Is the new 52 a good place to start?

[Sacred Knight]

I'm not making a claim of majority/minority anything. I can't delve in so far as to get down that nitty gritty, no fan can, so I'm not going to try with blanket statements like that. We just can get a general gist, and in that regard sales are largely negligible between the two versions. I take that over online articles. So it suggests far more that you can make big changes, that post-Crisis-like status quos are NOT mandatory to keep things going for Superman. In the end there will be people who hate certain things and they will be loud about it but that's all it is, that's how we are as fans. Its far more simply about quality of writing, not whether Superman is young or old, not if he's married to Lois, not if he's wearing a classic costume or something a little bit altered, etc. Bringing back the old version entirely doesn't prove the opposite. Its in reality classic specious reasoning. Looking closer and at the trends of how DC operates in its modern era, it came back because when the DCYou failed line-wide, they needed another spark relaunch and that was the opportunity for the older talent in the company who didn't like the new Superman to pitch their ideas and it was accepted. DC saw widespread discontent then, again linewide, and it affected everything to varying degress and it was new pitch time for everyone. Superman got outright replaced back because of guys like Johns and Jurgens whom it was simply turn to get their way, really. That's not a knock on them necessarily, that's just how DC works for better or worse (usually worse). Someone gets their way for one initiative, internal discord and bad direction drops things eventually to the point they need a new relaunch, and someone else gets their idea in. Superman's changes were deeper than a lot of other characters, so they went deeper with the changes the next time, and one of the creators involved deeply hated the prior changes. In the end those are the main factors why the replacement happened, Its not nearly as simple as "New 52 was clearly universally hated by readers and that's why he was the only character in Rebirth outright replaced".

[SiegePerilous02]

Oh no doubt they're not and they likely will. But the New 52 failed because it was such an aggressive reboot that cut ties with almost everything that defined the DCU for decades. Don't take my word for it. Take the word of almost every major site that pointed that out as being a major problem with the New 52. And Superman was a prime example of a character that people looked at as being "ruined" by the reboot.



It was a significant majority of them and, I'm sorry, but those who liked New 52 Superman were definitely in the minority. People were very vocal about their dislike for New 52 Superman.

If it was a significant majority, it wouldn't have done so well at the beginning, had ebbs and flows throughout the era as Sacred Knight said, and they wouldn't have re-printed at least the first arc in a new trade. The people who claimed it ruined Superman were confusing their being loud for being the majority. In fact, the majority likely don't care either way and people will read a Superman book no matter what as long as the writing and direction works for most people and it gets good buzz.

The New 52 as a whole was not well planned, and that lead to the ruination of even the good/great stuff that came along with it, but don't act like it didn't have its ups to go along with its downs just because you didn't like it. They didn't even fully reverse the New 52, they just re-incorporated some pre-Flashpoint stuff into some of it. Aquaman and Shazam are basically just continuations of the New 52, Wonder Woman has a new continuity entirely but is still the daughter of Zeus, they can't seem to make up their minds on what the hell is going on with the Titans and Cyborg, and the Legion seems to be getting rebooted yet again. In fact, pre-Flashpoint Superman had the Legion back in his history but doesn't seem to anymore, so I guess he didn't fully come back either.

If a majority of fans liked New 52 Superman, the whole idea of bringing back Pre-Flashpoint Superman wouldn't have gone anywhere and DC could have just brushed off the detractors as just that.

If the majority of fans were satisfied with the direction of the Super books pre-Flashpoint, the idea of rebooting him never would have gone anywhere either.

