What would the comics have been like if Gwen had lived?

[Ursalink]

There was a What If...? issue where it showed what it had happened if Spider-Man would have saved Gwen Stacy. Even although it had a look of a happy ending, it ended all ruined because of Jerk Jonah Jameson and Norman Osborn's final wildcard.

[AlexCampy89]

I agree that this describes what Gwen came to represent at the time she died. But I don't think that's how she started as.

1) Gwen Stacy was created by Steve Ditko primarily. Ditko wrote her as a vapid, cranky, and snobby beauty queen who came to college on social capital rather than merit. She was shown largely unsympathetically in his run.

2) Most of the readership preferred Mary Jane over Gwen and consistently said the same to Lee and Romita Sr. in letters and so on.

So I don't know if Gwen represents what the "average boy" (or girl, we forget or neglect Spider-Man's female readership) wanted. I think Lee wroe Gwen making some kind of dated assumptions and never entirely understood where things stood with his readership.

Yes, authors changed the nature and the attitude of some characters and Ditko's Gwen Stacy is for sure one of the most explicit examples of this, but keep in mind that during Ditko's stint MJ was basically a name-dropped, random faceless cameo and it took Romita to give her a full appearance. Once MJ was established as the party girl, Lee felt that she needed to be counterbalanced with a more serious and "pure" love interest.
Also, I am not denying the importance of female readership of today, but in 1973? C'mon, Spider-Man was aimed mostly at boys. If the female readership reached 10% back then, it was a miracle.

Yeah, but I don't think anyone really saw things that way at the time.

Of course the audience loved more the trasgressive nature of MJ rather than the holier-than-thou attitude of Gwen, but adulthood is traumatic for teens and Peter Pan adults.
The audience was shocked by Gwen's death because it was the ultimate evidence that "perfect" love (innocence) does not exist, not even in escapist literature like comic books, or even worse, if that kind of love exists, it is deemed to be short lived and sooner than rather someone or something is going to strip it away from you (in this case Green Goblin could be seen as a metaphor for a random killer, illness, tragic fatality like car accidents, etc).

The nature of this change was so traumatic that people sent death threats to Lee and the rest of the crew.
So MJ was the most loved, but apparently MJ's death couldn't have achieved the same reaction.

Marvel's readership and target audience was more around 13-19 years and older rather than 8 years old. Lee wrote for the intelligent and mature 8-10 years old but he largely targeted a college-going audience and older readership rather than young kids.

No arguments there, but my point is that in 1973 the vast majority of readers of ASM 121-122 were people approaching adulthood and.... "responsability". So the story was aimed at them, mostly, and was more traumatic to them for that exact reason.

Some would argue that the industry is still "stale, lame, repetitive, silly" today. And ten years after Gwen Stacy's death, Alan Moore wrote much the same about Marvel.

(https://geektyrant.com/news/2012/9/2...lee-essay.html)
"The worst thing was that everything had ground to a halt. The books had stopped developing. If you take a look at a current Spider-Man comic, you’ll find that he’s maybe twenty years old, he worries a lot about whats right and what’s wrong, and he has a lot of trouble with his girlfriends. Do you know what Spider-Man was doing fifteen years ago? Well, he was about nineteen years old, he worried a lot about what was right and what was wrong and he had a lot of trouble with his girlfriends."
-- Alan Moore, "Blinded by the Hype", 1983.

Well, while I agree with Alan Moore, I think that "The night Gwen Stacy died" and the beginning of the Bronze Age Kickstarted the "maturity" of the industry and made possible stories like Watchmen and V for Vendetta. Maybe those stories were already there, but were not aimed at a mainstream audience and couldn't have reached such a widespread consensus.
So, even though he kinda hates Spider-Man and in general the super-hero genre, I still believe that Moore owes a lot to Spider-Man, especially ASM 121-122.
Yes, the industry today is boring, repetitive and lame, but in the past it had some great peaks that wouldn't be possible without "The Night Gwen Stacy died" and "Goblin's Last Round". Sticking strictly with Spider-Man, stories like The Sin Eater/Jean DeWolfe saga, Hobgoblin, Venom, etc wouldn't be possible or would not have had the same impact.

[Inversed]

I'm of two minds on that. I think it could have been fun but I also think it would be pushing a relationship dynamic that wasn't really there to begin with.

