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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RD155 View Post
    I havenít read marvel 1000 but I find it weird that JMS would say that was his biggest regret. Not doubting you or anything and I agree that the story was bad but the dude literally wanted his name off of OMD before it was even released. Literally had a gun to his head to write that story. What an awful situation for a writer to be in.....

    I donít think Iíve ever seen a single person say they enjoyed or even remotely liked on any level OMD.
    JMS is willing to own that Sins' Past was his idea, and that he is responsible for that. So that's on him. Having said that, I think Marvel Editorial, and Quesada in particular should have blocked that.

    OMD wasn't his idea or story. Apparently Quesada came to him with the story, including Mephisto and everything. He agreed to do the story out of friendship to Quesada even if he disagreed with everything.

    I was re-reading JMS' run the past week from beginning to end (i.e. Coming Home to Back in Black) and the remarkable thing is that until Sins' Past there wasn't a single bad issue in that run. 38 issues of solid consistent work from Coming Home to The Book of Ezekiel, which is the entirety of his collaboration with JRJR. But Sins' Past was a bad story that stretched for 6 issues and it did tarnish his run. There are excellent stuff later with the New Avengers tie-in fight with Hydra being an underrated gem, and probably the best showing of Spider-Man with the Avengers and of course the legendary Civil War tie-in with Captain America giving his "you move" speech but it was pretty uneven until Back in Black his late-game masterpiece.

    You know it's funny, JMS said later that initially he wanted Aunt May getting shot to lead directly to OMD and not do the coma thing since the drama of the moment would be curtailed if you stretched it out and be counter to the desperation you need to cultivate to take Peter there...but Quesada wanted a delay and that led to Back in Black. And I think Back in Black is basically JMS venting in frustrating at the totally unsatisfactory manner he has to end his run. It also brings in a lot of themes on how JMS saw Peter and his evolution as a character to a head.

  2. #17
    iMan 42s
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    One More Day is the epitome of bad Spider-man. For all we talk about bad Spider-man comics, none really compare to how utterly destructive to continuity it was, and how utterly incompetent it was at character and story. It's made even worse that it's effects are still felt today over a decade+ later, and to that end it's follow-ups are just as bad if not worse because they doubled down on it. It's like a sinking ship they tried to fix by making an even bigger hole.

    Now Spider-man still does fine in sales I will not deny that, but OMD is a critical disaster/failure. It's stained the franchise and fanbase in ways I've never thought possible. It very much is the elephant in the room anytime Peter and a love interest (mostly Mary Jane) are brought up. Amusingly if they'd have just waited until Secret Invasion to do it, they could've annulled everything with Skrulls. It would've been crap but it would've been less insulting.
    -----------------------------------
    For anyone that needs to know why OMD is awful please search the internet for Linkara' s video's specifically his One more day review or his One more day Analysis.

  3. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    JMS is willing to own that Sins' Past was his idea, and that he is responsible for that. So that's on him. Having said that, I think Marvel Editorial, and Quesada in particular should have blocked that.

    OMD wasn't his idea or story. Apparently Quesada came to him with the story, including Mephisto and everything. He agreed to do the story out of friendship to Quesada even if he disagreed with everything.

    I was re-reading JMS' run the past week from beginning to end (i.e. Coming Home to Back in Black) and the remarkable thing is that until Sins' Past there wasn't a single bad issue in that run. 38 issues of solid consistent work from Coming Home to The Book of Ezekiel, which is the entirety of his collaboration with JRJR. But Sins' Past was a bad story that stretched for 6 issues and it did tarnish his run. There are excellent stuff later with the New Avengers tie-in fight with Hydra being an underrated gem, and probably the best showing of Spider-Man with the Avengers and of course the legendary Civil War tie-in with Captain America giving his "you move" speech but it was pretty uneven until Back in Black his late-game masterpiece.

    You know it's funny, JMS said later that initially he wanted Aunt May getting shot to lead directly to OMD and not do the coma thing since the drama of the moment would be curtailed if you stretched it out and be counter to the desperation you need to cultivate to take Peter there...but Quesada wanted a delay and that led to Back in Black. And I think Back in Black is basically JMS venting in frustrating at the totally unsatisfactory manner he has to end his run. It also brings in a lot of themes on how JMS saw Peter and his evolution as a character to a head.
    If JMS left same time as JRJR, that was the time to go and JMS run isn't tainted by Sins Past and OMD. Two wretched stories.