Like SK said, it's just how DC and fandom operates. They need to get attention, so they do what they feel they need to do to get it. Post-Crisis Superman (he's a classic, but not the classic) being what they thought they needed lead to his return. He in turn will be replaced if they ever feel the need to shake things up again. Which they likely will, this is a pattern going back to the 80s.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I'm not making a claim of majority/minority anything. I can't delve in so far as to get down that nitty gritty, no fan can, so I'm not going to try with blanket statements like that. We just can get a general gist, and in that regard sales are largely negligible between the two versions. I take that over online articles. So it suggests far more that you can make big changes, that post-Crisis-like status quos are NOT mandatory to keep things going for Superman. In the end there will be people who hate certain things and they will be loud about it but that's all it is, that's how we are as fans. Its far more simply about quality of writing, not whether Superman is young or old, not if he's married to Lois, not if he's wearing a classic costume or something a little bit altered, etc. Bringing back the old version entirely doesn't prove the opposite. Its in reality classic specious reasoning. Looking closer and at the trends of how DC operates in its modern era, it came back because when the DCYou failed line-wide, they needed another spark relaunch and that was the opportunity for the older talent in the company who didn't like the new Superman to pitch their ideas and it was accepted. DC saw widespread discontent then, again linewide, and it affected everything to varying degress and it was new pitch time for everyone. Superman got outright replaced back because of guys like Johns and Jurgens whom it was simply turn to get their way, really. That's not a knock on them necessarily, that's just how DC works for better or worse (usually worse). Someone gets their way for one initiative, internal discord and bad direction drops things eventually to the point they need a new relaunch, and someone else gets their idea in. Superman's changes were deeper than a lot of other characters, so they went deeper with the changes the next time, and one of the creators involved deeply hated the prior changes. In the end those are the main factors why the replacement happened, Its not nearly as simple as "New 52 was clearly universally hated by readers and that's why he was the only character in Rebirth outright replaced".

Dude. The reason Johns and Jurgens "got their turn" was because people were unhappy with the New 52. It didn't just happen in a vacuum. That's disingenuous to dress it up that way. Even Didio said in interviews that he witnessed what could only be described as a general apathy towards the state of the DC Universe because of their removal of so many characters and elements and continuity that the fanbase loved. And Superman wasn't the only example of a New 52 iteration being "replaced." Wonder Woman's entire New 52 run was written off as if it was an illusion or a "lie" and she was reverted to a more Pre-Flashpoint status quo; Zero Year has basically just been forgotten as Batman's origin at thos point and the writers of the Batman books just refer to Year One as its back in canon; Martian Manhunter came back into the League and was made a founding member again; Green Lantern didn't really change at all so they didn't really have to change it back; etc.

So, employing the argument that "Oh no, everyone really did love the New 52. It was only certain creators who didn't like it but everyone else loved it, regardless of all the hate it got" is grasping at straws.

[Sacred Knight]

The reason they got their turn is becasue DCYou failed bigtime and dropped things perilously. That was the catalyst. Despite the poor planning the New 52 since its inception, which no one that I know of denies, it was doing generally okay before then. It didn't sink as fast as you claim, that's revisionist history. I'm not claiming a vacuum, I acknowledged a fall and what caused it. It was DCYou. Its not disingenuous, its what happened.

And my argument isn't that everyone loved the New 52. I'm not going toward the other extreme, I was very clear in that. What I really said is right there within my post and now the quoted text.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

If it was a significant majority, it wouldn't have done so well at the beginning, had ebbs and flows throughout the era as Sacred Knight said, and they wouldn't have re-printed at least the first arc in a new trade.

It did well in the beginning because it had the shiny new feeling of a reboot, but then it quickly sank and didn't really recover.

The people who claimed it ruined Superman were confusing their being loud for being the majority. In fact, the majority likely don't care either way and people will read a Superman book no matter what as long as the writing and direction works for most people and it gets good buzz.

Obviously they were the majority. Because we have Pre-Flashpoint Superman (or at least a Superman very much like Pre-Flashpoint Superman) back.

The New 52 as a whole was not well planned, and that lead to the ruination of even the good/great stuff that came along with it, but don't act like it didn't have its ups to go along with its downs just because you didn't like it.

It had very few ups but very many downs. How many runs from the New 52 were critically lauded?? How many are actually looked at favorably in hindsight??

- Superman: rejected; failed so bad they had to literally kill off New 52 Superman
- Wonder Woman: again, rejected; criticized as misogynistic and sexist and Rucka literally wrote off New 52 Wonder Woman as a "lie"
- Flash: generally regarded as bad, as fans outraged at how DC treated the legacy characters and Flash family
- Justice League: again, regarded as bad; people outraged at the erasure of Cyborg's Titans past and removing Martian Manhunter
- Teen Titans: considered among the worst runs in the team's history and in the history of DC as a publisher; fans outraged at the erasure of the NTT
- Green Arrow: again, considered very very bad; only got good whem Lemire came on, but even that didn't last
- Green Lantern: just a continuation of Johns's run, and that stuff was considered good, but then faced a lot of issues when Johns came off the title
- Aquaman: only title people seem to think benefitted from the New 52

There are so many other examples.

