Is the new 52 a good place to start?

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

They saw widespread discontent with Pre-Flashpoint Superman too. That’s why they rebooted in the first place, DC’s sales were in the toilet.

Except, again, they had to go back to a Pre-Flashpoint Superman to get people interested again. The fanbase wasn't discontent with the very idea of Pre-Flashpoint Superman's status quo. The stories sucked, but people liked the character and his surrounding environment. Not many could say the same for New 52 Superman. The stories still sucked, only now people didn't much care for that iteration of Superman himself.

Lmao New 52 JL sold great and is widely well-regarded. Sorry I don’t see any hate for that run at all. Now the last Pre-Flashpoint JL run? People hated that run. Widely reviled “Dork Age”.

So, you weren't around for the criticism that was lobbed at Johns's run?? Dude, the general consensus was that Johns's run sucked up until Throne of Atlantis and it was only after that that it became worthwhile. People largely criticized Johns's use of Darkseid in the opening arc, his voice for Diana, etc. Of course it still sold well. Its the Justice League written by Geoff Johns, arguably one of the biggest writers in the business even now. That doesn't mean that people didn't have their issues with it.

[Vordan]

People ALWAYS have issues though. There is not a single run that doesn’t have people complaining about it. I’ve seen people complain about Grant Morrison’s JLA. People may have whined about Johns JL but it sold very well, better than the Scott Snyder run that brought Martian Manhunter back and which I love even more than Johns JL. People on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram love Johns JL run. But the run right before Flashpoint with DickBats, Supergirl and all those weird legacy characters you keep talking about as the main attraction of DC? It sold like crap AND people hated it. Johns JL was not a failure and it’s not widely hated at all.

[Dark-Jacket]

I don't think you guys will convince each other, it's quite admitted that New52 gave DC a broken base.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/YMMV/New52

And your comparing things that can't be compared. Pre-Flashpoint is also the post-crisis league and has run from 25 years new 52 less than a decade... you can't compare them to each other.

[Vordan]

Zee and I just disagree on the extent to which the New 52 failed. He views it as a complete failure. I see it as an ambitious partial failure that had some stuff I liked in it. But I think he overestimes the extent that his love for the old DCU is shared with the wider audience. Rebirth’s sales boost was even smaller and shorter lived than the New 52’s after all. That’s not me saying New 52 was better, I actually loved stuff like Superdad. But the numbers show that people don’t really have a huge amount of affection for the pre-Flashpoint set up. Tomasi Superman fell to the low 40k’s. Green Arrow got cancelled even though Percy rebuilt the Post Crisis status quo of Dinah and Ollie. Etc, etc.

Base was absolutely broken though lol, although I like to dip my toes in both ends.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Looking closer and at the trends of how DC operates in its modern era, it came back because when the DCYou failed line-wide, they needed another spark relaunch and that was the opportunity for the older talent in the company who didn't like the new Superman to pitch their ideas and it was accepted. DC saw widespread discontent then, again linewide, and it affected everything to varying degress and it was new pitch time for everyone. Superman got outright replaced back because of guys like Johns and Jurgens whom it was simply turn to get their way, really. That's not a knock on them necessarily, that's just how DC works for better or worse (usually worse). Someone gets their way for one initiative, internal discord and bad direction drops things eventually to the point they need a new relaunch, and someone else gets their idea in. Superman's changes were deeper than a lot of other characters, so they went deeper with the changes the next time, and one of the creators involved deeply hated the prior changes. In the end those are the main factors why the replacement happened, Its not nearly as simple as "New 52 was clearly universally hated by readers and that's why he was the only character in Rebirth outright replaced".

Replacing New52 Superman was a decision that goes back to the production of Convergence before DC-You or crafting Rebirth. Jurgens told the story in many interviews, patting his own back, that what led to the replacement was him pushing to have Jon surviving Convergence and ending up in the main DC Universe. It was then discussed a better way to bring him there, and they settled for what we got few years ago.

Not counting Jurgens' talk to DiDio about Jon being the future!!!! it's obvious that DC and WB (as major decisions aren't taken just by DC) saw in the kid a way to attract young new fans and a potential for animation (a Superfamily cartoon with Jon and Damian was pitched to a network but ended up rejected) and screwed everything to get there. Look no further to what happened to Kon-El to not have him in Jon's way.

Also, back then, Jurgens apparently gained a newfound influence thanks to the now failed Snyderverse:

"And looking at the current state of Superman…

Jurgens gained clout because of Snyder’s movies. Those weren’t necessarily Jurgens’ tastes but they borrowed from him and the Lois/Clark relationship in those is what brought back the marriage"

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2019/04...ddie-berganza/

Back to their thought process... listen to this video, it was asked directly about the replacement to Jurgens: https://youtu.be/PFBSN-8ao4M?t=1m58s

Other interviews I saved that touches the topic:

Dan, this must have been quite a journey for you, following the married, post-Crisis version of Superman through the "Convergence" storyline, his pre-"Rebirth" existence as a secret Superman and his current role now. How long have you known that he might become Superman again?