    OMD's my answer

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  5. #20
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Batman Begins 2005 View Post
    If JMS left same time as JRJR, that was the time to go and JMS run isn't tainted by Sins Past and OMD. Two wretched stories.

    OMD's my answer
    I happen to think Back in Black and some of the other issues interim outweighs the bad. But that's me.

  6. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I happen to think Back in Black and some of the other issues interim outweighs the bad. But that's me.
    I liked THAT scene between Spidey and Wolverine, Captain America's famous speech in Civil War TASM tie-in and Back in Black. It lacked the consistency and all-time stories JMS/JRJR brought in Coming Home, The Conversation and Doomed Affairs.

  7. #22
    Brandy and Coke DT Winslow's Avatar
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    JMS was on board with One More Day. We know this from numerous interviews with him, Quesada, and even Mark Waid chipped in recently.

    Where he disagreed was the ending. JMS wanted to roll Spider-Man back to 1972 and undoing Gwenís death and all sorts of other things. That was a spicier meatball than a quick retcon to bring Harry back.

    I know the narrative that makes Editorial the villain and JMS the unwitting victim is much more palatable to audiences, but the fact is JMS was on board with the story from nearly the beginning of his run.

  8. #23
    Fantastic Member RD155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    JMS is willing to own that Sins' Past was his idea, and that he is responsible for that. So that's on him. Having said that, I think Marvel Editorial, and Quesada in particular should have blocked that.

    OMD wasn't his idea or story. Apparently Quesada came to him with the story, including Mephisto and everything. He agreed to do the story out of friendship to Quesada even if he disagreed with everything.

    I was re-reading JMS' run the past week from beginning to end (i.e. Coming Home to Back in Black) and the remarkable thing is that until Sins' Past there wasn't a single bad issue in that run. 38 issues of solid consistent work from Coming Home to The Book of Ezekiel, which is the entirety of his collaboration with JRJR. But Sins' Past was a bad story that stretched for 6 issues and it did tarnish his run. There are excellent stuff later with the New Avengers tie-in fight with Hydra being an underrated gem, and probably the best showing of Spider-Man with the Avengers and of course the legendary Civil War tie-in with Captain America giving his "you move" speech but it was pretty uneven until Back in Black his late-game masterpiece.

    You know it's funny, JMS said later that initially he wanted Aunt May getting shot to lead directly to OMD and not do the coma thing since the drama of the moment would be curtailed if you stretched it out and be counter to the desperation you need to cultivate to take Peter there...but Quesada wanted a delay and that led to Back in Black. And I think Back in Black is basically JMS venting in frustrating at the totally unsatisfactory manner he has to end his run. It also brings in a lot of themes on how JMS saw Peter and his evolution as a character to a head.
    Makes sense. One mistake was his choice and the other was forced on him. So I get what youíre saying. Also In regards to what you were saying about JMS run, Itís weird for me. At the time I thought the run was average...the reliance on all this magic and totem stuff and so on to explain Spider-Manís just never seemed to fit with me. However, JMS run on the title is one I believe gets much better when you look back on it especially considering just what came after he was gone. He wrote a fantastic marriage and you could tell he was a huge supporter of it. I donít think JMS ever got the credit he deserved at the time and was probably a classic example of not realizing what you have until itís gone.

  9. #24
    Incredible Member Dr. Skeleton's Avatar
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    Clone Saga. To make people believe that the Spidey we've been reading since the mid-70's was an imposter was bad comic writing at it's worst. To make it much worse, making Spidey fall victim to the grim n gritty craze in the 90's prior to the storyline having us believe Peter always had a dark side to him waiting to come out due to his Aunt May falling gravely ill again as it's always been his achillie's heel but now got much worse. Then for the "revelation" that Peter was the clone all this time and not even know about it was the great insult for comic fans. To make things even more worse, while trying to beat Ben Reilly to a bloody mess after the revelation, Mary Jane pregnant at the time tries to stop the fight,...then Peter smacks her real hard across the room having her crash into some machinery. I never picked up another Spidey book again and I'm very surprised alot of people gave all this a free pass thus, Ben Reilly gaining new found popularity. I just don't get it.

  10. #25

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    Sins Past had some good moments, but a premise that was pretty much unworkable (Peter Parker encounters the children of Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn, who appear to be adults due to medical disorder.) They're said to have a variation of progeria, which is messed up as progeria is a real disease and those who have it rarely live past thirteen. It has the advantage of lasting a total of six issues, ten if you include Sins Remembered.