They didn't even fully reverse the New 52, they just re-incorporated some pre-Flashpoint stuff into some of it. Aquaman and Shazam are basically just continuations of the New 52

Well, a) those were the only New 52 runs people actually seemed to enjoy and b) Aquaman wasn't that drastically changed from Pre-Flashpoint. They kind of just gave him his Silver Age origin back (which I think was even there during Brightest Day). And if anything, the current title is bringing him back to the 90s.

Wonder Woman has a new continuity entirely but is still the daughter of Zeus, they can't seem to make up their minds on what the hell is going on with the Titans and Cyborg, and the Legion seems to be getting rebooted yet again.

Then its not New 52 Wonder Woman. And last I heard, Cyborg had his Titans history back.

In fact, pre-Flashpoint Superman had the Legion back in his history but doesn't seem to anymore, so I guess he didn't fully come back either.

He did. But its only being removed now because Bendis wants to reboot the Legion.

If the majority of fans were satisfied with the direction of the Super books pre-Flashpoint, the idea of rebooting him never would have gone anywhere either.

Not saying that Pre-Flashpoint Superman was in great shape. But people liked his status quo better than New 52 Superman. DC changed too much and they came to realize that.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

The reason they got their turn is becasue DCYou failed bigtime and dropped things perilously. That was the catalyst. Despite the poor planning the New 52 since its inception, which no one that I know of denies, it was doing generally okay before then. It didn't sink as fast as you claim, that's revisionist history. I'm not claiming a vacuum, I acknowledged a fall and what caused it. It was DCYou. Its not disingenuous, its what happened.

DCYou failed as bad as it did largely because it exposed several issues with the New 52 DC universe. The whole "story before continuity" motto was really only instituted because that iteration of the DC Universe didn't have a continuity or a history to fall back on. Nobody knew what the heck had happened in this DC Universe, including the writers and editors, and that showed in the final product. It made the DC Universe feel empty and lacking any significant mythology. And a cohesive mythology is kind of what DC and Marvel are known for. Its their product, the thing that sets them apart from other publishers.

People like to read about Spider-Man because, well, he's Spider-Man and has this iconic mythology built up from past stories and adventures that still have some bearing on his current status quo. People want to read about Spider-Man (and Batman and Superman) because they want to be a part of a character whose story is "bigger than them" in a sense.

[Sacred Knight]

I have a hard time buying that. Superman losing his powers and being outed to the world by Lois didn't expose anything wrong with the New 52 Superman in particular; it wouldn't have been a popular decision in any continuity as written. Just like Jim Gordon being Batman or Hal growing out his hair, wearing a trenchcoat and being powered by a glove. And so on. Maybe if better written, but not as they were. "Story over continuity" was just a tagline, the reality is they didn't do anything they're not always doing all the time as it is. It exposed nothing because they play fast and loose all the time with the mythology when it suits them. Regardless whether the lore is five years old or fifteen in-story. They're still doing it, as we speak. Story over continuity is why Jon Kent even exists, for example. If deeply populated continuity really mattered to such a degree, he couldn't have happened like he did and be accepted. Pre-FP Superman's entire population of history is basically ransacked because of such changes. The only thing this current era provides is the illusion of a deep continuity. Its not that deep when so much of it doesn't even work anymore. Unless its just the illusion that's desired, because an illusion is all it is anymore. In which case though I'd argue that's not really a format being exposed, rather the naivete of readers.

But I believe the main problem in the end was just poorly written changes like the above that was not embraced and this time was tangibly felt. IOW, DCYou actually did what some falsely claim the New 52 did originally. Made changes that pretty immediately negatively affected sales. Bad enough that they panicked and boom, new initiative time. Rinse and repeat. And it will repeat.

[SiegePerilous02]

It did well in the beginning because it had the shiny new feeling of a reboot, but then it quickly sank and didn't really recover.

That's how Rebirth got attention too, it was shiny and new. Or re-packaging an old thing in a new way. And it soon got the attention of having a big name like Bendis on the title. If it quickly sank, why did it take five years to reverse and why were things only really bad in the last year? or are you projecting your dissatisfaction on everyone else?

It had very few ups but very many downs. How many runs from teh New 52 were critically lauded?? How many are actually looked at favorably in hindsight??

- Superman: rejected; failed so bad they had to literally kill off New 52 Superman
- Wonder Woman: again, rejected; criticized as misogynistic and sexist and Rucka literally wrote off New 52 Wonder Woman as a "lie"

These are flat out exaggerations. Morrison's run was divisive, but it was not rejected. It wouldn't have lasted five years if it was flat out rejected. And again, why is it getting re-printed if DC wants to kill it and not have anyone read it again?

