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  1. #16
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    There'd be no clone saga(s), for one thing. No Spider-Gwen either.

    I think Stan would have almost certainly used both Gwen and Mary Jane in the comic strip, if she hadn't been killed off. Gwen as the romantic lead, and Mary Jane as the rival. There's a strong chance Peter and Gwen would have gotten married instead.
    The marriage happened because at a Chicago Convention where both Lee and Shooter attended, crowds asked Lee if he would have Peter marry MJ, to which Lee said he was okay with that and then put Shooter on the spot, to which he said yes too and that then got picked up, leaving the two crowd-pleasers with a shot at earning a lot of love.

    So the request was for MJ specifically to marry Peter and not Spider-Man marry just anyone.

    It's unlikely Gwen would have gotten the same backing and popularity, not if Lee wrote Gwen in the strip anyway like he wrote the one in the comics.

    The newspaper strip came out in 1977 likewise. That was one year after 1976's Superman versus TASM crossover written by Conway in which MJ and Jameson were the supporting characters who accompanied Spider-Man cementing them as the most famous and representative supporting characters in the mythos. Lee was quite aware of the optics of that, so he might well have decided to go with Mary Jane anyway in his strip.

  2. #17
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    I think Gwen's death had far reaching consequences throughout comics. It can be argued that it was one of the precursors for the Dark Age of the 80s and the 90s. Without it, it can be argued that those may have happened a bit later than they did.

  3. #18
    Mighty Member Spider-Chan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    There'd be no clone saga(s), for one thing. No Spider-Gwen either.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Chan View Post
    You all know you like both of those things.

    Well, maybe not the Clone Saga when it was happening, that was a special kind of hell.

  5. #20
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Honestly, I really doubt Gwen still being alive would be something as small as "She'd fade into the background" or "She'd marry Peter eventualy", for better and worse, she started this trend of killing loved ones in comic books, that would change so many things in comics that have nothing to do with Spidey and Marvel itself if it didn't happen, that is until someone else killed a loved one eventualy, but just thinking that if Gwen didn't die, the type of stories comics have could be really different for a while.

  6. #21
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Honestly, I really doubt Gwen still being alive would be something as small as "She'd fade into the background" or "She'd marry Peter eventualy", for better and worse, she started this trend of killing loved ones in comic books, that would change so many things in comics that have nothing to do with Spidey and Marvel itself if it didn't happen, that is until someone else killed a loved one eventualy, but just thinking that if Gwen didn't die, the type of stories comics have could be really different for a while.
    The impact Gwen's death had on the turn towards "Grim and Gritty" and darkness and so on has been exaggerated in my view. Emotionally it had an impact on readers of a certain age. That much is the case.

    In terms of actual influence, that's iffy.

    For instance, did Gwen Stacy's death had the same impact as say Jean Grey's death in The Dark Phoenix Saga. When Dark Phoenix Saga hit the stands that was a real heartbreaker and had a huge impact. Even Alan Moore praised it. Was that inspired by Gwen's death? Unlikely. Did Gwen Stacy's death inspire Frank Miller killing Elektra in his run on Daredevil? I doubt it.

    It's a little known fact that in the '60s, DC planned to kill Iris West (https://www.cbr.com/flash-iris-west-...nearly-killed/), but they nixed the story at the time. Had that gone through, Iris West and not Gwen Stacy would be the "first girlfriend who died". So the idea itself was in the air and not something that Gwen needed to get ahead off for it to spin.

  7. #22
    Incredible Member AngelJD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inversed View Post
    I think a more blatant Betty & Veronica-type relationship is what I think those 3 could've easily morphed into in the comic strip.

    (Also side note, I'm still really disappointed they haven't made some kind of MJ & Gwen book in the style of a Betty & Veronica digest, think that would be so much fun)
    As a Multiverse MJ and Gwen fan I would love a series like this possible. Furthermore to mix things up and taking some influences from the movie 'The Nice Guys' have them working together to investigate something that starts small and just gets bigger plus show them not being perfect and making tons of mistakes, bad choices, and with some dark comedy.

