Is Sony at fault for MCU Spidey being too reliant on the shared universe?

[Hybrid]

I posted about this in the MU worldbuilding thread, but I thought about it more, expanded upon the initial point, and realized I needed to share this with others and see what they think.

I know the complaints have mounted that Spider-Man's mythos in the MCU wasn't represented nearly as much as it could've been, and relied heavily on the shared MCU over the elements Spidey himself could've brought in. I do like MCU Spider-Man, but I can see where it's coming from.

They favored a "wide" look, not a "deep" one. By that, Spidey often hangs out with other heroes, especially Tony Stark, and appeared in crossovers to high-five the other MCU characters. Many of the plot elements actually owe themselves to different parts of the MCU, like Vulture and Mysterio being updated to have been affected by Stark (the former shut down by Damage Control, the latter a Stark employee). Hell, even aspects such as Shocker's gauntlets originating from Crossbones, and the Elementals originating from outside Spidey's rogues while also being related to the ex-Stark employees. Happy Hogan being a prominent supporting character is especially noteworthy. Uncle Ben was also downplayed outside of the implication he existed in favor of Tony Stark.

In fact, let's look at the aspects of the Spidey mythos that were represented:

Spider-Man (Peter Parker)
Aunt May
Midtown High
Vulture
Shocker
Mysterio
"Prowler"
The Daily Bugle (reimagined as an internet channel)

And that's about it. Many blame Marvel for this, trying to promote Iron Man and the MCU and using Spider-Man as the means to do so. Thing is, I think it's the result of working with Sony, not just Marvel themselves. As the saying goes: Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Marvel didn't own the film rights to Spider-Man, it was just loaned. I'm sure we all know this by now. With that, having to answer to Sony came with huge downsides because they constantly had to please them. Sony ultimately had the final word on what could be in, and what couldn't, and you can just imagine how much that hampers creativity. They couldn't actually make any major worldbuilding elements that hinged heavily on Spidey, since Sony could easily revoke it at any moment (which they did), and they couldn't bring in too many Spidey-related characters in, because that would mean losing more in this case which would have ramifications across the MCU.

In a world where Marvel actually had the film rights to Spidey, they could let it flow much more naturally, bring in more elements of Spidey lore, and maybe even make spin-offs for characters like Miles Morales, Black Cat and so on for Disney+, and just make the Spidey part of the MCU feel more like it's own entity. At the same time, the elements of the Spider-Man lore could impact the wider universe. That is not the case. The truth is they couldn't do any of that, and they were cautious to avoid having too much of what they don't own as part of the universe. They were justified in being weary considering the divorce.

Look at the other MCU sub-settings. Just about all of them were allowed to rely primarily on their main mythos. The shared universe elements were smaller, and used to better the experience rather than intrude. You know what they have in common? Marvel owned their film rights and had no restrictions to deal with. If Marvel had full Spider-Man film rights, we could've had a similar deal.

I think the best look at that this could've been like is Spider-Man PS4. The game is set in a world where the rest of Marvel exists, yet still focuses on Spidey's own mythology, characters, plot elements and villains. All are reimagined and distilled for a new take, but true to the source. It's probably what MCU Spider-Man would've been like if Marvel could afford to make it that way. If they did, they could've had the works like Oscorp, Daily Bugle as a wide news source, Symkaria/Silver Sable International, Sinister Six, more Spider-related heroes, more Spidey villains, and who could impact the wider world, more Spidey supporting characters both in the Spider-Man movies and elsewhere... more everything really.

I mean, I think Michelle came about because Sony wouldn't let them use Mary Jane Watson. What does that say? In the end, I can't fully blame Marvel for the lack of Spider-Man's own mythology in the MCU. It would be dumb to integrate them too heavily, when they don't even own it, and couldn't control it. Imagine how bad it would've been if they set up Norman Osborn as an MCU-wide villain as he was rumored to be, only for Sony to pull the plug? Yeah, pretty bad.

Those are my thoughts anyways. If you have anything to add, feel free to do so. Let me know what you think.

[Jman27]

I do not know but I highly doubt it seems like Sony allowed Marvel to use whoever they want. That's why they used villains like vulture and mysterio cause they didn't want to do what was already done

[WebSlingWonder]

Yikes, looking at that list of actual Spider-Mythos elements in the MCU movies makes me cringe just a bit.