Wonder Woman's run was critically acclaimed and did well in sales. It was divisive, but not rejected. I say that as someone who hates some of the things Azzarello did, but that doesn't mean everyone did. They even re-printed it as two plus sized essential editions. To say it was outright rejected is really out of touch with the evidence in our faces. People making a stink online doesn't mean everyone hated it. Fans of the New 52 run made a stink about Rucka's Rebirth, but that was well received critically and in sales as well. Ultimately both runs are more or less on equal ground. And they were both followed up by some of the worst runs in the character's history.

Well, a) those were the only New 52 runs people actually seemed to enjoy and b) Aquaman wasn't that drastically changed from Pre-Flashpoint. They kind of just gave him his Silver Age origin back (which I think was even there during Brightest Day). And if anything, the current title is bringing him back to the 90s.

Aquaman was made younger like everyone else, he had never been married to Mera, never lost a child, Manta has his origin and motivations changed, Garth and Tula were never Aqualad and Aquagirl, Vulko was made villainous, he never lost his hand, Orm was a bit different, Topo was made into a fucking kaiju, etc.

Superman, at least in the Morrison run, wasn't any more changed than Arthur was, he was just younger and had a clean slate like everyone else. Anyone who thinks he was drastically unrecognizable need to realize there is material with the character published before 1986 and that he doesn't being and end with John Byrne and a marriage to Lois.

Then its not New 52 Wonder Woman. And last I heard, Cyborg had his Titans history back.

It isn't pre-Flashpoint Wonder Woman either. Because I own the Perez and first Rucka runs, neither of them is compatible with his second. And ideas like Diana being the daughter of Zeus, Steve being part of A.R.G.U.S and Barbara being Diana's friend are carried over from the New 52.
It's possible Cyborg has his Titans history back, but last I heard NTT hadn't been restored.

He did. But its only being removed now because Bendis wants to reboot the Legion.

Why is it ok for Bendis to reboot the Legion but nobody can reboot anything else?
This is just going to create more headaches for the Legion in the long run, same as the New 52 did.

Not saying that Pre-Flashpoint Superman was in great shape. But people liked his status quo better than New 52 Superman. DC changed too much.

If enough liked it to make a difference, they wouldn't have thought rebooting as necessary.
ultimately, Superman's exact status quo doesn't impact sales so much as good stories.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

That's how Rebirth got attention too, it was shiny and new. Or re-packaging an old thing in a new way. And it soon got the attention of having a big name like Bendis on the title. If it quickly sank, why did it take five years to reverse and why were things only really bad in the last year? or are you projecting your dissatisfaction on everyone else?

It wasn't just my disatisfaction. I mean, do you really not remember how everyone on social media was complaining about the state of DC during the New 52? How DC was being so badly mismanaged during the heyday of that era? The constant creative changes? Numerous public spats between editorial and creative teams?

That is something Rebirth has been devoid of, for the most part.

These are flat out exaggerations. Morrison's run was divisive, but it was not rejected. It wouldn't have lasted five years if it was flat out rejected. And again, why is it getting re-printed if DC wants to kill it and not have anyone read it again?

Because DC reprints everything? They've collected runs that were far worse. They collected Lobdell's Teen Titans for crying out loud.

Also, Morrison's run didn't last for five years. The New 52 continuity did. However, in all honesty, five years is really not a long time for a continuity to last.

Wonder Woman's run was critically acclaimed and did well in sales. It was divisive, but not rejected.

It was rejected because, again, it was undone at the first opportunity. However, if we're going to compare it to Rucka's, one of those runs turned the Amazons into violent sex-pirates that killed people at random. The other did not. I mean, seriously? Does it really need to be said why transforming the Amazons into a race of murderers is a bad thing??

Aquaman was made younger like everyone else, he had never been married to Mera, never lost a child, Manta has his origin and motivations changed, Garth and Tula were never Aqualad and Aquagirl, Vulko was made villainous, he never lost his hand, Orm was a bit different, Topo was made into a fucking kaiju, etc.

Actually, Garth was Aqualad (or at least that was something that was added back in after they decided to undo the New 52). Also, he apparently has lost his hand or at that's been referenced in the comics, being restored to continuity with Rebirth. And, lastly, Vulko wasn't really made "villainous" so much as he committed criminal acts out of misguided loyalty to Arthur.

