All Might vs. Berserker (Fate Stay/Night)

[Dark Soul # 7]

The greatest hero of the MHA-verse takes on the Berserker class version of Heracles from the Fate-series.

No time limit for All Might. He gets all his feats from the Vigilante manga and the Two Heroes movie in addition to the stuff he's done in the regular series (they don't really contradict anything he's already done anyway).

Berserker gets all his feats from the visual novel, Grand Order game and the various anime adaptations of the story. Assume he has a top tier master giving him the mana required.

No ring outs.

If it's too one-sided in All Might favor we'll give him the three hour time limit he had at the start of the series.

[BitVyper]

Unless Grand Order gives him an absolutely massive upgrade, I can't think of anything to give Berserker a chance here.

[Harbinger19]

I’m not completely up on All Might feats but if the time limit’s in effect, maybe Herc can dodge until All Might’s done.

IIRC, Herc should be faster (maybe blitz-faster) unless All Might got some solidly supersonic reaction feats that I’m not aware of. Bullet-timing’s not real impressive in Nasuverse by scaling.

[BitVyper]

I’m not completely up on All Might feats but if the time limit’s in effect, maybe Herc can dodge until All Might’s done.

IIRC, Herc should be faster (maybe blitz-faster) unless All Might got some solidly supersonic reaction feats that I’m not aware of. Bullet-timing’s not real impressive in Nasuverse by scaling.

Does he actually have any bullet time feats? The only time I can think of where he looked especially quick was when fighting an extremely depowered Saber. But I don't know Grand Order very well except for having played the first couple chapters of it.

If he was of remotely comparable speed to everyone else, I really doubt Archer would have done as much damage to him as he did.

[Siriel]

Does he actually have any bullet time feats?

Any Servant that can fight other Servants in close combat have to be bullet timers pretty much by default.

The only one in Fate/Stay Night who could perhaps reasonably be argued to not be at that level is Medea.

If he was of remotely comparable speed to everyone else, I really doubt Archer would have done as much damage to him as he did.

He is explicitly faster than everyone else. Archer's offscreen showing is incredible plot armor that doesn't make any sense with their stated abilities and contradicts their respective performance whenever they fight someone onscreen.

[Harbinger19]

Does he actually have any bullet time feats? The only time I can think of where he looked especially quick was when fighting an extremely depowered Saber. But I don't know Grand Order very well except for having played the first couple chapters of it

Heh, I don’t know Grand Order well either.

Herc doesn’t bullet-time but Saber parries autocannons in Zero (She has C or B rank agility compared to Herc’s A)

For me it’s really more of a presentation thing than a direct feats thing; there’s people in Tsukihime and Kara no Kyoukai who treat bullets like jokes and by Word of Nasu all they can do against average Servants (not top-tiers like Herc) is “run away fighting a defensive battle for a bit.”

Shiki Ryougi for instance, has feats like running around Asagami Fujino in a huge circle faster-than-the-eye, slicing Araya (stated though not shown to be a bullet-timer) and cutting his arm off before he could react, having a car bomb explode like 10 ft away from her and jumping out of the way without a scratch after it goes off...

And Nasu was like “LOL no, Ryougi can’t fight Servants.” The implication is she can’t even touch them in terms of physicals since her power is basically a one-hit kill (with qualifiers, admittedly.)

Anyway, apparently someone that fast can’t even retreat from B-rank Servants. Nasu seems to say you need to be Ciel speed to even fight a defensive battle against middling Servants, and my breakdown of Tsukihime’s speed would put Ciel in Cass Cain/Danny Rand territory or more.

[BitVyper]

Any Servant that can fight other Servants in close combat have to be bullet timers pretty much by default.

I mean even Dragon Ball characters are expected to have SOME kind of speed feats to show they belong in their tiers.

He is explicitly faster than everyone else.

Really? When does he demonstrate it? I'm not saying he doesn't, just like the only time I can think of where that was ever a thing was when he kicked Saber's ass, which is not much of a feat given that this is when Saber was depowered enough to also have trouble with Shinji-Medusa.