That's what's good about alternate universes, you don't have to be held down by the exact limitations of what only what happened in canon, and can have fun with a cute little concept. You could also see either of them fitting both the Betty and Veronica roles, so you could use it as a nice twist.

Although later in his career he definitely became probably one of the staunchest Peter/MJ shippers of anyone in Marvel publishing .

It's almost like Stan Lee was also a master businessman and promoter and knew how to take advantage of any situation

[Frontier]

That's what's good about alternate universes, you don't have to be held down by the exact limitations of what only what happened in canon, and can have fun with a cute little concept. You could also see either of them fitting both the Betty and Veronica roles, so you could use it as a nice twist.

I get that. Again, I would be interested in it myself but I feel like it would just be perpetuating more false preconceptions about the relationship dynamics of that era...

It's almost like Stan Lee was also a master businessman and promoter and knew how to take advantage of any situation

Or Stan ships what he ships .

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Stan Lee only wrote Mary Jane as the romantic lead after Gwen had been killed off.

In the newspaper strip. Which wasn't canon and in which he had the freedom to choose on who to introduce and not, and he still decided to go with Mary Jane rather than bring Gwen into newspaper continuity. He didn't bring Betty Brant either.

FWIW, I am not sure that Peter and MJ would get married if Gwen had lived either. I am only certain about immediate runs, and so on. Anything longer than that it's hard to tell. Mary Jane's backstory for instance which played such a huge role in the buildup to the marriage came out by accident, and often contrary to the intentions of the people who created that (Wolfman, Stern, Defalco). If any of those writers didn't participate in writing ASM at the time they did, then one part of the equation changes.

I am relatively certain that if Gwen had lived, Conway would have broken her and Peter and move on with Mary Jane. The Superman Vs. TASM crossover would happen since that's not conditioned on Gwen living or dying. And if Peter is dating MJ at the time, she would show up there. The Newspaper Strip also will happen in 1977 since again not conditioned on Gwen living or dying.

Would Stan Lee feature Gwen in his newspaper strip knowing that the romance between Peter and Gwen is now 5 years gone and as per the fleeting demographic rule at the time practiced by publishers, editors and so on, unlikely to be remembered except by a few. Lee's desire for a general audience for the strip, as he said in Comic-Creators, it had a bigger audience on a per-eyeball basis than the 616 comic and a non-comics audience to boot,...he would most likely introduce the most well known and culturally familiar characters in Spider-Man. And that meant Peter, Jonah and Mary Jane. Characters who are provably popular already gotten exposure and so on.

There was a What If...? issue where it showed what it had happened if Spider-Man would have saved Gwen Stacy. Even although it had a look of a happy ending, it ended all ruined because of Jerk Jonah Jameson and Norman Osborn's final wildcard.

What If comics are generally jokey and not-so-serious riffs that exist to validate the prevailing status-quo rather than explore a true alternate scenario. When Gwen died, Marvel editors in the letter's pages spun a lot of wheels about why Gwen had to die and not one of them were sincere reasons -- i.e. she and Peter would have married and so on. There was no plot and plan in place for that to happen.

Well, while I agree with Alan Moore, I think that "The night Gwen Stacy died" and the beginning of the Bronze Age Kickstarted the "maturity" of the industry and made possible stories like Watchmen and V for Vendetta. Maybe those stories were already there, but were not aimed at a mainstream audience and couldn't have reached such a widespread consensus. So, even though he kinda hates Spider-Man and in general the super-hero genre, I still believe that Moore owes a lot to Spider-Man, especially ASM 121-122. Yes, the industry today is boring, repetitive and lame, but in the past it had some great peaks that wouldn't be possible without "The Night Gwen Stacy died" and "Goblin's Last Round". Sticking strictly with Spider-Man, stories like The Sin Eater/Jean DeWolfe saga, Hobgoblin, Venom, etc wouldn't be possible or would not have had the same impact.

V for Vendetta is a British Comic by British creators and inspired by the UK comics scene which had a significant non-superhero genre flourishing there. Stuff like 2000 AD, Luther Arkwright and numerous others. Watchmen was derived from Charlton Comics characters and stories created before 1973. Moore was also shaped and inspired by stuff like underground comics and experimental stuff.