    One More Day had a defensible purpose, as they wanted a particular status quo change in a particular way, and some good moments, but it got to the change in a flawed way (The revelation that Peter & MJ had a rare once in a millennium in the entire universe love undercuts the other pairings in the Marvel Universe.)

    The Clone Saga lasted for 100+ issues, and took over the books for two years. There were some specific moments more WTF than anything in Sins Past and One More Day, including Peter Parker siding with the Jackal to commit Genocide. I'll go with that as the worst of the bunch.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DT Winslow View Post
    JMS was on board with One More Day. We know this from numerous interviews with him, Quesada, and even Mark Waid chipped in recently.
    When did Mark Waid chip in?

    JMS made it clear that he did OMD as a favor-to-a-friend to Quesada and that the entire concept was EIC's and not his.

    "Often times when you care a lot about something, you can disagree strenuously. Personally, I was perfectly happy keeping them married; I didnít think Mephisto should be used in that fashion, and I didnít like the idea of erasing everyoneís memory. Whenever you bring magic into a story you have to be really rigorous about the rest of it. And a lot of logical questions to my mind were not being addressed. Having said that, itís a complicated universe and it is Joeís purview. Yes, we disagreed strenuously, and some of it leaked out. I take responsibility for that, but the reality is that Joe I consider to be a friend, and anyone who wants to say a bad word about Joe has to go through me first."
    ó J. Michael Straczynski (https://www.amc.com/talk/2008/05/masters-of-scif-1)

    It definitely seems like the concept of OMD was something Quesada (no writer) borrowed from Superman 2000 (https://sites.google.com/site/deepsp...-2000-proposal) which was co-written by Waid, Morrison, Millar. Grant Morrison in interviews implied that Waid was more keen on ending superhero marriages than he was. So I think Waid was the secret architect of the project.

    Where he disagreed was the ending. JMS wanted to roll Spider-Man back to 1972 and undoing Gwenís death and all sorts of other things. That was a spicier meatball than a quick retcon to bring Harry back.
    Not according to how JMS wanted to do it. JMS wanted to alter events so that Gwen and Harry survived, but most of the events in Spider-Man continuity between then and now happened. He said that he was in the middle of the working on the timeline didn't get far when it went public and caused a ruckus.

    Personally, I think if Gwen came back then OMD would have gone better. For one thing the Lee-Romita era is inherently charismatic as a setting, whereas the Bronze Age from Wein-Wolfman-O'Neill era (which is what BND amounts to) isn't charismatic in the least.

    I know the narrative that makes Editorial the villain and JMS the unwitting victim is much more palatable to audiences, but the fact is JMS was on board with the story from nearly the beginning of his run.
    OMD wasn't put together until 2004-2005. By which point JMS was there for 4 years.

    And it's pretty obvious JMS was never on board with it, since there's no foreshadowing or buildup to OMD in his pages. I have read his run from beginning to end and there's no sense anywhere that this is where it was leading up to. BACK IN BLACK is JMS' own finale of his run.

  12. #27
    Brandy and Coke DT Winslow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    When did Mark Waid chip in?

    JMS made it clear that he did OMD as a favor-to-a-friend to Quesada and that the entire concept was EIC's and not his.

    "Often times when you care a lot about something, you can disagree strenuously. Personally, I was perfectly happy keeping them married; I didnít think Mephisto should be used in that fashion, and I didnít like the idea of erasing everyoneís memory. Whenever you bring magic into a story you have to be really rigorous about the rest of it. And a lot of logical questions to my mind were not being addressed. Having said that, itís a complicated universe and it is Joeís purview. Yes, we disagreed strenuously, and some of it leaked out. I take responsibility for that, but the reality is that Joe I consider to be a friend, and anyone who wants to say a bad word about Joe has to go through me first."
    ó J. Michael Straczynski (https://www.amc.com/talk/2008/05/masters-of-scif-1)

    It definitely seems like the concept of OMD was something Quesada (no writer) borrowed from Superman 2000 (https://sites.google.com/site/deepsp...-2000-proposal) which was co-written by Waid, Morrison, Millar. Grant Morrison in interviews implied that Waid was more keen on ending superhero marriages than he was. So I think Waid was the secret architect of the project.



    Not according to how JMS wanted to do it. JMS wanted to alter events so that Gwen and Harry survived, but most of the events in Spider-Man continuity between then and now happened. He said that he was in the middle of the working on the timeline didn't get far when it went public and caused a ruckus.