Dan Jurgens: Quite a while.

Going all the way back to “Convergence,” we knew that Jon was going to survive to make it into the DCU. There were a lot of different ideas about how to do it and what might work best, but we knew that one way or another, we’d have him long term.

After that, we started to pull together the Superman: Lois & Clark series. From the beginning, we knew they’d survive to become the principal versions of the current versions, though the exact methodology had not yet been determined.

But the broad ideas were in place, and it’s been a pleasure to see it work out as well as it has.

https://www.newsarama.com/34245-supe...cs-writer.html

Dan Jurgens: Then when we started working on Convergence, one of the things that we threw at him [DiDio] was this idea that if Lois and Clark had a child, and we had a different ending in mind at that time, but if Lois and Clark had a child, that could be the future.

When I first said, "If we did that, here's what the child would represent, here's this future of DC." We talked about that a little bit, so obviously Jon was born in the Convergence: Superman issue that I wrote and drew, and then later Dan called me up one day and said, "I've always wanted to do a series called Lois and Clark."

We started talking about it, and Dan first said, "What if Jon was older? What if we aged him?" That's where I said, "No, we don't age him. We find out Superman has been here all along." That's where we started talking about the story ideas. That's what Jon came to represent, and this idea that, yes, he represents the future.

http://comicbook.com/dc/2016/07/23/s...means-that-su/

[iron chimp]

As good a place to start for many books, especially the more unusual books and lesser seen characters.

[Sacred Knight]

All interesteing stuff there, LS. I stand corrected based on the the sources which obviously hold weight. While it debunks my theory on exactly what led to the process, it fully supports my argument that New 52 Superman wasn't wholesale rejected by the fans. The decision to replace him didn't come from a rejection, it came from the all-too-common motivation of movie synchronization (of what turned out to be a failed verse), and a specific writer who hated the concept and was utilizing opportunity. I hate the character he spawned the burden it already has and will continue to inflict on Superman's character, but I can't blame a guy for taking an opportunity. But if this was in the works before the books were failing, it just goes to show that the reality is, the New 52 Superman was doing fine and was removed for reasons other than fan rejection. That's a patent falsehood at this point.

[Last Son of Krypton]

All interesteing stuff there, LS. I stand corrected based on the the sources which obviously hold weight. While it debunks my theory on exactly what led to the process, it fully supports my argument that New 52 Superman wasn't wholesale rejected by the fans. The decision to replace him didn't come from a rejection, it came from the all-too-common motivation of movie synchronization (of what turned out to be a failed verse), and a specific writer who hated the concept and was utilizing opportunity. I hate the character he spawned the burden it already has and will continue to inflict on Superman's character, but I can't blame a guy for taking an opportunity. But if this was in the works before the books were failing, it just goes to show that the reality is, the New 52 Superman was doing fine and was removed for reasons other than fan rejection. That's a patent falsehood at this point.

Obviously, if their goal was to address the criticisms toward New52 Superman, they just needed to tweak the character here and there, not replacing him with a Superman from another world. But that wasn't their main goal.

[jb681131]

Obviously, if their goal was to address the criticisms toward New52 Superman, they just needed to tweak the character here and there, not replacing him with a Superman from another world. But that wasn't their main goal.

Lol, twinking was not all that was needed !

[Electricmastro]

No certainly not. For Green Lantern for exemple, it certainly is not. For Superman for another exemple, it certainly is not.

As well as the late-80 post-crisis titles.

[SiegePerilous02]

We should really also drop the "DiDio saw the error of his ways when he realized fans hated the New 52 and that is why Rebirth is better" stuff. Yeah he said that when he was promoting Rebirth and saying it was necessary, but then HiC happened to Wally West and that has his fingerprints all over it.

He'll say whatever he needs to say to promote DC's next big thing. it is literally his main job and what his superiors want him to do. If they force him to reboot again, he'll release a statement on why Rebirth wasn't working.

Lol, twinking was not all that was needed !

Really all they needed to do was change the costume back to the classic suit and do a bit of a time skip and have him be married to Lois again after having split from Diana. That restores the status quo people need, while leaving the New 52 origin story intact as his younger years. Which hits all the same beats as Secret Origin and Johns returning some pre-Crisis elements pre-Flashpoint (the Legion and Krypto are back and established early on, Brainiac comes with Kandor, the broad strokes of Lex's history work, John Corben works for Lois's father and crushes on her, etc). Clark and Diana dating and breaking up and deciding they are much better as friends is considerably less dumb than "Diana used to date a Superman until he blew up and a new one who was older and married moved into the universe, oh wait they are kinda sorta the same person." Diana got a new continuity that re-incorporated pre-Flashpoint stuff into the New 52 framework and got rid of what wasn't working, I really don't see why the same couldn't be done for Superman who had considerably less problematic stuff (or none at all) in his foundation compared to booty pirate Amazons.