    As for this topic we will never know. For Conway it's very high certainly that he would break them up and have Peter starting a relationship with MJ. But HOW he would of done it and if other writers would of taking inspiration or work with or against it is unknown. With Gwen possibly still living who knows what she could of been. Another writer might of changed her for the better or worse. She might of become a superhero or supervillain. She might of become 'Venom' instead of brock (odds low on that however as Venom was going to be a woman but the Marvel heads didn't want Peter fighting a woman or could see a woman being his greatest threat at the time).

    'Spider-Gwen' might still exist but be different than how we know her (if Aunt May can be a spider hero and MJ has had maybe 3 times shown to a Spider-Woman in the Multiverse then a Gwen version(s) would be no expectation). Gwen might of become somehow the Black Cat (Hero policeman father and villain at first robber daughter) or many other unlimited possibilities. With her still around a domdomo and butterfly effect will occur that goes beyond the Spider books.

    Both MJ and Gwen dumps Peter and marries each other.

    Outside of the fanfiction ideas and what-ifs worlds this can make it's impossible to know and we can only guess with small certainty for Conway's run but many details missing. If Gwen was continued to be used by different writers how they would change her from their perceptions and stories to a point the Gwen of 2019 would be different from the Gwen of July 1973 just as how all of the Spider-man cast has shifted since the 70's and changed to become new people. So many who dislike her on this forum might love the alternate world where she never died because writers changed her to ways that she would be welcomed while others like like her might hate her. This is a impossible question to answer. But the story ideas and unlimited and even wild possibilities to imagine might be fun to read.

    Lacour had it that somehow a Gwen (Earth-617) that was basically 616 Gwen but shifted when she met by chance Earth-65 Gwen and from that encounter madea domino effect that resulted in that Gwen living and bonded to a symobite. How Gwen goes from A to B or even more accurate in the wild world of stories A to P then to B then to S then to A then to Y as a character and stories and interactions can be anything.

  8. #23
    Mighty Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The impact Gwen's death had on the turn towards "Grim and Gritty" and darkness and so on has been exaggerated in my view. Emotionally it had an impact on readers of a certain age. That much is the case.

    In terms of actual influence, that's iffy.

    For instance, did Gwen Stacy's death had the same impact as say Jean Grey's death in The Dark Phoenix Saga. When Dark Phoenix Saga hit the stands that was a real heartbreaker and had a huge impact. Even Alan Moore praised it. Was that inspired by Gwen's death? Unlikely. Did Gwen Stacy's death inspire Frank Miller killing Elektra in his run on Daredevil? I doubt it.

    It's a little known fact that in the '60s, DC planned to kill Iris West (https://www.cbr.com/flash-iris-west-...nearly-killed/), but they nixed the story at the time. Had that gone through, Iris West and not Gwen Stacy would be the "first girlfriend who died". So the idea itself was in the air and not something that Gwen needed to get ahead off for it to spin.
    I made it quite clear that killing a love interest would happen eventualy, if Gwen wasn't the first one then it'd be someone else, and some other love interest would be the character most overrate while knowing nothing about them, just pointing out that because she's the first one then it may have influenced in fridging other love interests.

    Interesting that Iris was planned to be killed back in the 60's though, although there's a chance that they would reveal she didn't really die afterwards as a cop out (Something like that was even suggested to be done with Gwen by using clones, but Conway didn't want to do something so cheap and nonsensical) and she could be the one starting more nonsensical death and resurrections for shock value so early, although it's also possible they'd stick with it and Iris would just be the "original" love interest to die, kinda fun to think about those things.
    Last edited by Lukmendes; 08-31-2019 at 09:45 PM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The impact Gwen's death had on the turn towards "Grim and Gritty" and darkness and so on has been exaggerated in my view. Emotionally it had an impact on readers of a certain age. That much is the case.