    Personally, I think if Gwen came back then OMD would have gone better. For one thing the Lee-Romita era is inherently charismatic as a setting, whereas the Bronze Age from Wein-Wolfman-O'Neill era (which is what BND amounts to) isn't charismatic in the least.



    OMD wasn't put together until 2004-2005. By which point JMS was there for 4 years.

    And it's pretty obvious JMS was never on board with it, since there's no foreshadowing or buildup to OMD in his pages. I have read his run from beginning to end and there's no sense anywhere that this is where it was leading up to. BACK IN BLACK is JMS' own finale of his run.
    Iím sorry, man. Youíre right.

  13. #28
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    JMS is hardly ever interviewed in depth about his run. But recently he did an AMA to promote his autobiography (which I read and man it's pretty depressing what he went through as a kid to get where he is now, and you can certainly see some of his themes in his Spider-Man run come from a personal place). In that Reddit AMA he said some stuff about his run:

    Torque-A 7 points∑ 24 days ago
    Was One More Day an editorial mandate, or was it a deliberate choice to have Peter revert back to the status quo of the old Spider-Man books?

    JMichaelStraczynski AMA Author 14 points 24 days ago
    It's a matter of historical record that Marvel wanted to unmarry Peter (but without the political weight of a divorce) and the book was commissioned by Editorial to achieve that. I had come onto the book to reunite the two, and I loved writing them as a married couple, would've been happy to continue doing that forever.
    https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comme...d_were_having/
    Another editorial inspired thing was "The Other". If you scroll down (or Ctrl+F and search for "editorial") he says that "The Other" and reviving Morlun was an editorial suggestion. Which makes sense when you consider how "The Other" was this multi-part crossover across Spider-Man titles with different hands, and the main pay-off, Peter getting organic webbing was off-loaded to Jenkins in the satellite books.

  14. #29
    Fantastic Member RD155's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Mets View Post
    Sins Past had some good moments, but a premise that was pretty much unworkable (Peter Parker encounters the children of Gwen Stacy and Norman Osborn, who appear to be adults due to medical disorder.) They're said to have a variation of progeria, which is messed up as progeria is a real disease and those who have it rarely live past thirteen. It has the advantage of lasting a total of six issues, ten if you include Sins Remembered.

    One More Day had a defensible purpose, as they wanted a particular status quo change in a particular way, and some good moments, but it got to the change in a flawed way (The revelation that Peter & MJ had a rare once in a millennium in the entire universe love undercuts the other pairings in the Marvel Universe.)

    The Clone Saga lasted for 100+ issues, and took over the books for two years. There were some specific moments more WTF than anything in Sins Past and One More Day, including Peter Parker siding with the Jackal to commit Genocide. I'll go with that as the worst of the bunch.
    One More Day? Good moments? Granted I know to each their own and also that not everyone likes a married Spider-Man. However what good moments were in OMD? I think that might be the first time Iíve heard some mention good moments and OMD in the same sentence so now Iím super curious.

    Clone Saga was the longest story of the bunch no doubt but a lot of good characters did come out of that. Also Spider-Man was so red hot with sales due to that story and fans were eating it up. I seriously think people forget just how positive the feedback was for that story when the issues were coming out for the first months. People focus on this urban legend that the CLone Saga was a disaster from start to finish when thatís far from the truth. marvel botched it by getting greedy and trying to milk for way too long which is why things started to get ridiculously out of hand.

  15. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by RD155 View Post
    One More Day? Good moments? Granted I know to each their own and also that not everyone likes a married Spider-Man. However what good moments were in OMD? I think that might be the first time I’ve heard some mention good moments and OMD in the same sentence so now I’m super curious.

    Clone Saga was the longest story of the bunch no doubt but a lot of good characters did come out of that. Also Spider-Man was so red hot with sales due to that story and fans were eating it up. I seriously think people forget just how positive the feedback was for that story when the issues were coming out for the first months. People focus on this urban legend that the CLone Saga was a disaster from start to finish when that’s far from the truth. marvel botched it by getting greedy and trying to milk for way too long which is why things started to get ridiculously out of hand.
    I thought Peter going back in time to earlier in the JMS run was a good dramatic moment. The showdown with Iron Man in the first issue was satisfying, and I liked the moment when Jarvis pays for May's medical expenses, and we see how much it hurts him to see her like that.

    One More Day isn't just a story where Peter and MJ sell their marriage to Mephisto. That's the conclusion to a larger story, which actually may be one of the problems with it (It might be more satisfying if it was entirely about Peter, MJ and Mephisto.)

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