Spider-Man's major influence on WATCHMEN was Steve Ditko's art in his early run. Dave Gibbons said that Ditko's use of the 9 Panel Grid there and his surreal use of New York was one of his major influences. You know it's funny because thanks to Watchmen, the 9 Panel Grid is associated with "intellectual" comics and so on, there was a gag to that effect in a Deadpool story in Marvel Comics #1000 and Zdarsky said that his use of the 9 Panel Grid in LIFE STORY#3 is a homage to Watchmen but that all comes from Ditko's use of it in Amazing Spider-Man.

[AlexCampy89]

.

V for Vendetta is a British Comic by British creators and inspired by the UK comics scene which had a significant non-superhero genre flourishing there. Stuff like 2000 AD, Luther Arkwright and numerous others. Watchmen was derived from Charlton Comics characters and stories created before 1973. Moore was also shaped and inspired by stuff like underground comics and experimental stuff.

Spider-Man's major influence on WATCHMEN was Steve Ditko's art in his early run. Dave Gibbons said that Ditko's use of the 9 Panel Grid there and his surreal use of New York was one of his major influences. You know it's funny because thanks to Watchmen, the 9 Panel Grid is associated with "intellectual" comics and so on, there was a gag to that effect in a Deadpool story in Marvel Comics #1000 and Zdarsky said that his use of the 9 Panel Grid in LIFE STORY#3 is a homage to Watchmen but that all comes from Ditko's use of it in Amazing Spider-Man.

Look, English is not my native language, so I suppose something went lost in translation.

I do not know the British comic scene before 1973 and, as I wrote earlier, I don't doubt those kind of stories existed before, I'm just saying that ASM 121-122 had such a mainstream, widespread cultural and social impact that elevated comic books as a true form of art with way more "daring" and "sensitive" topics. And, on the other side of the spectrum, a better good will of receiving this kind of stories without censorships nor controversies.


Yeah, Watchmen is largely inspired by the Charlton stories and characters, but did those stories share the same level of psychological drama? The same moral dilemma pending over Super-heroes and their impact on society? The importance of consequences rather than actions (after all Spider-Man killed Gwen)?


Those are basically original points and themes that the comic books were often too afraid to cover or covered them tangentially (at least in the American scene, don't know about the British one, but they are pretty much against Super-heroes there).
Rorschach, by refusing Ozymandias' plan, basically sticks to the classic "I don't bow , I don't bend" trope. Ozymandias is the exacerbating concept of "great power, great responsibility, little care of the consequences as long as a long lasting good may be reached ".

[Revolutionary_Jack]

...I don't doubt those kind of stories existed before, I'm just saying that ASM 121-122 had such a mainstream, widespread cultural and social impact that elevated comic books as a true form of art with way more "daring" and "sensitive" topics. And, on the other side of the spectrum, a better good will of receiving this kind of stories without censorships nor controversies.

That's a fair point. It can be argued that Gwen Stacy dying gave a reference point to writers and editors on what was too controversial to do and allow.

(after all Spider-Man killed Gwen)?

Within the narrative itself, no. The whole issue of the "neck Snap" thing was a gag that Conway slipped that got out of hand.

Tom DeFalco: In your mind, was Gwen still alive until her neck snapped?
Gerry Conway: "Could be! Honestly, I don't know — I'm not sure why I added that sound effect, or what I meant to accomplish; as I say, it was the result of a subconscious decision. Consciously, I've always thought that she was already dead when Spider-Man caught her. But if that's true, why did I put the 'SNAP' in? What was the purpose of it? Spider-Man couldn't hear it. It was strictly for the audience. What was I trying to say? That 'SNAP' came from a pure artistic impulse. It was not calculated or part of a master plan to mess with the readers' heads...That said, I'd sure like to believe she was already dead."
— Comic-Creators on Spider-Man, Titan Books, 2004 Edition, Page 47-48.

Rorschach, by refusing Ozymandias' plan, basically sticks to the classic "I don't bow , I don't bend" trope. Ozymandias is the exacerbating concept of "great power, great responsibility, little care of the consequences as long as a long lasting good may be reached ".

Rorschach, per Moore, was inspired by Ditko's objectivist vigilantes including this sociopath called Mr. A. And Moore also said, apocryphally, that Rorschach was "Batman without the excuses".