    In terms of actual influence, that's iffy.

    For instance, did Gwen Stacy's death had the same impact as say Jean Grey's death in The Dark Phoenix Saga. When Dark Phoenix Saga hit the stands that was a real heartbreaker and had a huge impact. Even Alan Moore praised it. Was that inspired by Gwen's death? Unlikely. Did Gwen Stacy's death inspire Frank Miller killing Elektra in his run on Daredevil? I doubt it.

    It's a little known fact that in the '60s, DC planned to kill Iris West (https://www.cbr.com/flash-iris-west-...nearly-killed/), but they nixed the story at the time. Had that gone through, Iris West and not Gwen Stacy would be the "first girlfriend who died". So the idea itself was in the air and not something that Gwen needed to get ahead off for it to spin.
    None of this refutes Gwen's death having an impact. Alan Moore not praising the Death of Gwen Stacy doesn't say anything other than Moore having nothing to say about it. And DC having plans to kill off Iris is moot when those plans never materialized.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 09-01-2019 at 01:54 AM.

  10. #25
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Their relationship should have maintained, except not gone to marriage and children. This is something a lot of people disagree with but I do agree with the premise that Peter Parker should be kept at a young and non-definitive. Comics are a never-ending story and there’s a fine line between allowing the characters in this medium to evolve and evolving them too much. That said, having Peter be in a relationship with Gwen in the same way he was with Mary Jane prior to the marriage should not have affected major plot points except Gwen would be there in MJ’s place.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    The marriage happened because at a Chicago Convention where both Lee and Shooter attended, crowds asked Lee if he would have Peter marry MJ, to which Lee said he was okay with that and then put Shooter on the spot, to which he said yes too and that then got picked up, leaving the two crowd-pleasers with a shot at earning a lot of love.

    So the request was for MJ specifically to marry Peter and not Spider-Man marry just anyone.

    It's unlikely Gwen would have gotten the same backing and popularity, not if Lee wrote Gwen in the strip anyway like he wrote the one in the comics.

    The newspaper strip came out in 1977 likewise. That was one year after 1976's Superman versus TASM crossover written by Conway in which MJ and Jameson were the supporting characters who accompanied Spider-Man cementing them as the most famous and representative supporting characters in the mythos. Lee was quite aware of the optics of that, so he might well have decided to go with Mary Jane anyway in his strip.
    Stan Lee preferred Gwen as Peter's love interest. If they had been a couple in the comic strip, a certain percentage of the audience would have grown attached to it. It's not inconceivable that they would have hit upon the marriage idea, since it's one of the most obvious stunts you can pull in a soap opera, and they wanted to increase circulation.

    If that had happened, there's a strong chance Gwen would have ended up the romantic lead in the cartoons of the 1990s and the Spider-Man movies. This forum would be full of people furious that Joe Quesada unmarried Peter and Gwen.

  12. #27
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    None of this refutes Gwen's death having an impact.
    I meant only that the specific example of Gwen's death inspiring people to kill off more love interests. There's no causal link between Gwen's death and other examples. Nothing definitive to say that "If Gwen hadn't died, Jean Grey wouldn't have died, Elektra wouldn't have died."

    Emotionally Gwen's death had an impact on a generation of fans. And that led to Marvels. Marvels would end on a different note without Gwen's death.

    The lasting impact that Gwen's death had is more on the stuff that was tangled with it. Without Gwen's death at the hands of Norman, you most likely would still have the first Green Goblin flying around, so none of the Goblin pretenders, which means no Roderick Kingsley and no Hobgoblin mystery. Likewise, the Punisher was first introduced as a dupe of the Jackal, a mystery villain that Conway created and developed in response to the Gwen Stacy backlash with the intent that the Jackal be the embodiment of Gwen Stacy's fans who Conway saw as necrophiliacs fixated on a character just because she died. Conway said in interviews that he had the idea of Punisher from before, but the fact is that Frank Castle's debut derived from the response to Gwen's death. So no Gwen, most likely no Punisher.