Superman, at least in the Morrison run, wasn't any more changed than Arthur was, he was just younger and had a clean slate like everyone else. Anyone who thinks he was drastically unrecognizable need to realize there is material with the character published before 1986 and that he doesn't being and end with John Byrne and a marriage to Lois.

I think it should be noted that Aquaman was spearheaded by Geoff Johns, who is a writer with very classic sensibilities and a love of continuity. That's something that came through even in his Aquaman, as again, Aquaman retreaded a lot of Silver Age elements. Aquaman maintained a classic aesthetic; was still heir apparent to the throne of Atlantis; was in love and living with Mera, even if they weren't married; still had Topo as an ally; etc.

New 52 Superman, on the other hand, maintained almost nothing from Pre-Flashpoint or the Silver Age or even the Golden Age. He wasn't just not married to Lois, Lois wasn't even a big presence in his books, being bumped in favor of his Wonder Woman romance. On top of that, his aesthetic completely changed; he no longer worked at the Daily Planet; his parents were gone; his most famous stories had never happened; Conner Kent and the extended Super-family were gone; etc.

It isn't pre-Flashpoint Wonder Woman either. Because I own the Perez and first Rucka runs, neither of them is compatible with his second. And ideas like Diana being the daughter of Zeus, Steve being part of A.R.G.U.S and Barbara being Diana's friend are carried over from the New 52.

Actually, the New 52 never really touched on Diana and Barbara's relationship all that much and, if my memory serves, her only appearance in the New 52 painted her as a con-woman who used multiple identities. That's no longer true. Also, Rucka didn't specify Diana's parentage in his Rebirth WW run.

Even if its not Pre-Flashpoint WW, though, its still definitely not New 52 Wonder Woman.

Why is it ok for Bendis to reboot the Legion but nobody can reboot anything else?
This is just going to create more headaches for the Legion in the long run, same as the New 52 did.

Never said it was okay. In fact, I'm not a fan of it.

If enough liked it to make a difference, they wouldn't have thought rebooting as necessary.
ultimately, Superman's exact status quo doesn't impact sales so much as good stories.

You do know that not many creators did think a reboot was necessary, right? It was only a select few (well one person, really) who actually wanted the reboot. In fact, when Paul Levitz was EiC at DC, he actually quashed Didio's attempts at rebooting the universe. It was only after Paul left that Didio was able to actually push the idea through. However, it was obvious from statements from several industry professionals like Alex Ross, Mark Waid, James Robinson, etc. that not many writers or creators actually thought the reboot was necessary or even desirable. Obviously, Geoff Johns was among them as well.

The fan backlash further showed that not many of the fans wanted it either. And, yes, there was a HUGE fan backlash because many fans didn't like it. Pretending as if there wasn't is just living in denial.

[KurtW95]

DC Rebirth I would say is better. Though there are some titles in that period that were good, mainly Geoff Johns titles.

[DCStu]

When I got majorly back into DC I had a lot of catching up to do. So I basically did New 52 and Rebirth at the same time - whilst weaving in the odd old post- crisis classic here and there. I found them all to be distinct enough from each other to not get bogged down in confusing timelines and the like. The fact that I exclusively read/collect trades was a big help.

[NexusTenebrare]

It wasn't just my disatisfaction. I mean, do you really not remember how everyone on social media was complaining about the state of DC during the New 52? How DC was being so badly mismanaged during the heyday of that era? The constant creative changes? Numerous public spats between editorial and creative teams?

That is something Rebirth has been devoid of, for the most part.

'Everyone' on social media were actually a small, but very vocal minority of New52-hating loudmouth complainers who wouldn't let a single opportunity pass them by to whine about anything that happened in the New52. A pathetic bunch that couldn't move past the idea of DC rebooting the comics and changing the status quo. Clearly a group that you belong to as you still can't bring yourself not to crap all over the New52 even now that DC has given you at least the illusion of having your precious pre-Flashpoint continuity back.

And Rebirth isn't getting that much critisicm, because by and large the rest of us aren't that whiney, but Rebirth has just as many flaws as the New52 had.

