. In the same manner, Santuary doesn't have to be the dumpster fire that Heroes in Crisis was.

Yeah I doubt that if they adapt Sanctuary, they'll make HiC happen again, but I wasn't happy to see a "sanctuary" being talked with the context of mental health lol.

Regardless if season 5 has Sanctuary or not, I just hope that season isn't so focused in mental health, season 4 was heavy-handed about it a few times, I would rather it doesn't get a repeat.

I've read somewhere that Bruce Greenwood isn't really interested in continuing on with the show. If there is a 5 season they will likely recast Batman.

They can always delete Batman from the cartoon to be fair, he's redundant since Dick can be used as the resident ******* lol.

As someone who was around for DC's "troubled teen" Supergirl and Black Mary's very explainable popularity burst. I am only surprised you didn't see this coming.

Can't blame him for hoping YJ wouldn't do Countdown Mary man .

PS: Rule One in the DCU should be: Don't steal from Metron. Ever. Yikes.

Unless you're a White Martian, or a giant bug, then you can steal from him with no consequences .

[DrNewGod]

...Unless you're a White Martian, or a giant bug, then you can steal from him with no consequences .

...or Metron, as a freaky weird science dude, might go to the source of the phenomenon for a solution, and ignore tangential influences.

[Immortal Weapon]

Unless you're a White Martian, or a giant bug, then you can steal from him with no consequences .

Mantis is already in the New Gods custody so he doesn't need to do anything. As for Mal, let's see how long Durla remains a paradise

[TheRay]

Freddy yes. Dudley, no chance. We're far more likely to see Pedro, Eugene and Darla than him.

I mean we have seen him before. It’s not that big of a stretch.

[Lukmendes]

...or Metron, as a freaky weird science dude, might go to the source of the phenomenon for a solution, and ignore tangential influences.

These "tangential influences" are what made the stealing possible to begin with, to the point Mantis was the one who stole the Phantom Zone Projector, though, Metron might not be aware of the last bit.

Mantis is already in the New Gods custody so he doesn't need to do anything. As for Mal, let's see how long Durla remains a paradise

Oh, yeah, good point about Mantis, though I would expect Metron to try something anyways.

It would be funny if the reason why Durlans are so much weaker than Martians is because Metron messed with Malefaak's genes to have weaker offsprings as a way to have revenge lol.

[Frontier]

Mary turning into a villain of her own free will makes for a more interesting story.

Why even make her a villain to begin with? Especially when we only meet her this time.

[Shamrock Holmes]

I'm pretty sure 2005's was 15, I remember an issue mentioning she's 18 and I mentally noted she aged 3 years remarkably quick.

She was.

Part of her personal plot during the "New Krypton" arc (2008-2010) was her turned 16 and going through the process of becoming an adult and choosing a "guild".

In YJ it'll probably be 16, 'cause again, they really like that damn number lol.

Very true.

It's also weird to try to make sense out of her Countdown characterization now, Countdown's last issue was published 14 years and 2 months ago, it's old ****, and not even cool old ****.

Countdown was just the most recent -- and most badly received due to evolving expectations -- time they've done that in the comics. Mary being "about the power" is something that has come up occasionally dating back to the original Fawcett Comics title.

Though it probably would have landed better (for at least some of the audience) if her appearances in the tie-in comics and Invasion hadn't been incidently nixed by Executive Meddling and budget respectively.

[Lukmendes]

Why even make her a villain to begin with? Especially when we only meet her this time.

YJ's classic "You have to know comics" ****, they had Jason die offscreen and heavily implied that brainwashed ninja guy is him resurrected, and it's supposed to be impactful lol.

Same-ish thing for Kara being on the Furies too.

She was.

Part of her personal plot during the "New Krypton" arc (2008-2010) was her turned 16 and going through the process of becoming an adult and choosing a "guild".

I don't remember the guild bit, then again, it's been a while since I read New Krypton.

Countdown was just the most recent -- and most badly received due to evolving expectations -- time they've done that in the comics. Mary being "about the power" is something that has come up occasionally dating back to the original Fawcett Comics title.