Anyway, if he's bullet-time... depends on his strength feats, I guess. All Might has taken a lot of punishment, and even having part of his torso destroyed didn't stop him.

[Siriel]

I mean even Dragon Ball characters are expected to have SOME kind of speed feats to show they belong in their tiers.

Off the top of my head;

Saber deflects bullets from twin machine guns that have explicitly been massively enhanced by becoming Noble Phantasms (Zero), Shirou's Saber casually counters Hassan's daggers that are explicitly stated to be as fast or faster than bullets (F/SN), Cu does the same and Sakura's Rider casually dodges them from a situation of being surrounded by them, Dead Apostles are directly stated to be able to dodge bullets after they're fired and are consistently noted to be weaker than Servants (WoG and demonstrated in Strange Fake), Hansa is directly stated to be too weak to fight any notable Servant but he can still throw stones faster than sound (Strange Fake), Gilgamesh was able to parry an arrow that was faster than lightning from about ten feet away (kind of an outlier, also from Strange Fake) and Arjuna shoots Billy the Kid's bullets out of the air with arrows and notes that guns are useless against Servants (F/GO).

Bullets being jokes to Servants is fairly consistent across the franchise and only becomes moreso as you move to the later works that do a better job of showing what seemed to be just hyperbole in Stay Night.

None of these people are capable of blitzing each other or any other Servant aside from the ones that are explicitly outliers in their weakness.

So it's a case where you have a category of beings who're expected to have a certain degree of abilities and who demonstrates it when it's relevant; requiring every single one of them to get shot at to demonstrate that they can dodge bullets is a burden of evidence that usually doesn't get applied to such groups.

Really? When does he demonstrate it? I'm not saying he doesn't, just like the only time I can think of where that was ever a thing was when he kicked Saber's ass, which is not much of a feat given that this is when Saber was depowered enough to also have trouble with Shinji-Medusa.

Saber only had trouble with Rider when they were running up the side of a building because Rider is great in that environment, this is directly called out. She was otherwise winning even when fighting inside of Rider's boundary field and isn't described as having any trouble while Shirou beats up Shinji.

When they fight on even ground in Heaven's Feel, she beats Rider in one hit.

Additionally while Shirou's Saber is much weaker in terms of magical energy and physical strength, I don't believe anything establishes her as significantly slower than any of her other appearances.

[BitVyper]

The Heaven's Feel one is great (honestly just a beautiful scene in the new movies), but it still comes off as a bit of a low point for Rider. I think she was out feeding at that moment? She might have been down on mana. Anyway, the point is taken, though I still find Berserker's case a bit dubious.

All Might's fast enough to deal with guys who can pull off disappearing, but not bullet time, so Berserker should be getting at least a few hits before All Might can do something like put him in the air with a shockwave to mitigate the difference. All Might's taken having his own strength reversed on him and being hit hard enough to smash him through multiple concrete buildings (hard enough to collapse a couple of them IIRC), while carrying only the dying embers of One For All. His own punches do things like change weather patterns and cause massive shockwaves, so I entirely expect he can kill Berserker (as many times as necessary) if he gets the chance, and it just comes down to if he does or doesn't.

Additionally while Shirou's Saber is much weaker in terms of magical energy and physical strength, I don't believe anything establishes her as significantly slower than any of her other appearances.

She goes from Archer being a legitimate threat to her, to pretty much lolstomping the guy (favourite scene in UBW) when she makes a pact with Tohsaka, to where Archer's only real recourse is to threaten something suicidal that won't kill HER but will kill Shirou. Plus we see how much of a difference mana makes for Rider; her switching from Shinji to Sakura makes her a completely different animal, to the point of being able to put up a solid fight against full power Saber. Mostly though, we absolutely know that Saber is self-moderating a lot to avoid consuming mana because she knows she can't get it back from Shirou and she eats through what she has pretty quick. It calls into question any comparative feats based on her when she's operating under Shirou. That said, the bit with Hassan's daggers is pretty good, so I'm willing to accept that she's still at least bullet time.