[Hybrid]

I do not know but I highly doubt it seems like Sony allowed Marvel to use whoever they want. That's why they used villains like vulture and mysterio cause they didn't want to do what was already done

Feige definitely had a level of creative freedom, but that was still in a restricted environment. As I said, they had to be careful with how much Spidey elements and characters they put in, as well as how important they were overall. Sony could, and ultimately did, yank the rights away from them and there's no doubt Feige accounted for that fact.

[AlexCampy89]

Sony and Marvel didn't part ways due to creative differences. I personally doubt that Kevin Feige would have allowed any major Sony meddling in the process of making Spider-Man movies. And Sony was fine that way as TASM 2 failed to meet expectations.


I also believe that Marvel Studios never wanted to make a "real" solo Spidey movie. It was their intention since the beginning to have Spider-Man being a proactive part of a living universe in which he could interact with other heroes. Proof of this is that Sony was fine with the renewal of the deal under same conditions.


Had Marvel held the full rights of the Spider-Man franchise since the beginning, nothing would have changed as the creative side of things was 100% Marvel doing. Sony only proposed to make Venom part of the MCU and it was denied.

[Dangerous]

I do not know but I highly doubt it seems like Sony allowed Marvel to use whoever they want. That's why they used villains like vulture and mysterio cause they didn't want to do what was already done

This guy https://www.youtube.com/user/spiderman2o29?app=desktop
Appeared as an extra in all five of the Raimi/TASM films. He claims the reason we got these weird mix n match Spidey supporting characters in the MCU was because MS purposefully created them to be totally different from the pre established versions to avoid paying more / negotiating further with Sony to use the classic supporting cast.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

We don't have access to the actual script details and breakdowns. How things went in multiple drafts, the back-and-forth changes and so on. So we don't know definitively whether Spider-Man being an imbecile in the MCU is down to Sony or Disney.

Remember that Amazing Spider-Man was made in 2014. Captain America Civil War arrived in 2016. That's a ridiculous short-time. The gap between Raimi's Spider-Man 3 (2007) and Amazing I (2012) is five years. Gap between Batman and Robin (1999) and Chris Nolan's Batman Begins (2005), also five years.

So Spider-Man MCU had a shorter lead-time in pre-production than Raimi's films did, than Marc Webb's films did. Also shorter than many MCU movies did. Spider-Man has appeared in a movie-a-year since CIVIL WAR (2016). You had Homecoming (2017), then Infinity War (2018), and now this year you have two.

Spider-Man's arrival in the MCU, the casting of the actors (Holland, Tomei) happened fairly quickly. So I don't think sony's producers, writers and others really thought things through on stuff like world building and overall implications. The idea was make a movie people will like, avoid reminding them of stuff from the previous movies and really go wild in making the MCU work for Sony, rather than doing an adaptation of Spider-Man that does well. End result of that short-term short-sighted thinking was Spider-Man becoming an Iron Man sub-franchise. If they had done some course-correction about this, things might have been better, but instead they doubled, then tripled down on that.

Now MCU Spider-Man has an actor who's primarily a character actor who plays of established types and other comic foils, and not be his own lead. So there's not much room to evolve Tom Holland's Spider-Man. He's not a Spider-Man you want to have around when he goes to college and beyond because they didn't cast an actor with that room for growth.

[WebSlingWonder]

This guy https://www.youtube.com/user/spiderman2o29?app=desktop
Appeared as an extra in all five of the Raimi/TASM films. He claims the reason we got these weird mix n match Spidey supporting characters in the MCU was because MS purposefully created them to be totally different from the pre established versions to avoid paying more / negotiating further with Sony to use the classic supporting cast.

...how would an extra in the Raimi and TASM films have inside knowledge of the MCU Spider-Man films? That doesn't even sound right to me.

[Dangerous]

...how would an extra in the Raimi and TASM films have inside knowledge of the MCU Spider-Man films? That doesn't even sound right to me.

He claims to be a ‘retired’ industry insider of the past 20 years. His argument sounds legit to me, I don’t know why anyone would want to automatically shoot it down, not without a counter argument?

[WebSlingWonder]

He claims to be a ‘retired’ industry insider of the past 20 years. His argument sounds legit to me, I don’t know why anyone would want to automatically shoot it down, not without a counter argument?

I mean, he worked with Sony on the Raimi and TASM movies, right? Was he an extra on the MCU movies as well? If not, then he logistically wouldn't know what's happening on the inside.

Also, I have a hard time believing most people on the Internet as everyone's trying to make it big with their big sensational story...that almost always is debunked.