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    That said, having Peter be in a relationship with Gwen in the same way he was with Mary Jane prior to the marriage should not have affected major plot points except Gwen would be there in MJ’s place.
    That's ridiculous. It's simply not possible for Gwen Stacy to be in Mary Jane's place and the story be the same. Gwen hates Spider-Man and blames him for her father's death. She specifically said she could never tolerate Peter being Spider-Man. Without Gwen's death, writers would have to deal with the character's baggage and that means you need to touch those unresolved elements.

  13. #28
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's ridiculous. It's simply not possible for Gwen Stacy to be in Mary Jane's place and the story be the same. Gwen hates Spider-Man and blames him for her father's death. She specifically said she could never tolerate Peter being Spider-Man. Without Gwen's death, writers would have to deal with the character's baggage and that means you need to touch those unresolved elements.
    Same could be said if you were limiting the judgement of MJ’s character to what she was prior to when they killed off Gwen.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Revolutionary_Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lee View Post
    Stan Lee preferred Gwen as Peter's love interest. If they had been a couple in the comic strip, a certain percentage of the audience would have grown attached to it. It's not inconceivable that they would have hit upon the marriage idea, since it's one of the most obvious stunts you can pull in a soap opera, and they wanted to increase circulation.

    If that had happened, there's a strong chance Gwen would have ended up the romantic lead in the cartoons of the 1990s and the Spider-Man movies. This forum would be full of people furious that Joe Quesada unmarried Peter and Gwen.
    The fact is that Mary Jane was popular long before that. She appeared in the 1967 cartoon series while Gwen was a no-show. In the '70s, she appeared in the first intercompany crossover -- Superman vs. TASM -- and by being essentially contrasted with Lois Lane, she was established more or less as Peter's main love interest. Then you had the hostess cakes' commercials. Mary Jane also made a number of cameo appearances outside the pages of Spider-Man.

    And by the way, Gwen Stacy's first actual media appearance was in an episode in the cartoon of the '90s. And her first live-action appearance was the third Raimi film (over his objections since Raimi hated Gwen). So in the prime timeline, Gwen Stacy did appear in the '90s cartoons and the Raimi movies.

    Lee used MJ in his newspaper strip because she was a popular draw and because Lee and Romita sr. (who did the strip in its early years) liked her:

    "Johnny Romita and I were bored with Gwen whenever she appeared in the story. We couldn’t find anything for her to do that would be really interesting. She was just too indescribably nice. As for M.J., she was the one with the personality, the interesting one. She was the one Johnny and I personally cared for, the one we wanted to write about and draw. So, we instinctively knew that she’d be the one our readers would want to read about. And we were right...M.J. seized the dominant female role in our strip, just as powerfully as if she were human. Having once established her character and personality, we couldn’t violate what we had already set up. She was colorful and appealing from the start. No matter how I later tried to play her down, to make her subordinate to Gwen Stacy I couldn’t do it. M.J. always outshone Gwen. If it were a Broadway show, M.J. would have been the one who always grabbed center stage and held it."
    -- Stan Lee in the foreword to a 1986 collection of Spidey newspaper strips, The Best of Spider-Man (Ballantine, NYC)

    1986 by the way is one year before the wedding, and remember that collections and forewords are planned in advance so this is Lee's views unhindered by MJ being the girl who married Peter.

    Quote Originally Posted by KurtW95 View Post
    Same could be said if you were limiting the judgement of MJ’s character to what she was prior to when they killed off Gwen.
    There's no reason she couldn't have developed without Gwen's death especially since Conway was writing her.

  15. #30
    BAMF!!!!! KurtW95's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    There's no reason she couldn't have developed without Gwen's death especially since Conway was writing her.
    That argument is just as hypothetical as mine and basically admits that the only thing that could have driven ”MJ’s evolution” was Gerry Conway’s dislike of Gwen.
    Good Marvel characters- Bring Them Back!!!

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