[Siriel]

She goes from Archer being a legitimate threat to her, to pretty much lolstomping the guy when she makes a pact with Tohsaka, to where Archer's only real recourse is to do threaten something suicidal that won't kill HER but will kill Shirou.

She defeated Archer easily at the start of the VN too. Archer was only a legitimate threat to her after she was empty of magical energy because Medea stole her contract and she spent a long time fighting off a Command Seal to obey her. That ordeal is directly attributed as the reason why Archer could beat her;

The sword isn't even in Saber's hands now.
After resisting Caster's Command Spell for so long, she has no magical energy left.
Unable even to breathe, she puts her hands on the floor, desperately trying to hold her disappearing body together.

After she gained a contract with Rin, she defeated him not by any superior show of speed to what she had before, but by overpowering him with physical strength, up to and including hammering him into the ground. It's even noted that he can still block her attacks, it's just the only thing he can do because she's damaging his arms and swords.

Plus we see how much of a difference mana makes for Rider, here switching from Shinji to Sakura makes her a completely different animal.

Very different cases. Shinji doesn't even have a magic circuit or a real contract.

[The Drunkard Kid]

I mean, Shirou, Rin, and Saber(who had just been moderately recharged by Shirou after being reduced to running on fumes) were able to react to and keep up with Berserker in reflex-speed, and killed him around 6-7 times in one shot of Caliburn, so I can see Archer managing to match that, especially if he could bring out Unlimited Blade Works or land a sucker-punch with a Broken Phantasm. If he was willing to kill Ilya, he could probably snipe her or catch her in the backblast of an attack to take out Berserker with no problem, and could probably still use her as bait to lure Berserker into being a demi-human shield. For what it's worth, Shirou was able to deflect hails of swords fired at him by Archer and Gilgamesh.

As for humans being unable to keep up in general, Kuzuki was and to catch Saber off guard and nearly tear out her throat, though she was underestimating him and it explicitly wouldn't work a second time. (Edit: I just remembered that Kuzuki was actually being boosted by Medea, but that doesn't seem to be something that Medea specialized in. I also just remembered that Saber is essentially a normal human being, and Sasaki Kojirou Assassin was actually templated off of a normal human who had figured out how to fight at that level and use Tsubame Gaeshi by himself.)

Also, slightly OT, but I take the whole "Tohno/Ryougi Shiki can't kill Servants" word of God thing with a grain of salt until we actually see them fight Servants, since the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception work just fine on spiritual entities and, especially in Ryougi's case, draws upon a power far greater than any Servant. Heck, in Fate/Extra (which is explicitly a separate universe that diverged from the base universe at least as far back as the creation of the moon), Ryougi's a bonus boss who had killed either dozens or hundreds of Servants.

[Twickster]

Also, slightly OT, but I take the whole "Tohno/Ryougi Shiki can't kill Servants" word of God thing with a grain of salt until we actually see them fight Servants, since the Mystic Eyes of Death Perception work just fine on spiritual entities and, especially in Ryougi's case, draws upon a power far greater than any Servant. Heck, in Fate/Extra (which is explicitly a separate universe that diverged from the base universe at least as far back as the creation of the moon), Ryougi's a bonus boss who had killed either dozens or hundreds of Servants.

I think the point is not that she can't *kill* Servants, but that she can't *hit* Servants.

[The Drunkard Kid]

I think the point is not that she can't *kill* Servants, but that she can't *hit* Servants.

That was more of an OT aside about Nasu's Word of God that the Shikis' Mystic Eyes of Death Perception wouldn't work on Servants, which makes no sense and is countermanded in at least Fate/Extra. Actually, anyone know if either of the Shikis' are Servants in Grand Order?

But I hold that, if Shirou is able to react to the likes of Berserker, then so should either Shiki.