I know the kid is (inexplicably) popular, but I think having Lois be pregnant and then we could see them go through the experience of being new parents would have been more interesting than hammering a 10 year old into things just so Damian could have a playmate. Kara and Kon would need to be tweaked, but they are ancillary characters.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

People ALWAYS have issues though. There is not a single run that doesn’t have people complaining about it. I’ve seen people complain about Grant Morrison’s JLA. People may have whined about Johns JL but it sold very well, better than the Scott Snyder run that brought Martian Manhunter back and which I love even more than Johns JL. People on Facebook and Twitter and Instagram love Johns JL run. But the run right before Flashpoint with DickBats, Supergirl and all those weird legacy characters you keep talking about as the main attraction of DC? It sold like crap AND people hated it. Johns JL was not a failure and it’s not widely hated at all.

Well, for one, I never pointed to the immediate Pre-FP League in any specific capacity as a main draw of anything.

But, to that point, I guess the question is this: between Johns and Snyder's runs, which one will be fondly remembered by the fanbase 20 years from now like Morrison's? I hardly see people giving much fanfare to Johns's run now, only a few years since its end. In fact, most of what I see said about it is that it was a better title than most of what the New 52 had to offer, but that's not saying much. In the discussion of great Justice League runs of the past, the New 52 League has largely been forgotten. Trust me, nobody is putting it in the same league as the runs like Morrison's or Giffen and Dematteis's or even Waid's run.

If we're being honest, Johns's New 52 JL run received very mixed reviews.

This blog, for example, does a really good dissection of the opening arc of Johns's Justice League. Here's an excerpt:

Really I'm just not sure who this book was written for. If it's for new readers than why aren't any of the characters (again excepting Cyborg) given more than the barest hint of depth. If it's for the fans then why is the majority of the cast acting out of character. Superman is impulsive and way too untrusting, Wonder Woman comes off as positively bloodthirsty, Green Lantern is mostly just a jerk and Aquaman barely registers as a character beyond affirming "I'm cooler than people think" which is something comic fans already know. The only characters done any real justice (see what I did there) are Batman and Flash. Even Darkseid comes off more as a random alien monster-of-the-week than the formidable, machiavellian villain he is.

Likewise, Stories like Trinity War, the first big crossover of the New 52 era, and Forever Evil were derided for being "over-the-top," having no true ending, or just simply too obsessed with being "epic" to truly tell a good story. For example, comic book critic Jesse Schedeen from IGN had this to say about Trinity War:

"Event comics often fail because they're more concerned with setting up a new status quo and changing the playing field than simply allowing readers to savor the high stakes and epic nature of the conflict at hand. "Trinity War" may well emerge as the new poster child for everything wrong with that approach. In the end, "Trinity War" becomes little more than a stepping stone towards Forever Evil. The result is that Justice League #23 is an almost wholly unfulfilling "finale" issue."

CBR's own Greg Zawisa had this to say about Trinity War:

"there are no true conclusions of any sort...just more shock-for-shock's sake moments and lots of new questions"

Forever Evil received similarly mixed reviews. So, yeah, John's Justice League was not this seminal run that some are trying to make it out to be. It was considered pretty mediocre when it was coming out and only really got decent after Throne of Atlantis.

And to be clear, I'm not saying this to disparage Johns. He's actually one of my favorite writers when he's on his game. However, I think his Justice League was weighed down by a lot of factors out of his control. It also just appeared like he never got on board with the reboot in the first place.

Snyder's run, however, has received much more widespread acclaim and praise than I ever remember the New 52 run getting.

[robotgarden]

I'm not sure if it's the best, but I started to understand DC Comics thanks to New 52. There were many wonderful works. There is only appreciation. And thanks to the division of New 52, it became easier to understand when old works should be read. New 52 was a kind point.

[jb681131]

I'm not sure if it's the best, but I started to understand DC Comics thanks to New 52. There were many wonderful works. There is only appreciation. And thanks to the division of New 52, it became easier to understand when old works should be read. New 52 was a kind point.

Indeed but starting with the New52 is not the best way at all to understand DC Comics.
I don't know what you mean by "wonderfull" workds, but the greatests DC workds (like top 10-15) stories are not in the New52 era (well Batman & Robin by Peter Tomasi might be an exception).
But like I've sayd before, there are still some good read in the New52 - Batman & Robin, Aquaman, Swamp Thing / Animal Man, Shazam!, Batman: Saga of the Owls, Batman the dark knight: Cycle of Violence, ...