Wasn't aware of that, but even if that's a semi consistent trait, YJ shouldn't have adapted the one that is closer to Countdown in spirit, since YJ's "Mary becomes a bitch because she likes power" and Countdown's "Mary becomes evil because she likes being evil" aren't that different, specially since it's not clear if she willingly joined the Furies or not, and with the way she was characterized in YJ, it's very possible it was willing, though on the other hand, fact that Granny was talking with her on her head can indicate it wasn't willing, or it could just be a mix of both, she wasn't really willing, or was only kinda willing, and Granny managed to manipulate her to do so before any "reprogramming".

It's fine to adapt stuff from bad stories, bad stories themselves can have salvageable stuff, problem is, they picked one of the dumber things about Countdown, and while they made it less bad, it was still bad.

Won't be surprised if season 5 has Kyle debut, just so Mary can grab him and use him like a bat lol.

Though it probably would have landed better (for at least some of the audience) if her appearances in the tie-in comics and Invasion hadn't been incidently nixed by Executive Meddling and budget respectively.

Yeah that would've helped, questionable adaptation issues aside, a big reason why I can't care at all about Mary's fall from grace is that, she was just introduced, and had all of her moments being alluded to or talked about, but never shown, so it's not impactful at all, at least to me.

[Frontier]

Countdown was just the most recent -- and most badly received due to evolving expectations -- time they've done that in the comics. Mary being "about the power" is something that has come up occasionally dating back to the original Fawcett Comics title.

Though it probably would have landed better (for at least some of the audience) if her appearances in the tie-in comics and Invasion hadn't been incidently nixed by Executive Meddling and budget respectively.

I didn't know about it dating back that long, but I feel like it probably landed better in the classic comics because we got to see more of Mary as a hero, her personality, and her actually doing good before they went straight into something more complex and dark, which the show didn't really get to.

Having her tie-in comic arc would've helped but it still would probably feel off given her lack of screen-time.

Won't be surprised if season 5 has Kyle debut, just so Mary can grab him and use him like a bat lol.

They never did confirm who the 4th GL on the League was.

[DrNewGod]

I was irked when M'gann helped him, she says she'll show him who he is, and all she does is show all of their moments together? That sounds so, possessive, Conner is his own damn person without her, if she's going to remind him who he is, then make him remember his own moments without her too.

It bothered me less. After all, isn't what all of us regard as who others are bound up in our own perceptions? Yes, we could have gotten some shots of him teaching Brion about motorcycles, or playing with Wolf or whatnot, but - IMO - what she had to work with was her memories, and those of them together were probably the strongest.

[Lukmendes]

They never did confirm who the 4th GL on the League was.

Oh yeah, they did mention the League having 4 Green Lanterns which made me confused at the time... Then again I was also confused at them mentioning two Flashes, and briefly made me wonder if Bart became Flash, but the next episode, in Rocket's arc, confirmed it's Jay.

Maybe the 4th GL is Alan, maybe he came out of retirement to join the League like Jay did (Assuming he's even still alive).

It could be Kyle though, Jessica is also a possibility, but given her age, I don't think YJ would make her join the League right away, she'd probably be a Team member first.

It bothered me less. After all, isn't what all of us regard as who others are bound up in our own perceptions? Yes, we could have gotten some shots of him teaching Brion about motorcycles, or playing with Wolf or whatnot, but - IMO - what she had to work with was her memories, and those of them together were probably the strongest.

The problem is that M'gann can see and understand someone's memories without needing to be there (And the best example of this was back in season 2 when she mind blasted Kaldur'ahm and learned that him joining the Light was his and Dick's plan, and even season 4 still has this with her looking at Orm's clone's memories), so she doesn't have to only show her memories, but also make Conner remember his own, at best, you could say she was only showing her memories to make him remember who he is (Even though that has the logical issue of showing her point of view and not his', so he'd know what she was thinking, but not what he himself was thinking), but afterwards he acts like his mind is back to normal with no loyalty to Zod, that makes it look like she actually restored his mind back to normal, and only focused on making him remember his memories with her.

It would be less weird if the memories were mostly her with him, but still had other moments, but nope, just them together, again, it looks weirdly possessive, and while I can tell that isn't the intention, it's still weird, and it doesn't help that the cartoon likes to let M'gann get away with abuse (Her trying to brainwash Conner at some point before season 2, which he forgives her), manipulation (Anti-Light, which he forgives her), and her and Zatanna making up a fake scenario for Artemis to move on from Wally (Which he's not aware as she didn't tell him, and the cartoon treats that situation as a good thing, and that happened after the Anti-Light **** was revealed), which can make it look like another situation where she's doing questionable stuff again, though this one is tamer than the rest at least, but again, still weird...

