Best and Worst of DC Rebirth

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Marston created the DC version of the Amazons. Flipping the ancient propaganda about the Amazons that Athenians pushed is hardly feminism if it's to replace it with equally as bad depiction of a society.

Except it is because it flips an old, sexist narrative on its head. And it is not an equally bad depiction of society. It was a society that was open to outsiders and preached kindness.

In which widely known cultural element are men depicted as living secluded from all women and thus having created a perfect society ?

And since the beginning of time, men have been portrayed as independent from women ? Now, that's just pure straw-man argument. In most of history's records, men have indeed liked to hold the lion share of the glory and depicted women in an unflattering light, most of the time. But to my knowledge, they also never pretended that society would be better without women in it, at least not prior to the rise of Monotheism and its concept of sin, which was ascribed almost entirely on the woman body.

You know exactly what I'm talking about. For decades in film, literature, etc., men were depicted as superior just by mere fact that they were men. This shows up in countless stories. There are almost too many to name, but they all reinforce the stereotype that men act, while women are. The example of Oscar Wilde's An Ideal Husband is very famous for its literal statement that men are supposed to go out into the world and do great things, while all women can hope for is to support a great man.

Meanwhile, the women who deign to act too independently or stray too far away from culturally accepted norms in literature usually end up "getting what they deserved." That was even written into the Hayes Code, the set of rules that dictated content of films in Hollywood in the 1930 and 1940s. That's why you see a lot of sexually liberated or independent women die in car crashes in old movies.

I also guess all those matriarchal societies which existed and even those who still do -albeit battered by modernity- just never were ? It's pathetically wrongheaded to pretend that our societies, where men and women mingle, with all the terrible acts of the former over the latter, equates a fundamentally sexist society which entirely excludes one half of the human species and paint them as the sole source of all woes and affliction. If you're unable to see it, I don't know what to tell you.

You're making no sense here. Nobody is saying that a co-mingled society is inherently sexist or racist or whatever. However, throughout a large swath of history, society has been sexist and mysoginistic. So, the portrayal of a formerly oppressed group, women, building a functional and great society where men didn't oppress them serves as a paragon of what's possible. Men don't literally have to disappear from the earth for something like Marston's Themiscyra to be possible. They just have to stop oppressing women and getting in womens' way.

Oh really ? Did they or did they not remain largely secluded from "Man's world ? Did they or did they not had a rule forbidding any man on their island for the longest period of their history ? And yes, the New 52 Amazons were brutal and savages. like any warrior culture is ! And they were sexists like any culture which would excludes one half of the population from their land for the sole crime of being born a man would be ! That's the correct way to depict the Amazons. They are not some beacon on a hill. They are a rotten to the core society which refuses to admit that no matter what Heracles and his men did to them, rejecting the other half of Humanity make them just as bad.

As Agent Z pointed out, and as I pointed out, the Amazons of Pre-Flashpoint were always open to outsiders and treated them with kindness. They did exactly that with Steve Trevor and Donna Troy. They accepted outsiders into their society. The only reason they were secluded from the rest of the world was because that was the space given to them by the gods after being brutalized and hurt by evil men. However, that didn't mean they viewed all men as evil. The only portrayal of the Amazons being out and out man-haters is actually the New 52 Amazons, which showed them selling off their male offspring.

And no, not every warrior culture is brutal or savage. Many cultures who were proficient in war throughout history were also examples of great societies that produced philosophers and artists and mathematicians. Athens and Sparta were examples of that. Shouldn't the Amazons, who are supposed to be "Greek" be the same??

Yes, the Greek (and generally the Pagan) Gods and Goddesses are petty and violent and troubled. Do you know why ? Because unlike the Monotheistic figure of God, they are not outside of the Universe. They are born from it, they have flaws and because they have flaws, they have messages to teach us regarding ourselves. They are not some omnipotent entity who is supposedly all Love and yet nuke cities who don't meet His criteria of what a society should be.

All people are born of this universe and exist within it and have flaws. That doesn't mean we get a free pass to be violent rapists. And a lot of the time, there were no repurcussions for that behavior in ancient Greek myths. Zeus and other male gods frequently raped, killed, or tortured women who committed the grave sins of either being too independent or simply refusing their advances. And you can stop attacking monotheistic religions to make your point. Nobody is holding them up as a paragon of equality.

You also conveniently forget that Apollon and Poseidon were punished for plotting against Zeus by being sent as servants to the King of Troy for a year. The mightiest beings serving mortals, to earn a pardon for their crimes.

That does nothing to combat or even address mysoginy or sexism or rape culture. Poseidon and Apollo were punished for going against Zeus, a male diety. They paid no price for the crap they did to countless women.

Yes, Zeus's constant rapes and eloping are terrible today, but in the Ancient World, they served as a way to explain some kinship between cities, rulers and ethnic groups. For instance, when Massalia was founded, Greeks and Gauls started to say that the latter were descendants of Heracles, because they were phihellenistic.

Again, that really doesn't combat or disprove anything I said. It also doesn't have a role in today's society. Zeus was a constant rapist and a lot of ancient Greek myths were aimed at reminding women of their "proper place" in Greek society. That's just the truth.

The Pagans Pantheons are not almighty. They are not all-knowing. They are to be appeased, so one can learn their many lessons. And most importantly, they are part of this world and it means that protecting it and supporting bountiful life on it is pleasing to them. Those are fundamentals elements which are never -or almost never- depicted in Wonder Woman stories, because it's far more important to give all the negative traits associated with God to old Zeus. It's easier to have been berated that the one who's actually the culprit for modern western society's prejudice against women.