I don't think Moore would be too impressed with Gwen's death because killing off love interests for manpain is something that Moore doesn't do. That's not to say that traumatic and terrible stuff don't happen to women in his comics but in general, I can't think of many instances where Moore outright kills off major love interests or girlfriends. Frank Miller is more notorious for doing that.

[Lee]

In the newspaper strip. Which wasn't canon and in which he had the freedom to choose on who to introduce and not, and he still decided to go with Mary Jane rather than bring Gwen into newspaper continuity.

As mentioned earlier, when it came to the 1990s cartoon, Stan suggested that they shouldn't use Gwen, because he didn't think it was a good idea to get the audience invested in a character who was dead in the comics.

Does it not stand to reason that this was the thought process behind the newspaper strip too?

He didn't bring Betty Brant either.

Betty was brought in on day 4 of the comic strip. She was the second supporting cast member introduced, after J Jonah Jameson.

Lee and Romita brought back all their old supporting cast - Jameson, Betty, Joe Robertson, Aunt May, Aunt Anna, Mary Jane, Flash Thompson, Harry Osborn.

But you're adamant that Gwen's absence had absolutely nothing to do with the fact that she was dead?

[Snoop Dogg]

If Gwen survived the Conway run then another writer would have just written her as a more interesting character, which is how all 60's female characters evolved, and she might have become the default love interest.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Does it not stand to reason that this was the thought process behind the newspaper strip too?

Perhaps. But again we are comparing 1977 to 1992-1993. In 1977, the reaction to Gwen Stacy's death and that backlash had well and truly been laid to rest. By 1993, it was seen as a classic story and that occasionally led Lee to say he ok'd the idea and so on.

But you're adamant...

Considering how persistent you've been to try cnd get me to agree on this, not sure if I'm the one who's adamant.

The fact is that Gwen Stacy got multiple chances. Lee made her the female lead for some 50 issues or so, and in that time she didn't gain any real popularity or respect as a character. That's a big push and Lee did all he could to put the thumb on the scales in her favor. After multiple attempts to make her work, and in a hypothetical situation, where Peter and Gwen break up in the main comic and move on to Mary Jane to (most likely) general popularity and acclaim, I don't see Lee repeating himself in the newspaper strip. There's also the five year rule and so on.

Betty Brant showed up in the strip for sure, but she and Peter didn't date in the newspaper strip IIRC.

If Gwen survived the Conway run then another writer would have just written her as a more interesting character, which is how all 60's female characters evolved, and she might have become the default love interest.

The question is which writer? Because Wolfman and Stern would have no interest in her. Mantlo maybe?

[Lee]

I wonder why they never used Green Goblin in the newspaper strip. Must have been because they thought he was a **** failure character who sucked - there's no other possible explanation!

[Revolutionary_Jack]

I wonder why they never used Green Goblin in the newspaper strip. Must have been because they thought he was a **** failure character who sucked - there's no other possible explanation!

Green Goblin did show up in the strip.

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[Lee]

That was a flashback story from 2002.

Why did it take 25 years to use Green Goblin, and only in flashback form?? Mystery!!!!

[Frontier]

If Gwen survived the Conway run then another writer would have just written her as a more interesting character, which is how all 60's female characters evolved, and she might have become the default love interest.

Most of the "serious" Silver Age love interests got written out of their books though. They only got made to look like the default love interests thanks to the movies or writers making them into Superheroes (which is what happened anyways).

Gwen's death might have saved Betty from that fate in hindsight...

[Celgress]

Here is an idea a friend (MayoTango131 on Fanfiction.net) and I hashed out for my Marvel/DC Crossover story "Convergence Point" (https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1319924...vergence-Point) of what might have happened if Gwen lived (with the absence of Superman, naturally) -

Gwen Stacy eventually becomes the CEO of Oscorp after everyone realized that Norman is a lunatic. In this reality, Gwen Stacy was rescued from the bridge fall by Superman (who is good friends with Spider-Man), but her relationship with Peter died because she never forgives him for the death of her father and him not telling her the truth of his double life. Her buying control of Oscorp is delicious revenge. Rumors say swirl that Gwen is using company resources to find a way to obtain superpowers, foreshadowing an alterant Ghost Spider.