[thefinalguy]

Why even make her a villain to begin with? Especially when we only meet her this time.

In all fairness, there was a Shazam family sub-plot that was cut when Invasion went down 6 episodes.

I do think that makes the impact of Mary going evil lesser than what it would've been had we got a season to know her before. Just feels like a plot thread that got brought back up and loses its luster because we barely know anything about them.

The same went for Traci in Zee's arc, had last season explored her self-doubt with her powers the revelation and win over Child would've been a lot more satisfying.

The show just requires you to have a pre-determined knowledge and care for most of its characters which causes them to shoot themselves in the foot.

[Frontier]

In all fairness, there was a Shazam family sub-plot that was cut when Invasion went down 6 episodes.

I do think that makes the impact of Mary going evil lesser than what it would've been had we got a season to know her before. Just feels like a plot thread that got brought back up and loses its luster because we barely know anything about them.

The same went for Traci in Zee's arc, had last season explored her self-doubt with her powers the revelation and win over Child would've been a lot more satisfying.

The show just requires you to have a pre-determined knowledge and care for most of its characters which causes them to shoot themselves in the foot.

Now I'm wondering to myself if they would have made her out to be a bad or selfish hero from the get-go just to justify this storyline.

[Lukmendes]

In all fairness, there was a Shazam family sub-plot that was cut when Invasion went down 6 episodes.

I do think that makes the impact of Mary going evil lesser than what it would've been had we got a season to know her before. Just feels like a plot thread that got brought back up and loses its luster because we barely know anything about them.

The same went for Traci in Zee's arc, had last season explored her self-doubt with her powers the revelation and win over Child would've been a lot more satisfying.

The show just requires you to have a pre-determined knowledge and care for most of its characters which causes them to shoot themselves in the foot.

And it's more questionable for them to have this "YJ expects you to know this" cliché that can actually annoy you if you do know what they're referencing lol.

Mary herself is a case like this, her becoming addicted is pretty close to Countdown in spirit, and if it's eventually revealed she willing joined the Furies while being aware of what that meant, then the only thing that'll be lacking for it to really be Countdown is her using Kyle as a bat, and stuff like that can be considered annoying to Mary fans.

Now I'm wondering to myself if they would have made her out to be a bad or selfish hero from the get-go just to justify this storyline.

Fact that she regrets is so much by season 4 may mean she's at least not bad as Mary, but yeah, if season 4 is any hint, there was at least some bitchiness.

I wonder if we'll ever get an actual flashback showing that, hopefully one that isn't a fucking slideshow...

Also, if she was in season 2, I wonder how she would manage to keep up with Black Beetle, since the only characters who could even keep up with him were Blue Beetle, Green Beetle, and fucking Mongul, well, assuming she was gonna show up in situations where he was around.

[90'sCartoonMan]

So there was a pretty good sense of finality here, one of the better ones this show has done. There was a lot I liked about it.

Maybe they didn't have the budget for a big superhero vs. Kryptonian battle, but I think the smaller one worked better to give us more of the core characters. Again, though, I can't help but think of Wally and wish it was him doing those "yoinks" as Kid Flash rather than Bart. But I still love Bart.

Els vs. Zods! Miss Martian using clever illusions! Rocket returns! Artemis and Nightwing team-up! Really cool moments, although not enough Miss Martian vs. M'comm. The interaction between those two felt less satisfying than any interaction I was anticipating (moreso than any interaction I was expecting from Beast Boy).

That Durla twist was unexpected but it makes total sense. It does have me wondering if the new Lor-Zod is going to become Mon-El, though, growing up on Daxam and all.

I can't say I'm a fan of either Countdown or Heroes in Crisis, but I do appreciate the show tackling all eras of DC history. Still, they spent way too much time on the idea of heroes needing to do something about mental health and Black Canary working on it all season for them to still say they're not doing enough in the finale.

Lovely wedding, great to see the cameos, and M'Gann taking on her Megan form to have an Earth wedding. Between that, Conner's bond with young Jon, and the super pets all sleeping huddled together, it hit all the right notes.