[boltmonster]

Can we all agree that DC started production of the New 52 halfway through pre-production and became haphazard with an unstable foundation.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

'Everyone' on social media were actually a small, but very vocal minority of New52-hating loudmouth complainers who wouldn't let a single opportunity pass them by to whine about anything that happened in the New52. A pathetic bunch that couldn't move past the idea of DC rebooting the comics and changing the status quo. Clearly a group that you belong to as you still can't bring yourself not to crap all over the New52 even now that DC has given you at least the illusion of having your precious pre-Flashpoint continuity back.

The minute you start with ad hominem attacks, you lose the argument. I don’t attack others on personal grounds. I’d appreciate the same courtesy.

If the New 52 was so great, DC wouldn’t have had to trash it after only 5 years. If the people who didn’t like it were such a small minority, then DC could have just ignored their complaints instead of literally having to rewrite the universe to be closer to Pre-Flashpoint again. If the New 52 was so popular, then literally every site from IGN to Newsarama to Screenrant wouldn’t have come out with multiple articles pointing out all of its flaws. If people actually wanted the reboot, then multiple creators wouldn’t have gone on record a) disparaging the reboot as a basic concept and b) saying how badly managed it was.

I’m sorry the New 52 wasn’t popular but that’s just a fact at this point. It wasn’t.

And it might shock you to know that when the New 52 first came out, I defended it. I told people to give it a chance. I did. It didn’t live up to expectations.

And Rebirth isn't getting that much critisicm, because by and large the rest of us aren't that whiney, but Rebirth has just as many flaws as the New52 had.

Oh I’ve seen New 52 fans complain over the loss of their Superman a lot...which is so chocked full of irony. But the lack of criticism is likely just due to the fact that Rebirth, with all its problems, was just much better than the New 52 and was lauded as such.

[Vordan]

If a majority of fans liked New 52 Superman, the whole idea of bringing back Pre-Flashpoint Superman wouldn't have gone anywhere and DC could have just brushed off the detractors as just that. You can try and make the argument that New 52 Superman was secretly beloved before 2015, but the evidence says otherwise. They literally had to do a miniature "de-boot" to get Superman back to his Pre-Flashpoint status quo.

DC obviously saw widespread discontent with the New 52. Otherwise, we would never have had Rebirth. Though that seems like a lesson that DC's going to have to learn all over again.

They saw widespread discontent with Pre-Flashpoint Superman too. That’s why they rebooted in the first place, DC’s sales were in the toilet.

It did well in the beginning because it had the shiny new feeling of a reboot, but then it quickly sank and didn't really recover.



Obviously they were the majority. Because we have Pre-Flashpoint Superman (or at least a Superman very much like Pre-Flashpoint Superman) back.



It had very few ups but very many downs. How many runs from the New 52 were critically lauded?? How many are actually looked at favorably in hindsight??

- Superman: rejected; failed so bad they had to literally kill off New 52 Superman
- Wonder Woman: again, rejected; criticized as misogynistic and sexist and Rucka literally wrote off New 52 Wonder Woman as a "lie"
- Flash: generally regarded as bad, as fans outraged at how DC treated the legacy characters and Flash family
- Justice League: again, regarded as bad; people outraged at the erasure of Cyborg's Titans past and removing Martian Manhunter
- Teen Titans: considered among the worst runs in the team's history and in the history of DC as a publisher; fans outraged at the erasure of the NTT
- Green Arrow: again, considered very very bad; only got good whem Lemire came on, but even that didn't last
- Green Lantern: just a continuation of Johns's run, and that stuff was considered good, but then faced a lot of issues when Johns came off the title
- Aquaman: only title people seem to think benefitted from the New 52

There are so many other examples.



Well, a) those were the only New 52 runs people actually seemed to enjoy and b) Aquaman wasn't that drastically changed from Pre-Flashpoint. They kind of just gave him his Silver Age origin back (which I think was even there during Brightest Day). And if anything, the current title is bringing him back to the 90s.



Then its not New 52 Wonder Woman. And last I heard, Cyborg had his Titans history back.



He did. But its only being removed now because Bendis wants to reboot the Legion.



Not saying that Pre-Flashpoint Superman was in great shape. But people liked his status quo better than New 52 Superman. DC changed too much and they came to realize that.

Lmao New 52 JL sold great and is widely well-regarded. Sorry I don’t see any hate for that run at all. Now the last Pre-Flashpoint JL run? People hated that run. Widely reviled “Dork Age”.

However I agree with you in regards to Flash and Teen Titans. Both of those were so much worse during the New 52 than Pre-Flashpoint, although Flash has been struggling for a while at that point sales-wise. That’s why they brought Barry back.