Again, the Wonder Woman comics never blame Zeus entirely for all of man's sexism. I have no idea where you're even getting this from. Zeus is just a sexist himself. The comics have always shown that men act independently from gods with their own vices and their own virtues.

That's actually true. But what does she do to confront the root of sexism, misogyny and the likes in today's society when she isn't scapegoating male Greek Gods ?

Uh, plenty. She was freaking ambassador, gave lectures on the topics of peace and love and building a better society, etc. It would really help your argument if you had read any of those stories.

For starter, the Greek Pantheon is just as full of Goddesses doing terrible things to people - or not, depending on the occasion, just like the male Gods can be quite different depending of which stories were are talking.

You mean like turning a girl into a monster as punishment for getting raped? Or Hera tricking a girl who was having an affair with her hisband into basically committing suicide? Again, these bad acts by ancient goddesses also reinforce the idea that human women are objects or that they need to remember their place.

And yes, the Ancient World civilizations, especially around the Mediterranean basin, are hardly example of appeased and equal relationships between the genders. But it wasn't as much the case elsewhere, in the more "barbaric" lands of the Northern and Western and Eastern expanses. And they are not the root of today's prejudices toward women, or people of color, or LGBT+ people. Yet, in comics (and other medias), Pagan Pantheons are almost always depicted in a terrible light, without much nuance or substance, especially when it comes to Gods compared to Goddesses.

And that's also perpetuating prejudices and biased depictions of masculinity and femininity.

Again, it would help your argument if you actually read the comics. Pagan pantheons are not always depicted in a negative light. For example, some of the patron deities of Themyscira in the Wonder Woman comics are actually portrayed in a benevolent light many times. That included Hera and Hermes and Athena. Likewise, the Asgardian deities of Marvel comics are also portrayed in relatively positive light, even though Odin is many times a blowhard. But that's kind of the point. These characters are as flawed as the societies they came from.

[Korath]

Well, listen. You consider Wonder Woman's setting to be great. I see it as utterly toxic and sexist and I've dropped her book (and the character has greatly dropped in my interest, returning to its pre-New 52 level, I utterly don't care about her and her portrayal anywhere, in comics or movies).

I don't see the point in continuing to debate it any longer, I've made my peace with the fact that WW's fans and me won't ever be agreeing on it. Time to move on.

[EmeraldGladiator]

Favorites were
1) Hal Jordan and the Green Lantern Corps: after a lackluster first attempt at writing Green Lantern Vendetti's 2nd time around was infinitely more enjoyable. Loved how it ended with especially the Zod appearances
2) Detective Comics: I loved Tynion's team batman concept with Azrael and Orphan (Cassie)

Stinkers were
1) Justice League was a major disappointment
2) Green Lanterns didn't care for it until the end when they met the original lanterns in the past is when it finally felt like a GL book but by then it was done.

[Daniel22]

I thought a LOT of Rebirth was just plain and boring. I owned and read most titles for most of the era. But by the end, around issue 40 or so for Action and Superman and the Lantern titles, I ended up owning but not reading dozens of issues of Superman, Action Comics, Hal and the Corps, Aquaman, Cyborg, and others. Other titles like Justice League (until Priest), Flash (unfortunately because I really like Williamson), Red Hood (which I should have known, because Lobdell isn't to my taste), Tomasi on Detective, Jurgens on Titans and others I read but remember almost nothing about. I read them out of habit and so I could keep up with the DCU as a whole.

Other books like Suicide Squad, Green Arrow, both Batgirl books and Detective I liked just fine but wouldn't say go out of your way to read them.

I think most of that comes down to writers like Tomasi, Jurgens, Lobdell, Abnett and Venditti not offering what I'm looking for. It all just felt very standard and safe and I didn't feel much emotion or passion coming through.

The only books I would highly recommend would be New Superman, Priest on Deathstroke, Mister Miracle, Batman, Plastic Man by Simone, Justice League Dark, Wonder Twins, Naomi, Batman White Knight.
I'm not sure if all of those would count as Rebirth... Maybe the only ones that strictly fit would be Batman, New Superman and Deathstroke.

[Jackalope89]

I thought a LOT of Rebirth was just plain and boring. I owned and read most titles for most of the era. But by the end, around issue 40 or so for Action and Superman and the Lantern titles, I ended up owning but not reading dozens of issues of Superman, Action Comics, Hal and the Corps, Aquaman, Cyborg, and others. Other titles like Justice League (until Priest), Flash (unfortunately because I really like Williamson), Red Hood (which I should have known, because Lobdell isn't to my taste), Tomasi on Detective, Jurgens on Titans and others I read but remember almost nothing about. I read them out of habit and so I could keep up with the DCU as a whole.

Other books like Suicide Squad, Green Arrow, both Batgirl books and Detective I liked just fine but wouldn't say go out of your way to read them.

I think most of that comes down to writers like Tomasi, Jurgens, Lobdell, Abnett and Venditti not offering what I'm looking for. It all just felt very standard and safe and I didn't feel much emotion or passion coming through.

The only books I would highly recommend would be New Superman, Priest on Deathstroke, Mister Miracle, Batman, Plastic Man by Simone, Justice League Dark, Wonder Twins, Naomi, Batman White Knight.
I'm not sure if all of those would count as Rebirth... Maybe the only ones that strictly fit would be Batman and Deathstroke.

Was about to say, only two of those would actually be Rebirth. New Superman too, I guess.