Some interesting seating pairings...Tara and Perdita, Green Arrow and Black Canary (are they back together?), Bart and Eduardo (will the show ever be able to explicitly confirm them?) and Robin and Spoiler. Are Tim and Steph finally an official couple in this universe? I mean, I'm beyond happy to see them together, but it seems like all of Tim's relationship development happens off-screen.

There's plenty of plausible deniability, but I think all the glances in that shot meant couplings. Which would suck because it's unfortunate we see so little of Tim's personal life, but I can see him getting with Steph after Batman Inc broke him and Cassie up. Maybe Bart and Ed aren't confirmed just yet, but he did still give him a super speed kiss last season.

The post-credit scene was a pretty big cliffhanger to leave off on...as Black Mary and Kara Zor-El as Darkseid's latest Furies. Yes, that's right, a whole season of Kryptonian/Phantom Zone buildup, we finally have Kara as an evil Supergirl. I'm actually kind of curious what was the thought process behind taking two very similar female heroes and then emphasizing or debuting them on the show with their more villainous incarnations. Did they just think there was a good story there? Corruption of the innocent? Good girls going bad is hot? Either way having them paired together with Barda at the end makes me think we might see a ful-on Fury rebellion when they and Barda inevitably turn to good, although knowing this show that could take a full season or two to get too.

That's a good question. I guess because the forces of Apokolips have an established female fighting force it makes sense for it to be Mary and Kara (or else it could've been Freddy and Match used for the story), but I give this show way more credit than good girls going bad is hot. Kara is the biggest junior partner we haven't seen yet. Many characters on the show have dipped their toes into evil, similar to how at the end of season one Artemis, M'Gann, and Superboy all ended up being tempted by the bad guys. Then we got Kaldur undercover and working for Black Manta, Jaime struggling with his scarab, Tara as a traitor, and Brion's public execution. I think Mary and Kara will have a similar theme going, but it will play out in a new story. I hope Mary serves as a parallel for Black Adam's corruption and maybe involves Isis too, and Kara has to learn that her Kryptonian heritage is now part of an Earth family.

And, speaking of arguments I wonder if Artemis will find out about the glamour Zee did last season with Wally. Part of me feels like she could know now but kinda hoping Black Mary has Zee confront everything she did in her arc. She wasn't 100% truthful and some non-Zatara drama would be a nice pivot for her story.

I don't think Artemis needs to know since that gave her enough closure, but that would be interesting for Zatanna to face her more questionable actions.

A minor complaint (not with this season, but over all in the series): They have so ably handled a (nearly) unqualified win over a serious threat enemy this season, I wish they had done so for The Light. They've proven that they can come up with equally frightening threats. Do we really need The Light? (even if the answer is "yes," for whatever reason, it was nice to have a break from them for a season, and from Batman).

At this point we definitely still need Vandal Savage, and he uses Klarion often enough, but I don't think the Light is necessary. I only want to see Queen Bee again if someone takes her down.

Considering how much the cartoon waited so damn long to marry Conner with M'gann though, I wonder if this is a point where the Team's original members become less active to the plot, or at least, Conner and M'gann do...

Too bad they can't do a spin-off series so it'd be like having Teen Titans and Titans comic books both coming out. Given his Justice League experience, Kaldur is way too senior to be spending a lot of time with young heroes, and even Dick and Artemis are juggling other responsibilities. With Conner and M'Gann not mentoring the Team? Where does that leave everyone?

With the way they characterized her, it does "make sense" somewhat, problem is... Even if it's believable she's giving in to her addiction, it's pretty bizarre she's listening to some voice in her head enough to seemingly willingly become part of the Furies.

Hell, while the way the comics did was very stupid and makes no sense with previously established stuff, it did basically say "evil feels good", so Mary's change for evil has a reason, a very stupid one, but it's something, her becoming a Fury is another story... And it's also very funny it happened off-screen while the season was going on, even though she was an established character already, I think that's a first for YJ lol.

Mary's not just struggling with withdrawal and addiction, she's also feeling betrayal. That voice in her head is an immensely skilled manipulator who is an expert at breaking down the wills of others. Granny Goodness' experience with corruption can't be understated.